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  • Tronic,

    Having been in the Army for more years than I can remember, I would disagree if you say that there is no Sikh caste divide. Technically, there should be no divide as per the religion (just as there should be none in Christianity and Islam), but in reality this persists in all religions of India.

    If there were no divides, then why should there be Jatts, Bhapas, Ramgharia and Ramdasias? It should be only Sikh!

    The evils of Hindus seems to visit all our religions.

    It is time for all of us to think of us as humans.


    "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

    I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

    HAKUNA MATATA

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Ray View Post
      Tronic,

      Having been in the Army for more years than I can remember, I would disagree if you say that there is no Sikh caste divide. Technically, there should be no divide as per the religion (just as there should be none in Christianity and Islam), but in reality this persists in all religions of India.

      If there were no divides, then why should there be Jatts, Bhapas, Ramgharia and Ramdasias? It should be only Sikh!

      The evils of Hindus seems to visit all our religions.

      It is time for all of us to think of us as humans.
      Never said there was no caste divide in Sikhism sir; just pointing out to Infinity here that the Khalistanis were not against "Brahmins", but the Indian system.

      By the way, don't exactly consider Jatts a caste; rather more of an ethnicity, although it has made its way on the sub-continental caste hierarchy. Don't know much about Ramdasias to comment. And "Bhapas" are not a caste; rather it is a derogatory term used to describe people who migrated from Pakistani Punjab into Indian Punjab after the partition. Most "Bhapas" are either Khatris or Tarkhans; again, both are more ethnic clans, each with its own rich history.

      It should be only Sikh!
      Very true; and that is why the Gurus called on all Sikhs to only use "Singh" as a last name, so casteism doesn't even arise. But "Singh" has found place as a middle name, as most people still aren't willing to drop their tags of their respective clans.
      Last edited by Tronic; 28 Sep 08,, 15:15.
      Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
      -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

      Comment


      • Why, because I don't agree with you?
        No, Because you dont agree with yourself! ;)

        Errmm... I didn't find anything. Except for a few forums here and there, and there too 1 or 2 person's own opinion; hardly something which can be used to associate with the entire Khalistani movement. Maybe you could care to provide the links.
        Yaara nikka jeha kam keha si o vi nahin ho sakiya? ;)
        Anyhow Tronic for you:

        YouTube - KHALISTAN ZINDABADH (I think you can read Punjabi)
        For our non Punjabi readers a Khalistani Supporter reads out a usual Khalistani propoganda material where for every real/imaginary concieved problems they like to blame "Brahmins".
        The first page reads out like: "Guru Sahibaan nu darpok tey Devi Bhagat Darsa key thaan thaan Brahmana di Mahiman"

        Which means: Brahmins achieving Glory at several places (in Punjab) by depicting Gurus in derogatory way by calling them cowards and by calling them Goddess worshipper. WOW!! I never knew that!

        YouTube - Khalistan Will be Established !
        The poster of this video posts this video with these comments:

        Raaj Karega Khalsa Akhi Rahe Na Koe Raaj Karega Khal...
        Raaj Karega Khalsa Akhi Rahe Na Koe
        Raaj Karega Khalistan bahman rahe na koe


        Which literally means
        Pure one(Khalsa) will rule, Land of Pure(Khalistani) will rule and in that Land of Pure we will ensure no Brahmin lives....

        The Khalistanis depict the Indian Goverment and the Hindu population in Punjab comprising of "repugnant crafty Brahmin and the usurious Bania" as the author of this article does. Higlighted for benefit of Tronic LINK1.

        Bhinderwale was no different he frequently loathed Late Indira Gandhi as "Bahman di Tee" or Daughter of a Brahmin. Though technically correct, but he used it to arouse passion in Sikh so that they can stand against these "Bahmans"
        Link2.
        In above link, the author of the book "Ethnicity, Security, Seperatism in India" reconfirms my view in the following quoted line for Bhinderwale "He frequently made references to Nehru family's Brahmin Hindu orgins in order to tap the tradtional Sikh suspicion of caste Hindus. In Punjab country side these two country side these two castes are regarded as devious and exploitative."

