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UK considers JSF pullout

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Stan View Post
    I some times think that we should hire out our armed forces to the USA, we offer them legitamisy by forming a multi national force when they wanna do something and for that we get payments to keep us up to speed equipment wise.

    It sounds fair to me!
    I want to live on this planet! lol

    I know we could physically get hold of the money needed, but the fact is the Tories seem to be the only party who might actually invest in the forces. Labour would rather spend the money on extra benefits for the jobless I think.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Tarek Morgen View Post
      More then with the Israelis?
      My personal opinion is that they're both equally (un)trustworthy.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Silent Hunter View Post
        Yeah, but it'd be cheaper than the JSF purchase.
        No it wouldn't. In fact, unless you talked the USN into buying some as carrier interceptors, you would probably end up paying double what you would buying JSF.
        F/A-18E/F Super Hornet: The Honda Accord of fighters.

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        • #49
          If the UK did pull out as we have all said before they would be limited to two choice and two alone.

          Navalised eurofighter would be crazy and alot of money

          its F-18 or Rafael - I would personally buy the Rafael - if we could get the French and British working together once in a while it would be nice.

          Seriously though the 2 biggest arms buyers in europe, you would think that we could all stop with the ego's.
          Naval Warfare Discussion is dying on WAB

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          • #50
            From Defencemanagement.com :

            JSF faces axe after costs surge by Ł6bn
            Monday, September 29, 2008

            The troubled Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) project could be headed for the scrap heap after MoD sources confirmed that the latest planning round is reviewing an all out cut to the programme in order to sure up the Ł2bn budget deficit.

            The JSF was being purchased to replace the Harriers which currently fly off of the aircraft carriers. But following revelations that the planes would be delivered at least two years late and Lockheed Martin's admission that the project's costs are spiralling out of control due to faulty financial data, the project became expendable.

            Defence officials are now examining whether they can fly the Eurofighter Typhoon off of the carriers. BAE is conducting a study on the capability of a carrier take off scenario for the planes.

            Britain was scheduled to pay around Ł9bn for 150 JSFs. But earlier this year a US government budget auditor uncovered evidence that Lockheed Martin had fabricated some of their financial data in order to hide cost increases to the project. US lawmakers have labelled the project "the most expensive defence procurement project, ever" after the new allegations amounted to a final bill of over $300bn (Ł167bn).

            MoD officials began to worry that the false financial information would ultimately hurt their bottom line, which it has. The total through life costs of the project are expected to rise by 66 per cent to around Ł15bn, an unreasonable figure considering the MoD's financial predicament.

            Lockheed Martin may have put off potential buyers with their pressure on the sales front. Executives have recently increased their push for countries such as Britain to buy the planes with promises that a set cost would be agreed upon and the company would pay for any increases. JSF executives have gone public in recent weeks attempting to defend the project's troubled finances.

            There are also concerns over the US-UK Defence Trade Cooperation Treaty. Vital parts for the JSF are made in the US and the treaty's ratification would speed up their export to the UK. But the US Senate has put the treaty's ratification on the back burner until next year at the earliest.

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            • #51
              Cut a Ł9 billion project to save Ł2 billion, I wonder if the other Ł7 billon would still be around to spend, or if it would go straight back into the treasury and never see the light of day again?

              At first I was all for cutting the F35, but now I have look into it more, I am dreading this.

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              • #52
                A memory comes to mind...

                Some years ago, Canada was a partner in EH101. They were going to licence-build it for their navy and (I think) the army/CAF. The program would provide lots of work for the canadian aerospace industry as well as job positions. But the program was (if memory serves me right) late and overcost (so what else is new?...). Then election year came on. The opposition vowed to stop the wastefull use of the taxpayers money and, sure enough, when they were elected they promply axed the whole thing.

                Result? Thousands of direct and indirect jobs lost, millions allready spent down the toilet... and the new governement had to pay off massive fines for breach of contract!! ;)

                But the best part is this: a few years ago, they finnally decided to replace the poor overworked Sea Kings. Guess which heli got picked, with minimum canadian industrial involvement?! :))

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by VarSity View Post
                  Cut a Ł9 billion project to save Ł2 billion, I wonder if the other Ł7 billon would still be around to spend, or if it would go straight back into the treasury and never see the light of day again?

                  At first I was all for cutting the F35, but now I have look into it more, I am dreading this.
                  If they do cut it, the only realistic option for the RN will be the Rafale, but the british governement seems to have a knee-jerk reaction even to it's name...

