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  • #16
    there's going to have to be a LOT of refinement of UCAVs before they can start taking over the A-10's mission...it will be interesting to see where this field goes. the AF is talking about an unmanned bomber, after all.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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    • #17
      Originally posted by scorefour View Post
      The F-35 is one aircraft program designed to replace many different types of aircraft around the world -- F-16, F/A-18, F-117, A-10, AV-8B, Sea Harrier, GR.7, F-111 and Tornado -- flown by 14 air forces.
      You see, this is kind of misleading isn't it? I know what they are trying to say...but the F-117A is RETIRED, the Sea Harrier is RETIRED, the USAF F-111's are RETIRED, the RAAF F-111's are being replaced with F/A-18F's, and I'm not sure which air forces are planning of switching squadrons of Tornados (IDS's I presume?) for F-35's. Just doesn't doesn't make sense and I don't know why they feel they have to make this point.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by scorefour View Post
        -- The F-35 is one aircraft program designed to replace many different types of aircraft around the world -- F-16, F/A-18, F-117, A-10, AV-8B, Sea Harrier, GR.7, F-111 and Tornado -- flown by 14 air forces.
        Ok... this, I think, may be a bit too much.

        I'm a fan of the F-35, but, afaik, it was designed as a (more or less) light fighter, intended as a replacement for the Harrier (all versions) the F-16, the A-10 (maybe...), the Jaguar and the F-16. There is no way it can replace the range/payload/speed of the F-111 and Tornado. As for the F-117, it has (had) a completely different mission profile. To me, trying to convince anyone that the F-35 can replace these planes is actually giving ammo to it's opponents...

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        • #19
          Originally posted by jlvfr View Post
          Ok... this, I think, may be a bit too much.

          I'm a fan of the F-35, but, afaik, it was designed as a (more or less) light fighter, intended as a replacement for the Harrier (all versions) the F-16, the A-10 (maybe...), the Jaguar and the F-16. There is no way it can replace the range/payload/speed of the F-111 and Tornado. As for the F-117, it has (had) a completely different mission profile. To me, trying to convince anyone that the F-35 can replace these planes is actually giving ammo to it's opponents...
          Again, how can you realistically say the F-35 will replace something like the Jaguar. It might replace the role that the Jaguar once performed, but when the F-35 becomes operational the Jaguar force will have been retired for 10+ years...I mean common.

          For me, it's designed to directly replace the Harrier GR.9, AV-8B, F-16C, and F/A-18C/D. It MAY end up replacing the A-10 as well. If you want to say it will replace the roles that the Sea Harrier, Jaguar, and F-117A provided that's fine. The F-35 filling the roles of either the F-111 or the Tornado may be a stretch for me though.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by JA Boomer View Post
            Again, how can you realistically say the F-35 will replace something like the Jaguar. It might replace the role that the Jaguar once performed, but when the F-35 becomes operational the Jaguar force will have been retired for 10+ years...I mean common.

            For me, it's designed to directly replace the Harrier GR.9, AV-8B, F-16C, and F/A-18C/D. It MAY end up replacing the A-10 as well. If you want to say it will replace the roles that the Sea Harrier, Jaguar, and F-117A provided that's fine. The F-35 filling the roles of either the F-111 or the Tornado may be a stretch for me though.
            It certainly won't match the range of the F-111 or even the Tornado, but its low RCS and stand off weapons will help offset these deficiencies. It will certainly do much better in a high threat(S-300/400) environment than the other 2. It's self-escort abilities are obviously far better too.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by wrightwing View Post
              It certainly won't match the range of the F-111 or even the Tornado, but its low RCS and stand off weapons will help offset these deficiencies. It will certainly do much better in a high threat(S-300/400) environment than the other 2. It's self-escort abilities are obviously far better too.
              Very true, and it does have several capabilities the two older airframes lack. But it is just not designed to be a low-level long-range interdiction aircraft as the other too were. And I'm not sure who is even planning on replacing the roles of the F-111 or the Tornado with the Lightning II anyways.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by JA Boomer View Post
                Very true, and it does have several capabilities the two older airframes lack. But it is just not designed to be a low-level long-range interdiction aircraft as the other too were. And I'm not sure who is even planning on replacing the roles of the F-111 or the Tornado with the Lightning II anyways.
                I don't think anybody is gonna be flying low level if they can avoid it though, especially when you have stuff(or will have) like JSOW, JASSM, the Long range dual purpose missiles, etc.... to engage at maximum stand off.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by scorefour View Post
                  Check out this article regarding all the recent crap we've been hearing about how bad the F-35 is. Very enlightening.