        Here is another link where Khalistanis express their love for "Brahmin Mafia Raaj".
        Khalistan Affairs Center - June 22.

        This link contains views of Khalistani supporters, see the comments:
        Sikhi Spirit Shines at 4th July Celebrations | SikhNet and this Khalistan News - KHALISTAN NEWS LETTER. And this Link.

        And lets see what the Khalistani terrorist - the killer of General Vaidya said in Letter. Note its repeated references to "Brahmanical":
        Sukha Jinda Letter For them even the Indian Goverment is Brahminical as you can sample from the statement of the killer of General Vaidya,


        Get your facts rights mate, you or your family living near Lande Rode makes you think you know their ideology top-bottom? I'm also from Muktsar district, my historical pind still being there, though most of family have now shifted to Patiala, and I'm also a Brar, just like Bhinderenwala and the good ol' General which hunted him out, so what?
        Sorry dude with whatever discussion I had with you, it seems that you dont have an inkling about their agendas! I am speaking about facts which affected my near and dear ones, the fear in which Hindus had to live. My brother who was living in Muktsar had to wear a turban and keep a beard just to avoid being Gunned down by Khalistanis. His hindu friends converted to Sikhism when they were given choice of embracing Sikhism or death.

        I have no beef with any clan. I am trying to explain that Khalistani's agenda included hate for "Brahmincal" Hindus and their "Brahminical" Goverment of India. Before operation Bluestar, Hindus were being systematically cleansed in Punjab, which intensified even more after Operation Blue Star.

        And do you even have a clue as to when those slogans were used? No, they were not used against Brahminism or whatever; those slogans were used against all Hindus; Dhoti + Topi vs. Salwar-kameez + Pagg; it is a generalization, and most Sikhs I know, can hardly tell the difference between so many different castes associated with Hinduism;
        Yeah I have more than clue, but you dont seem to have an iota of idea about that. Do you see how you are contradicting yourself?

        Lets see according to you:
        "Dhoti + Topi vs. Salwar-kameez + Pagg; it is a generalization,"
        "most Hindus even in regular conversation are called "Bahmans" in Punjab"
        "those slogans were used against all Hindus;"

        So Dhoti Topi slogan was used against Hindus and since Khalistanis called Hindus Bahmans, these slogans were used against "Bahman".

        Do you know Tronic, mere slogans were not raised, it was actually accompanied by cleansing of these Hindu "Bahmans"?

        most Hindus even in regular conversation are called "Bahmans" in Punjab, and I assume you having lived in Punjab probably know that already.
        No, from your above statement it seems that my Punjabi language (and I can be pretty sure of 39.357% population of Punjab about the same) seems to be different from "your" Punjabi language, Bahmans or "Brahman" or "Pundit" is just one of the caste in Hindus and is reffered as such. And I doubt all the "non Bahman" Hindu Punjabis refer themselves to as "Bahman". Even Bhinderawala knew what "Bahman" was by making statements like "Bahman Di Tee" Sorry dude, you are just weaseling out!

        Thats what happens when you educate yourself off Bhinderenwala's speeches. Aha, jokes aside, well, let me just tell you as a Sikh, we have got no hate for any caste; as far as I was concerned growing up in Punjab, I had always associated Bahmans = Hindus; nothing more, nothing less. And even when I did find out about Brahminism and all, I only found out very later that Bahmans were the Brahmins, and I found out a very embarassing way, going to a Hindu family's house, and asking them, so who the heck are these Bahmans anyways? And they're like, "whose house you're sitting in right now."
        It must be a laughing matter for you, but not for me. People lost lives because of that idiot.

        Has nothing to do with discussion, but yeh, making Haryana didn't help; Indira Gandhi showed the idiotic side of hers.
        Tronic, What was the idioticism in this division? As if only Punjab is only state which got divided? What about Bihar, MP, uttar Pradesh? Do you know about reorganization of other states in India in 1956? So just the re-organization gives people of these states to start militancy? Does it give them the license for killing innocent people of their own state?