                  And, ofc, the RAF will be left dangling with no replacement for the Harriers...

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                  • #54
                    Don’t get me started on AgustaWestland, that leads me onto future lynx... and that makes me angry :(

                    The Merlin is lovely though.

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                    • #55
                      I have to pull up a few of my fellow Brits on a couple of things.

                      What makes you think that the Tories are going to treat Defence spending any differently from the current incumbents? I remember that they were happily cutting the armed forces prior to the Falklands.

                      When the Tories come to power, do you honestly think they will cut spending on the NHS to spend on lets say Defence? Do that and its bye bye at the next election.

                      While the current Government haven't exactly written a blank cheque on Defence spending, I'm certainly not expecting Defence to be showered with Money If the Tories win.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by jlvfr View Post
                        But the best part is this: a few years ago, they finnally decided to replace the poor overworked Sea Kings. Guess which heli got picked
                        Not the EH-101.

                        A variant of the EH-101, the CH-149 Cormorant, which is actually built off of the civilian model if I remember correctly was chosen as our new search and rescue helicopter and replaced the CH-113 Labrador (a version of the H-46 Sea Knight).

                        When the time came to replace the current CH-124 Sea King fleet used in the maritime helicopter role, the same government who cancelled the initial contract realized it could not replace the contract with the same airframe it cancelled (it could have, but politically it would have been a mess…so we’ll screw the military and troops instead). So the CH-148 Cyclone was born, a version of the Sikorsky H-92 Superhawk.

                        So although your story is completely backwards, we still ended up getting screwed. We are now getting a completely unproven aircraft to fulfill our maritime helicopter requirement (the program is over budget and 3 years behind currently btw) that no other military operator currently uses. Also, we loose commonality between our small helicopter fleets by using the EH-101 and the S-92.

                        In my opinion the EH-101 should have been bought to fulfill the search and rescue role, the maritime helicopter role, AND the army medium/heavy lift role where we are supposedly going to get a handful of CH-47F's. Three roles could have been filled by one common airframe with only a reduction of capability in the army role (and in some ways I think the CH-47 is too much aircraft for us anyways). Just my two cents.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Sonor View Post
                          I have to pull up a few of my fellow Brits on a couple of things.

                          What makes you think that the Tories are going to treat Defence spending any differently from the current incumbents? I remember that they were happily cutting the armed forces prior to the Falklands.

                          When the Tories come to power, do you honestly think they will cut spending on the NHS to spend on lets say Defence? Do that and its bye bye at the next election.

                          While the current Government haven't exactly written a blank cheque on Defence spending, I'm certainly not expecting Defence to be showered with Money If the Tories win.
                          Quite.

                          The Labour Party in the UK is stuck between its own left wing and the floating voters, being unable to satisfy either in the defence area. Always has been.

                          Ares suggested mixing F-35s and Eurofighters. Your thoughts?

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by jlvfr View Post
                            "Navalizing" the Eurofighter would not only cost tens of millions (massive overall strutural reinforcement, protection against salt corrosion, maybe even folding wings because it's almost 2 meters more wingspan than VTOL JSF, navalized elecronics, new landing gear, landing hook...), not to mention how many years this would take...

                            So, if the UK dumps the JSF, it will have only 2 realistic alternatives for it's carriers: the F-18 or the Rafale. Let's face it, even in it's latest version, the F-18 is basically an early 80's plane. So the best choice would be the Rafale. It might be cheaper (?) than the JSF, but then the UK would need to buy catapults/arrestor gear for the carriers, along with it's associated maintenance and support costs...

                            Of course, I'm sure Putin wouldn't mind selling you some Su-33 or Mig-29K for the carriers. I'm sure they'd be really cheap :))
                            Not the Super Hornet. It's actually a brand new plane that looks like the A-D model. Full 4.5 gen and on the same level as the Eurofighter and Rafale.

                            Now the Rafale isn't really a choice at all. It's so....French....:))
                            "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by JA Boomer View Post
                              Not the EH-101.

                              A variant of the EH-101, the CH-149 Cormorant, which is actually built off of the civilian model if I remember correctly was chosen as our new search and rescue helicopter and replaced the CH-113 Labrador (a version of the H-46 Sea Knight).
                              OoooOOo! Completely forgot! You're totally right, I remember now

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by gunnut View Post

                                Now the Rafale isn't really a choice at all. It's so....French....:))
                                See?! See?! That's why the brits are gonna miss on such a great plane!

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