                  Setting the Record Straight on F-35


                  (Source: Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company; issued September 19, 2008)



                  FORT WORTH, Texas --- U.S. Air Force analyses show the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II is at least 400 percent more effective in air-to-air combat capability than the best fighters currently available in the international market.

                  The Air Force's standard air-to-air engagement analysis model, also used by allied air forces to assess air-combat performance, pitted the 5th generation F-35 against all advanced 4th generation fighters in a variety of simulated scenarios. The results were clear: the F-35 outperformed the most highly evolved fighters in aerial combat by significant margins.

                  "In all F-35 Program Office and U.S. Air Force air-to-air combat effectiveness analysis to date, the F-35 enjoys a significant Combat Loss Exchange Ratio advantage over the current and future air-to-air threats, to include Sukhois," said Maj. Gen. Charles R. Davis, F-35 program executive officer.

                  Recent claims that Russian fighters defeated F-35s in a Hawaii-based simulated combat exercise are untrue, according to Maj. Gen. Davis.

                  "The reports are completely false and misleading and have absolutely no basis in fact," Maj. Gen. Davis said. "The August 2008 Pacific Vision Wargame that has been referenced recently in the media did not even address air-to-air combat effectiveness. The F-35 is required to be able to effectively defeat current and projected air-to-air threats. All available information, at the highest classification, indicates that F-35 is effectively meeting these aggressive operational challenges."

                  The Pacific Vision Wargame was a table-top exercise designed to assess basing and force-structure vulnerabilities, and did not include air-to-air combat exercises or any comparisons of different aircraft platforms.

                  Other erroneous allegations about the program were recently made in a letter distributed and written by industry-watchers Winston Wheeler and Pierre Sprey.

                  "It's not clear why they attacked the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) program," said Tom Burbage, Lockheed Martin executive vice president of F-35 program integration. "It is clear they don't understand the underlying requirements of the F-35 program, the capabilities needed to meet those requirements or the real programmatic performance of the JSF team."

                  Here are the facts:

                  -- The F-35 is a racehorse, not a "dog," as Wheeler/Sprey suggest. In stealth combat configuration, the F-35 aerodynamically outperforms all other combat-configured 4th generation aircraft in top-end speed, loiter, subsonic acceleration and combat radius. This allows unprecedented "see/shoot first" and combat radius advantages.

                  -- The high thrust-to-weight ratios of the lightweight fighter program Wheeler/Sprey recall from 30 years ago did not take into consideration combat-range fuel, sensors or armament, which dramatically alter wing loading, thrust-to-weight ratios and maneuverability. We do consider all of this in today's fighters.

                  -- The F-35 has the most powerful engine ever installed in a fighter, with thrust equivalent to both engines today in Eurofighter or F/A-18 aircraft. The conventional version of the F-35 has 9g capability and matches the turn rates of the F-16 and F/A-18. More importantly, in a combat load, with all fuel, targeting sensor pods and weapons carried internally, the F-35's aerodynamic performance far exceeds all legacy aircraft equipped with a similar capability.

                  -- When the threat situation diminishes so that it is safe for legacy aircraft to participate in the fight, the F-35 can also carry ordnance on six external wing stations in addition to its four internal stations.

                  Other important facts:

                  -- External weapon clearance is part of the current F-35 test program.

                  -- The government has already proven that no other aircraft can survive against the 5th generation stealth that only the F-22 and the F-35 possess; it is impossible to add this stealth to fourth-generation fighters.

                  -- The F-35's data collection, integration and information sharing capabilities will transform the battlespace of the future and will redefine the close air support mission. The F-35 is specifically designed to take advantage of lessons learned from the F-117 stealth aircraft. Unlike the F-117, the ability to share tactically important information is built into the F-35, along with stealth.

                  -- F-35 is developing, testing, and fielding mature software years ahead of legacy programs, further reducing development risk. The F-35's advanced software, already flying on two test aircraft with remarkable stability, is demonstrating the advantages of developing highly-common, tri-variant aircraft. The software developed span the entire aircraft and support systems including the aircraft itself, logistics systems, flight and maintenance trainers, maintenance information system and flight-test instrumentation.

                  -- Rather than relying exclusively on flight testing, the F-35 is retiring development risk through the most comprehensive laboratories, sensor test beds, and integrated full-fusion flying test bed ever created for an aircraft program. Representing only 25% of our verification plans, still the F-35's flight test program is comparable in hours to the combined flight test programs of the three primary U.S. aircraft it will replace.