        And hey guess what!? I didn't know that! And I doubt most Jatts know that aswell; so if I don't know that, how can I have hard-feelings against Brahmins? So, if you find these "senses and perception" "wrong", then too bad! These are the perceptions of a Jatt and also of a Sikh, and if they don't suite your perceptions, tough luck, just don't make BS up about my clan or religion.
        Tronic let me exaplain why I said your sense and preception organs seem to be affected due to change in weather.

        So, my Orginal Statement:
        Originally posted by Infinity
        Who were those Sikh militants? Majority of them were the peasant/ other backward class
        Your statement
        Originally posted by Tronic
        Again, utter nonsense! Bhinderenwala was a Jatt, and majority of his followers were also rural Jatts.
        Then I explained to you when I said "peasant" I was indirectly refering to the fact that it started as a movement which primarily consisted of Jats who were peasants/farmers.
        Originally posted by Infinity
        Jat (jät)
        n.
        A member of a peasant caste residing in the Punjab and other areas of northern India and Pakistan, comprising Muslim, Hindu, and Sikh groups.

        Though what started as pure Jat and other peasantry class separatists movement it later on cashed in on the anti upper caste sentiment among other Backward Class due to nation wide protests by so called "General Category" against Mandal Commission
        which you also confirmed by following statement:
        Originally posted by Tronic
        since Jatts are traditional farmers;
        So I dont know what you are trying to confront? Or What was the BULL$h|T that I said about "your" clan????

        During that time, everyone who had an axe to grind came out posing as Khalistanis (easier to get funding and weapons that way). It is no secret that the backbone of the movement were Jatts, who still do not have quotas or reservations in Punjab! We are the biggest loosers of the quota system in Punjab.
        "Bahman"Hindus were not only looser in Quota System in Punjab but many of them also had to loose their lives opposing it......

        Oh ironical how conventionally you forget to mention, these "Sikh fundoos" are also allied with the "Hindutva" chaps, the BJP. More like opportunists then religious fundoos.
        No "Bahman" BJP did not support any such resolutions. Infact it was the major reason that led to shelving of "Minar e Shahidaan" project by Badal. Infact SAD and SGPC rhetoric got toned down when BJP joined them as coilation partner when they saw that BJP could bring Hindu votes to them. Before that i.e. During terrorism in Punjab and after it, Hindu votes tradationally went to Congress.

        Originally posted by Tronic
        Yeh, the word "Bahman" is in some cases used as derogratory term, and its not right.
        Yes... you are re-affirming what I have been saying.

        Originally posted by Tronic
        Well, for whatever reasons they are converting out of Sikhism, I couldn't really care; their life, their choice; but I don't see how it helps in this case; Christians, Muslims, and all can't get their caste out of the way, if thee guys don't wish to shed it.
        Mate the answer is, casteism was not only maintained by Brahmins alone, infact non Brahmin upper castes ensured that casteism flourished! That is why religions which do not have Brahmins for imposing castesim, still have caste based discrimination! See in your own religion!

        Though all these quick conversion is becoming just another lazy way of earning quick money.
        Last edited by Infinity; 29 Sep 08,, 05:30.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Tronic
          Never said there was no caste divide in Sikhism sir; just pointing out to Infinity here that the Khalistanis were not against "Brahmins", but the Indian system
          Yeah they were against "Brahmanical" Indian System ............................

          Comment


          • By the way: :: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::
            Last edited by Infinity; 29 Sep 08,, 05:29.

            Comment


            • I think all have made their points.

              Nothing will change the situation. :sad:


              "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

              I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

              HAKUNA MATATA

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Infinity View Post
                Yaara nikka jeha kam keha si o vi nahin ho sakiya? ;)
                oh 22, jeh tere kol links hundeyan, share karleya kar, kyunki mere kol college da kam karan nu time ni hunda, teh tuh hor faaltu da time waste karan nu dinnah.

