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  • #16
    Originally posted by wrightwing View Post
    The complaint about the comparitive load outs between the EF and JSF is misleading though.
    I agree, this...

    The cost is only part of the problem. There is serious concern over the aircraft’s lack of firepower as it can only carry three 500lb bombs, compared with as many as eight on the Eurofighter.
    ...doesn't make any sense. I think the F-35B would only be capable of carrying 2 500lb bombs internally, but it should be able to carry many more on external pylons. 2 1000lb bombs is the maximum internal payload.

    Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
    There is no such thing. Just because they beef up the center spar, landing gear and put a tailhook on a EF doesn't mean that it can only fly off carriers.
    I agree, history says it is easy to convert a carrier capable airframe to normal use, but it's not so easy to do the other way around. In fact, has ANY plane designed for normal land use ever been successfully modified to be deployed on a carrier?

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    • #17
      Originally posted by JA Boomer View Post
      I agree, history says it is easy to convert a carrier capable airframe to normal use, but it's not so easy to do the other way around. In fact, has ANY plane designed for normal land use ever been successfully modified to be deployed on a carrier?
      Define successful. The North American FJ Fury worked all right, although it wasn't a rip-roaring success. I suppose you could claim the F/A-18 as an extremely modified YF-17, by which I mean a completely different airplane that looks similar and shares design features. And of course the Russians made a workable carrier version of the Flanker, although it didn't have to be reinforced for cat launches.

      But on the whole, no, such a conversion ain't a recipe for success.
      Last edited by ArmchairGeneral; 28 Sep 08,, 21:04.
      I enjoy being wrong too much to change my mind.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
        We will be waiting for when you decide to become a 1st tier military again.
        Its always nice to know our effort are appreciated, come try and say that in a British army base and see what happens. (Not including the *****ing about being under paid etc;)).

        If we are not a top tier force who is, arguably the second most advanced and the best trained force in the world. (I wont compromise on the part about training)

        Although our politicians do seem to be very anti-military, don't want to put any money in etc.
        Last edited by Shiny Capstar; 28 Sep 08,, 23:23.
        Nulli Secundus
        People always talk of dying for their country, and never of making the other bastard die for his

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Akaloc View Post
          Wouldn't they have to modify the carriers anyways if they choose the navalized Eurofighters?
          My thinking is more ditch the JSF, build more Eurofighters (which means cash going straight into UK factories, so money sort of saved) and because this could get the French onside with the carriers, a saving is made there because we build three instead of just two.

          At least I think that could be the thinking in the MOD (read the treasury).

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Shiny Capstar View Post

            If we are not a top tier force who is, arguably the second most advanced and the best trained force in the world. (I wont compromise on the part about training)
            My comment had nothing to do with the individual Soldier Sailor or Marine or their training.

            I've trained on RN ships and been on many operations and hosted RMs.

            That said, I would tell you that the best individual trained Marines I have ever trained with were RoK Marines. But that doesn't make their military First tier.

            A first tier military can project force without another countries help.

            Your country did it in the Falklands.

            The French can do it, the US can do it, Hell right now Spain and Italy have a better force projection capability than you do.

            Maybe one day your country will decide they want to do it again.

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            • #21
              Gg

              Ok GG so YOU know what the UK Government really wants to do? How much do you know about what yours is upto? Maybe our concern about being stuck without the technical updates etc in the future, so in reality the US will be controlling our capability....(There is obviously something that is causing this concern? could it be a trust issue?...... why is your Government making this thing difficult, please enlighten us.
              Shortly the decision has to be made by the UK to commit, once that first payment is made we are committed, yet.... the US seems to be not keeping to there end of the deal....... to my understanding.

              I have to add right now, that its exactly this, the kind of arrogant insulting comments you are making that is turning people away from the US, and considering them nothing more than school yard bullies. With a bigger gang and more toys.
              Its a good job that the majority of the people who run your country, realise that is not the way to keep allies.
              sigpicFEAR NAUGHT

              Should raw analytical data ever be passed to policy makers?

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              • #22
                Originally posted by T_igger_cs_30 View Post
                Ok GG so YOU know what the UK Government really wants to do? How much do you know about what yours is upto? Maybe our concern about being stuck without the technical updates etc in the future, so in reality the US will be controlling our capability....(There is obviously something that is causing this concern? could it be a trust issue?...... why is your Government making this thing difficult, please enlighten us.


                because both our governments have told BAE to tighten up their control measures before we start transfering the tech data.
                Shortly the decision has to be made by the UK to commit, once that first payment is made we are committed, yet.... the US seems to be not keeping to there end of the deal....... to my understanding.
                We are not doing it for 2 reasons. Worried about your company being able to secure the data. We have been burned more than once on tech transfers.
                And Congress has said that they will send the authorization to the new president. Ours is in his Lame Duck period. This is too important to burden the next president with the actions of his predecessor.


                I have to add right now, that its exactly this, the kind of arrogant insulting comments you are making that is turning people away from the US, and considering them nothing more than school yard bullies. With a bigger gang and more toys.
                Its a good job that the majority of the people who run your country, realise that is not the way to keep allies.
                Quite frankly, If you want to use our tech, play with our toys but only contribute 10% of the budget to develop it. You will play by our rules. Don't like it, Develop your own JSF.

                We on this side get a little tired of hearing how committed our NATO allies are. But then they don't want to pull their share. The US has kept troops and aircraft in europe, provided for your defense so that you could spend money on other things only to hear you tell us how backward we are and sorry but your troops cannot be used for the NATO mission right now.

                Ron Pauls idea of pulling troops, and money out of europe is sounding better and better every day. We need to pay for the bailout somehow.