                  -- The F-35 is one aircraft program designed to replace many different types of aircraft around the world -- F-16, F/A-18, F-117, A-10, AV-8B, Sea Harrier, GR.7, F-111 and Tornado -- flown by 14 air forces.

                  -- In addition to 19 developmental test aircraft, the F-35 is producing 20 fully instrumented, production-configured operational test aircraft. No program in history has employed this many test vehicles.

                  "Simply put, advanced stealth and sensor fusion allow the F-35 pilot to see, target and destroy the adversary and strategic targets in a very high surface-to-air threat scenario, and deal with air threats intent on denying access -- all before the F-35 is ever detected, then return safely to do it again," said Burbage.

                  The F-35 is a supersonic, multi-role, 5th generation stealth fighter. Three F-35 variants derived from a common design, developed together and using the same sustainment infrastructure worldwide will replace at least 13 types of aircraft for 11 nations initially, making the Lightning II the most cost-effective fighter program in history. Two F-35s have entered flight test, two are in ground test, and 17 are in various stages of assembly, including the first two production-model jets scheduled for delivery to the U.S. Air Force in 2010.


                  Headquartered in Bethesda, Md., Lockheed Martin is a global security company that employs about 140,000 people worldwide and is principally engaged in the research, design, development, manufacture, integration and sustainment of advanced technology systems, products and services. The corporation reported 2007 sales of $41.9 billion. (ends)
                  With price of 83 million. sounds pretty expensive to me.

                  -Equalizer T-
                  Last edited by Equalizert; 26 Sep 08,, 03:35.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by JA Boomer View Post
                    You see, this is kind of misleading isn't it? I know what they are trying to say...but the F-117A is RETIRED, the Sea Harrier is RETIRED, the USAF F-111's are RETIRED, the RAAF F-111's are being replaced with F/A-18F's, and I'm not sure which air forces are planning of switching squadrons of Tornados (IDS's I presume?) for F-35's. Just doesn't doesn't make sense and I don't know why they feel they have to make this point.
                    You're right on that. The F-35 program seems to be struggling to appeal to the masses and so they reach for anything to list as a selling point. My personal theory on that is that on the outside, it's a pretty regular looking airplane. So much of what makes the F-35 special is classified stuff that they can't really talk about. I have no doubts that the F-35 will be a game changer in a lot of areas, but for now, much of the technology is top secret.
                    I want what I do not have.

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                    • #25
                      Personally, I think we should stick with the F-22 and produce more than the 300 that the USAF wants and instead of dealing with the F-35, just build different variants off the F-22.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by erik View Post
                        Personally, I think we should stick with the F-22 and produce more than the 300 that the USAF wants and instead of dealing with the F-35, just build different variants off the F-22.
                        I think its question of money 300 F-22 will cost 41250000000 Dollars.
                        How many more is needed if they will take the role of F-35 ?

                        -Equalizer T-

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Equalizert View Post
                          I think its question of money 300 F-22 will cost 41250000000 Dollars.
                          How many more is needed if they will take the role of F-35 ?

                          -Equalizer T-
                          Actually, the unit cost per F-22 would be considerably less than that figure, if 300 more airframes were bought. The problem is that there are certain F-35 roles that the F-22 couldn't perform, due to the size of its internal weapon bays. I'm not sure a force of 500 Raptors and 1500 Lightning IIs would be a bad thing though, especially if the plan to keep the 200+ F-15Es, and 178 F-15C+s, were still part of the arrangement.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by JA Boomer View Post
                            Again, how can you realistically say the F-35 will replace something like the Jaguar. It might replace the role that the Jaguar once performed, but when the F-35 becomes operational the Jaguar force will have been retired for 10+ years...I mean common.
                            I know that. I refered to what it is was originnally designed for. Don't forget the program is years late (like most programs, tbh)... it's indeed more a matter of filling roles currently (or near-currently) filled by this or that plane.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by erik View Post
                              Personally, I think we should stick with the F-22 and produce more than the 300 that the USAF wants and instead of dealing with the F-35, just build different variants off the F-22.
                              That's not even an option. That's like saying we should scrap both of them and just put bombs and missiles on C-130s, they're cheaper.


                              Different planes, different missions, different capabilities.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by wrightwing View Post
                                Actually, the unit cost per F-22 would be considerably less than that figure, if 300 more airframes were bought.
                                Originally posted by wrightwing View Post
                                I'm not sure a force of 500 Raptors and 1500 Lightning IIs would be a bad thing though, especially if the plan to keep the 200+ F-15Es, and 178 F-15C+s, were still part of the arrangement.
                                I think the USAF is planning for 1700 F-35A's. You can't divert the funds for 200 of those and come up with 300 F-22A's.

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