                Anyhow Tronic for you:

                YouTube - KHALISTAN ZINDABADH (I think you can read Punjabi)
                For our non Punjabi readers a Khalistani Supporter reads out a usual Khalistani propoganda material where for every real/imaginary concieved problems they like to blame "Brahmins".
                The first page reads out like: "Guru Sahibaan nu darpok tey Devi Bhagat Darsa key thaan thaan Brahmana di Mahiman"

                Which means: Brahmins achieving Glory at several places (in Punjab) by depicting Gurus in derogatory way by calling them cowards and by calling them Goddess worshipper. WOW!! I never knew that!

                YouTube - Khalistan Will be Established !
                The poster of this video posts this video with these comments:

                Raaj Karega Khalsa Akhi Rahe Na Koe Raaj Karega Khal...
                Raaj Karega Khalsa Akhi Rahe Na Koe
                Raaj Karega Khalistan bahman rahe na koe


                Which literally means
                Pure one(Khalsa) will rule, Land of Pure(Khalistani) will rule and in that Land of Pure we will ensure no Brahmin lives....

                The Khalistanis depict the Indian Goverment and the Hindu population in Punjab comprising of "repugnant crafty Brahmin and the usurious Bania" as the author of this article does. Higlighted for benefit of Tronic LINK1.

                Bhinderwale was no different he frequently loathed Late Indira Gandhi as "Bahman di Tee" or Daughter of a Brahmin. Though technically correct, but he used it to arouse passion in Sikh so that they can stand against these "Bahmans"
                Link2.
                In above link, the author of the book "Ethnicity, Security, Seperatism in India" reconfirms my view in the following quoted line for Bhinderwale "He frequently made references to Nehru family's Brahmin Hindu orgins in order to tap the tradtional Sikh suspicion of caste Hindus. In Punjab country side these two country side these two castes are regarded as devious and exploitative."

                Here is another link where Khalistanis express their love for "Brahmin Mafia Raaj".
                Khalistan Affairs Center - June 22.

                This link contains views of Khalistani supporters, see the comments:
                Sikhi Spirit Shines at 4th July Celebrations | SikhNet and this Khalistan News - KHALISTAN NEWS LETTER. And this Link.

                And lets see what the Khalistani terrorist - the killer of General Vaidya said in Letter. Note its repeated references to "Brahmanical":
                Sukha Jinda Letter For them even the Indian Goverment is Brahminical as you can sample from the statement of the killer of General Vaidya,
                And thank you again; and in all that, let me just point out a line you yourself quoted here:

                The Khalistanis depict the Indian Goverment and the Hindu population in Punjab comprising of "repugnant crafty Brahmin and the usurious Bania" as the author of this article does. Higlighted for benefit of Tronic
                And that is why I have been stating that as far as I know, Bahmans = Hindus, nothing more, nothing less. Now, moreover:

                Originally posted by Infinity Post #67
                So is Sikhism free of caste discrimintaion? Naah, Jat Sikhs are the new age "Brahmins" of Sikh politics. They have started emulating the very concept of Brahminvaad they hate, but under new garb!
                And that is the point I have and still am contesting, because it is not true! Khalistanis hate the Bahmans, because as far as they are concerned, and as you yourself quoted above, Bahmans are the leading force of Hinduism in Punjab and India. Khalistanis aim is to create a Sikh state, so they are anti-Hindu, and since all major Hindu religious organizations in Punjab are dominated by the Bahmans; they are anti-Bahman. When they rounded up Hindus from buses and shot them, distinguishing Bahmans from non-Bahmans was the last thing on their mind.

                Now what you have stated is that essentially all Jatt Sikhs hate "Brahminvaad" (you still have to explain what that is), as they feel "marginalized when they were part of Hinduism", which is BS for two reasons. For one, when was the last time the Bahmans held power in Punjab that Jatt Sikhs should feel marginalized? and second, you have got the purpose all mixed up, although you successfully quoted the right purpose with those links, and thanks for that; but essentially all the links show a purpose that such hate is shown towards Bahmans as they are seen as the leading force of Hinduism in Punjab by the Khalistanis, rather then feeling "marginalized when they were part of Hinduism".