                Stay partners with Canada, Australia and the Pacific rim states. let europe do their own thing.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by VarSity View Post
                  My thinking is more ditch the JSF, build more Eurofighters (which means cash going straight into UK factories, so money sort of saved) and because this could get the French onside with the carriers, a saving is made there because we build three instead of just two.

                  At least I think that could be the thinking in the MOD (read the treasury).
                  How many Navalized Eurofighters are flying right now? Has one ever been built? How many in the production pipeline?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Stan View Post
                    You make some good points.

                    As for becoming a 1st tier military - I guess we could do what you guys did and rack up a national debt of 9 trillion dollars but im not so sure we are willing to do it. 400 billion is more than enough for us.
                    Its our social failures I mean programs moreso than defense spending.

                    T_igger_cs_30, calm down, jeez. You're either unwinding from the worst day any human has ever experienced, or you're high on PCP.
                    Last edited by Jimmy; 29 Sep 08,, 01:03.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post

                      because both our governments have told BAE to tighten up their control measures before we start transfering the tech data.
                      Agreed

                      We are not doing it for 2 reasons. Worried about your company being able to secure the data
                      .

                      And the US is renound for being leakproof......... or should I say leaving "gates" open

                      We have been burned more than once on tech transfers.
                      A risk any government takes when it needs and wants allies

                      And Congress has said that they will send the authorization to the new president. Ours is in his Lame Duck period.
                      I am sure that is meant in the most loyal way

                      This is too important to burden the next president with the actions of his predecessor.
                      May I assume, that you do not trust either potential President, even such a staunch supporter of the military like McCain?

                      Quite frankly, If you want to use our tech, play with our toys
                      Personally dont want to.

                      but only contribute 10% of the budget to develop it.
                      Again when you want allies these are the type of deals you offer

                      You will play by our rules.
                      Not worth a comment

                      Don't like it, Develop your own JSF.
                      Think you might be onto something here.

                      We on this side get a little tired of hearing how committed our NATO allies are.
                      Ok now your the spokesman for the whole of the US, thats fine, In some areas people are the same as in the US, sick of seeing body bags come home, please do not play the numbers game I already know you are bigger and have more of everything including manpower, IT DOES NOT make anyone elses contribution any less important. You have your own detracters in the US also.

                      But then they don't want to pull their share.
                      I think you are confusing after all this time, governments having to reavaluate there position in regards to homeland needs and the people they are responsible for, and putting the US needs second, but remember there WAS NO hesitation when we were needed.

                      The US has kept troops and aircraft in europe, provided for your defense
                      And this was done out of the goodness of your heart? with absolutely no thought of yourselfs and how nice itwould be to be able to fight the big bad Russians from somebody elses backyard?........... not to mention the appealing thought that one day you maybe called an Empire............ personally I think thats what allies should do, but when ego's start to want to be rubbed all the time well maybe a break is needed?

                      so that you could spend money on other things only to hear you tell us how backward we are and sorry but your troops cannot be used for the NATO mission right now.
                      Another statement not worth comment.

                      Ron Pauls idea of pulling troops, and money out of europe is sounding better and better every day. We need to pay for the bailout somehow.

                      Stay partners with Canada, Australia and the Pacific rim states. let europe do their own thing
                      .

                      Finally we agree on something, I think it would be wonderfull too, Europe is striving to unite, some more than other's, its in a fledgling state right now, as in Europe we have lots of history and a few differences to overcome. Somewhat like the US 200 and some years ago, but as the US evolved so shall Europe, we know deep down it has to. I will not live to see a unified Europe, where we do not have to rely on the US for support if its needed. I truly believe when that happens it will be better for all concerned, Europe and the US alike
                      GG the US and UK are great allies, the fact we are not as big in resources or manpower than the US, and we could never sustain a 9 trillion $ deficit, does not make us any less willing or able to put things right, but it has to be done in a different way. Our time to reavaluate how we sustain 2 fronts, plus maintain the counrtry has arrived, we are NOT and never will run away.
                      sigpicFEAR NAUGHT

                      Should raw analytical data ever be passed to policy makers?

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                      • #26
                        Gentlemen,

                        I would like to remind you that these decisions are WAY ABOVE our pay grade.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by T_igger_cs_30 View Post
                          GG the US and UK are great allies, the fact we are not as big in resources or manpower than the US, and we could never sustain a 9 trillion $ deficit, does not make us any less willing or able to put things right, but it has to be done in a different way. Our time to reavaluate how we sustain 2 fronts, plus maintain the counrtry has arrived, we are NOT and never will run away.
                          Its not that we do or don't trust the next President but during the Lame Duck portion of an admin, we try not to saddle the next guy with long term commitments. Now after the election, the President and his successor will talk and word might be to go ahead and sign it.

                          For your last statement, I agree that you are not as big and you don't want to grow your debt bigger. No one asked you to take on 9 billion Dollars worth.

                          But you don't get to play at the big boys table with $5.00 chips.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
                            Its not that we do or don't trust the next President but during the Lame Duck portion of an admin, we try not to saddle the next guy with long term commitments. Now after the election, the President and his successor will talk and word might be to go ahead and sign it.

                            For your last statement, I agree that you are not as big and you don't want to grow your debt bigger. No one asked you to take on 9 billion Dollars worth.
                            But you don't get to play at the big boys table with $5.00 chips.
                            You sound like a petulant schoolboy who is not getting his own way..........And I consider the 2 fronts we are fighting, and will remain in to the end, much more than a game GG, when it comes to fighting and winning we never play............think we have run our course on this one GG take care.
                            sigpicFEAR NAUGHT

                            Should raw analytical data ever be passed to policy makers?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              My comment had nothing to do with your countrys troop deployment.

                              It was about the JSF.

                              But I think you knew that. You can climb off your "Hollier than tho" horse.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Tigger and GG

                                Take it easy there gents... ;)
                                “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

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