                Sorry dude with whatever discussion I had with you, it seems that you dont have an inkling about their agendas! I am speaking about facts which affected my near and dear ones, the fear in which Hindus had to live. My brother who was living in Muktsar had to wear a turban and keep a beard just to avoid being Gunned down by Khalistanis. His hindu friends converted to Sikhism when they were given choice of embracing Sikhism or death.
                Everyone faced a harsh time; Hindus and Sikhs alike. You think it was not a harsh time for the many Sikhs in Delhi who had to do away with their religion and chop off their hair just to avoid being killed by the Hindu mobs? Or you think it was not a hard time for ordinary Sikhs in Punjab who were rounded up in numbers and killed in fake encounters because of the stupid award system they put in place; i.e. the more terrorists you killed, the faster you climb the ranks. I still remember that if it got too late going from our farm house to the city, we would just sometimes spend the night at the farmhouse for the fear of going through very unpleasant Police checks every few KMs or so. Many never made it home. Or the fear in villages of gun-totting Khalistani terrorists who would sometimes come to your house in the middle of the night and demand food and demand money for the cause. And then the cops would harass you. Everyone's near and dear ones were affected.

                Do you know Tronic, mere slogans were not raised, it was actually accompanied by cleansing of these Hindu "Bahmans"?
                It was all mere politics, Indira Gandhi supported and bred the likes of Bhinderenwala and his loonies. I don't buy it at all that Hindus are being "cleansed" in Punjab. I still remember a couple years back when the debate of setting up a beef industry in Punjab was going on, the first thing being discussed was that it would be hurting Hindu sentiments.


                No, from your above statement it seems that my Punjabi language (and I can be pretty sure of 39.357% population of Punjab about the same) seems to be different from "your" Punjabi language, Bahmans or "Brahman" or "Pundit" is just one of the caste in Hindus and is reffered as such. And I doubt all the "non Bahman" Hindu Punjabis refer themselves to as "Bahman". Even Bhinderawala knew what "Bahman" was by making statements like "Bahman Di Tee"
                And I'm sure when you talked of "Sikhi" and "Jatt Sikhs" in particular, you were not talking of that 39.357% Hindu population of Punjab you refer to here. And no, i'm not aware of the whole rainbow of castes in Hinduism; Baniyas and Bahmans; and when I go to my farm house, maybe add Dakaunts to that aswell. The Choodas and Chamars don't quite seem to be down with any religion. I asked some who used to work in the fields, the boy didn't have a clue which religion he belonged to.

                Sorry dude, you are just weaseling out!
                Ahhhh... and Internet is a wonderful thing. Fire away!

                It must be a laughing matter for you, but not for me. People lost lives because of that idiot.
                People lost their lives because of a lot of idiots during that time.


                Tronic, What was the idioticism in this division? As if only Punjab is only state which got divided? What about Bihar, MP, uttar Pradesh? Do you know about reorganization of other states in India in 1956? So just the re-organization gives people of these states to start militancy? Does it give them the license for killing innocent people of their own state?
                The idioticy in this division is handing Punjab to the Sikhs and then asking why Sikhs think they own Punjab. You can't even see the irony. Diving Punjab was an idiotic thing to do.

                Tronic let me exaplain why I said your sense and preception organs seem to be affected due to change in weather.

                So, my Orginal Statement:

                Your statement

                Then I explained to you when I said "peasant" I was indirectly refering to the fact that it started as a movement which primarily consisted of Jats who were peasants/farmers.

                which you also confirmed by following statement:

                So I dont know what you are trying to confront? Or What was the BULL$h|T that I said about "your" clan????
                I wonder why you left out this part:

                Originally posted by Infinity
                Who were those Sikh militants? Majority of them were the same peasant/ other backward class who were marginalized when they were part of Hinduism.
                Sense and perception organs... right...

                If they felt marginalized by the Bahmans; Bahmans would have long ceased to exist in Punjab, as Jatt Misls have held power in that region for centuries. So your reasoning is slightly a bit off.

                And the BS about my religion lies here:

                Originally posted by Infinity
                Sikhism came into being in order to fight Islamic invader's attrocities on Hindus in the name of Islam. See the Irony, See the venom that these new convertees had that they made Sikhism turn against the very Hindu religion of which they were suppose to be fighting arm of.
                Sikhism was never suppose to be the fighting arm of the Hindus. Guru Nanak founded Sikhism; he was the last man to have preached violence. And the enemies and allies of the Sikhs had both been Hindus and Muslims at various times. Maybe you forget the Hindu Rajas of the Sivalik hills who waged war against Guru Gobind Singh, and failing to knock him out of power, even allied with the Mughals for help; which resulted in the Battle of Anandpur. So you tell me who turned against who.


                "Bahman"Hindus were not only looser in Quota System in Punjab but many of them also had to loose their lives opposing it......
                What??? You stated that the Sikh militants supported the Mandal commission, and since majority of them were Jatts, I pointed out to you, that even Jatts were loosers of the Mandal commission. Dont know where you're steering this to. Yes, they lost their lives, but loads of Sikhs also lost their lives during that time; it was not a rosy time for anyone.

                No "Bahman" BJP did not support any such resolutions.
                Any what resolutions??? I am talking of putting Bhinderenwala's picture at that Museum by SGPC (Badal's men) and the BJP barely saying a peep.

                Infact it was the major reason that led to shelving of "Minar e Shahidaan" project by Badal. Infact SAD and SGPC rhetoric got toned down when BJP joined them as coilation partner when they saw that BJP could bring Hindu votes to them. Before that i.e. During terrorism in Punjab and after it, Hindu votes tradationally went to Congress.
                Exactly; again proves that, like all politicians, they are opportunists rather then religious fundoos.

                Mate the answer is, casteism was not only maintained by Brahmins alone, infact non Brahmin upper castes ensured that casteism flourished! That is why religions which do not have Brahmins for imposing castesim, still have caste based discrimination! See in your own religion!
                Casteism flourishes in Sikhism because everyone is so stuck up about being a certain identity or clan. I don't think it is the same as casteism in Hinduism, though i'll admit i do not have much knowledge about the Hinduism. Though, for Sikhs, No one is forcing casteism on anyone but they force it upon themselves. Jatts call themselves Jatts, Khatris call themselves Khatris, Tarkhans call themselves Tarkhans, Sainis call themselves Sainis, Ramgharias call themselves Ramgharias, etc. No one is forcing them to, but they all still do; because all of them have a rich clan history passed down generation upon generation; it is not as if they are forced into their clans. It is their identity which I believe they are proud of. If someone dislikes this, they can easily change their last name to "Singh (as is required in the Rehats to be a "true Sikh"), and there will be nothing to classify them into clans. Many do, yet many don't! Like our PM Manmohan Singh who does not use his last name anymore. Though, in the past he did, and he is of the Kohli clan. ;) Anyhow, you get the point, even among Pakistani Punjabis it is the same; Jatts, Khatris and Tarkhans exist in Pakistan's Muslim populations even today! Join any social site, as Orkut or Facebook, and open up any Jatt or Khatri group and you will see half the members are Pakistani muslims!
                Last edited by Tronic; 30 Sep 08,, 17:48.
                Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
                -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Infinity View Post
                  Already posted: http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/sou...punjab-ib.html
                  Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
                  -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

                  Comment


                  • how ironic, pakistan is being consumed by the very monster it helped raise up.

                    The ‘Talibanization’ of Pakistan’s biggest city - World Blog - msnbc.com

                    The Talibanization of Pakistan

                    KARACHI, Pakistan – In the back of a jeep driving through Karachi, a sign on the wall of the city’s famous "Village Restaurant" caught my eye. It was just a little piece of frayed white paper plastered next to the restaurant’s much bigger logo, tempting customers to "Experience the Exotic of Traditional Dining."

                    But the printed sign expressed an increasingly urgent plea in this teeming port city, once Pakistan’s capital: "Save your city from Talibanization," it said in English.

                    But could the Taliban really be taking over Karachi? Karachi is Pakistan’s biggest city, far from the lawless tribal hinterland along the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan.

                    Out there, Taliban and al-Qaida militants have carved out an independent state. In the mountains, militants have their own courts and even issue licenses to local business. Last week in the tribal area, the Taliban publicly executed a group accused of murders. In another village square, they flogged several butchers for allegedly selling the meat of sick animals. That is Taliban justice.

                    U.S. military and intelligence officials consider that border area to be the world’s biggest, most dangerous safe haven for Taliban and al-Qaida fighters. Osama bin Laden, Mullah Omar and nearly all of their deputies have been based, and may still be based, in this often impassible mountain terrain.

                    But I was in Karachi, a giant city on the Indian Ocean. If Karachi is being ‘Talibanized,’ Pakistan is in real trouble, and so is everyone else.

                    Growing radicalism
                    Karachi has a history of Islamic radicalism. Wall Street Journal correspondent Daniel Pearl was kidnapped in front of the Village Restaurant in 2002. Pearl had been meeting contacts here. They were supposed to help him investigate Richard Reid, the "Shoe Bomber" who tried to blow up an American Airlines flight from Paris in December 2001.

                    But Pearl’s meeting was a set up. The "contacts" turned out to be fanatic militants who kidnapped and beheaded him. I was about to discover the radicals’ presence in this city appears to have grown since then.

                    Traveling in Karachi is both overwhelming and exhausting. It is a colorful, chaotic and undeniably dirty city. Flocks of vultures circle the sky all day. Trash lines many of the streets. As we drove from the Village Restaurant, our jeep darted around swarms of motorcycles, pickup trucks, rickshaws and even a sad looking camel pulling a cart stacked with barrels.

                    We were headed to a neighborhood in west Karachi where I had been told al-Qaida and Taliban militants had established a safe haven. Many Pakistanis make little distinction between al-Qaida and the Taliban. Both want to destabilize Pakistan and Afghanistan, establish an even bigger base of operations and spread their aggressive, intolerant vision of Islamic law.

                    The majority of people in Karachi want no part of it. Karachi is Pakistan’s cultural capital, the center of the nation’s fashion, high-tech and media industries. But that Karachi is under siege.

                    After about 30 minutes in traffic, our jeep arrived at the office of a local contact in a slum in west Karachi. Fearing for his safety, he didn’t want to be identified. I’ll call him Malik. He would take us deep into the alleys on the outskirts of Karachi, a neighborhood filled with brick homes built around cliffs and marble quarries. It would be unwise, Malik said, to venture in alone.

                    "It is too dangerous," he said. "The Talibans have their checkpoints, bunkers and snipers. At night, they patrol, sometimes on horses. They are always coming out with their weapons and RPGs intimidating people."

                    Malik said radicals have been flooding into Karachi since this spring, moving in from the border region. The border region is now a warzone, under attack by the Pakistani military and, controversially here, by U.S. drones and Special Operations Forces (SOF) that carry out raids from bases in neighboring Afghanistan.

                    The Pakistani and U.S. military offensives have killed hundreds of militants, but scattered many more. Increasingly, they are settling in Karachi. Estimates of Karachi’s population range from 12 to 18 million. The lack of accountability makes the city a great place to hide, unless you look like I did as I descended from the jeep dressed in khakis and a blue shirt.

                    Malik and I were standing in front of one of west Karachi’s madrassas, a traditional Islamic school for boys.

                    "Are there any students inside," I asked a guard. He stared back at me blankly. In less than a minute there were about 15 people around us. Several appeared to be madrassa students who had come out to see what a foreigner could possibly want from them.

                    "Are you all students at the madrassa?" I asked. A few said they were.

                    ‘God willing, we will fight them’
                    Many Pakistanis attend madrassas because they offer free education, supplementing the government’s lacking public school system. For centuries madrassas were the only form of education in the Islamic world. From Morocco to Indonesia, most madrassas have a similar layout, with a mosque at the center and classrooms upstairs. The vast majority of madrassas are moderate charities that teach religious values, the Koran and the traditions of the Prophet Mohammed.

                    But some madrassas in Pakistan have churned out suicide bombers indoctrinated in jihad and a paranoid but widespread philosophy that they must attack innocent civilians to defend their faith from the United States, Israel and other modern-day "crusaders."

                    Former President Pervez Musharraf promised to reform and regulate Pakistan’s hard-line madrassas. It never happened. According to Karachi’s former mayor Farooq Sattar, there are now more than 2,000 illegal madrassas in Karachi alone. This was one of them.

                    "What do you think of the Taliban and their influence here?" I asked the students.

                    More blank stares.

                    "What do you think about the U.S. incursions?"

                    That got a reaction.

                    "God willing, we will fight them," said one teenager with a purple scar on his chin. "They are the enemy," he said and launched into a long explanation of America’s goal to occupy Muslim lands and undermine Islam. I’ve heard the same speech from Cairo to Lebanon, Baghdad to Riyadh. God bless the Internet.

                    A few minutes later my driver/fixer, a very tough guy from a very tough part of Pakistan, tapped me on the shoulder.

                    "I think you have been here long enough," he said. It was time to go.

                    But I still hadn’t seen any Taliban.

                    Malik suggested we go deeper into the slum, to the neighborhood right under the cliffs and quarries. He was nervous about taking a foreigner, but had an idea. There was a graveyard in the area.

                    "We can pretend to be offering prayers for the dead," Malik suggested. "I’ll pray over one of the graves and you can see the neighborhood for yourself."

                    Malik said praying at a gravesite would give us an excuse to be in the area and raise less suspicion.

                    ‘You should not be here’
                    It didn’t exactly work. As soon as I stepped out of the jeep by the gravestones, I was again surrounded by a group of people. They didn’t have weapons or appear threatening, but didn’t attempt to hide their sympathies for the Taliban. One man proudly told me several suicide bombers had prayed in a nearby mosque.

                    But others were scared of the Taliban. A man who spoke English told me the Taliban were in control of the area.

                    "Do the Pakistani police or soldiers ever come here?" I asked him. "No, they can’t come here."

                    "How do people feel here?"

                    "We are all frightened. The Taliban has taken over."

                    More men, athletically built in their 20s and 30s, started to arrive.

                    "Who are these people?" I asked the English speaker.

                    "They are Taliban."

                    "Do they understand what we are saying? Do they understand English?"

                    "No, but you shouldn’t stay here. It is not comfortable here. You should not be here."

                    "Who runs this neighborhood?"

                    "They do."

                    The new arrivals didn’t want to be interviewed.

                    "Stop asking them questions," the English speaker advised.

                    We left a few minutes later.

                    "We couldn’t come here at night," Malik said as we were driving out of the neighborhood. "Now we had an excuse to come to the graveyard. But at night, there would be no reason to be here."

                    ‘It’s sad’
                    Driving back to the hotel, I kept thinking how a neighborhood in Karachi could be so tense and apparently out of control. In less than two hours, and without any prior arrangements, we’d managed to get to an area full of Taliban supporters and where many locals were clearly terrified.

                    As I walked back to my hotel room, I passed an old man in the hallway.

                    "I didn’t know you people were still coming here," he said. By "you people" I assumed he meant foreigners.

                    "Yes, a few. Not many of us," I admitted.

                    "I didn’t think anyone would be coming anymore," he added, saying he was upset by the bombing of the Marriott Hotel in Islamabad, one of the centers of social life for Pakistan’s shrinking expatriate community.

                    "It’s sad," he said. "It’s sad it’s come to this."

                    "Yes, it’s sad," I agreed.
                    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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