View Poll Results: In current Russia-Georgia conflict, who is right?

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  • Russia

    82 53.95%
  • Georgia

    51 33.55%
  • Other

    19 12.50%
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Thread: In current Russia-Georgia conflict, who is right?

  1. #91
    Military Professional Ray's Avatar
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    No one is right!

    All are wrong!

    Common people suffer!


    "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

    I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

    HAKUNA MATATA

  2. #92
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    Kato
    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    What Poles?
    Kaliningrad was German since the 13th Century, and the area settled by Pruzzen (Old Prussian) tribes for at least a millenium before that that were assimilated into Germany and went extinct around the 18th century. There have never been any Poles settling in Samland, Natangia, Warmia or Nadruvia (the area that makes up modern Kaliningrad oblast).
    How exactly do you mean that my ancestors went extinct? I think you mistake ur words Sir for we are patently still here. If you mean the geographical entity did not exist then you would be correct but the people and the identity remained and is happily flourishing again.

    As to Kalinin, no it is Prussian and you are correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray View Post
    Poles are the wonders of Europe!!

    They have been a source of world's problems.

    Big talk and no capability to put their money where their mouth is!
    Ray Sir, it is a source of problems to be between strong and greedy neighbours, or does the problem lie rather with the neighbours? To defend oneself is a matter of honour and principle. Or perhaps you condone such actions as the Nazi - Soviet carve up? Having read and learned from many of your posts I would hope not...

    Forgive me, this is not realy the place for this post but it is important that it is answered.

  3. #93
    Military Professional Ray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Kato


    How exactly do you mean that my ancestors went extinct? I think you mistake ur words Sir for we are patently still here. If you mean the geographical entity did not exist then you would be correct but the people and the identity remained and is happily flourishing again.

    As to Kalinin, no it is Prussian and you are correct.



    Ray Sir, it is a source of problems to be between strong and greedy neighbours, or does the problem lie rather with the neighbours? To defend oneself is a matter of honour and principle. Or perhaps you condone such actions as the Nazi - Soviet carve up? Having read and learned from many of your posts I would hope not...

    Forgive me, this is not realy the place for this post but it is important that it is answered.
    Snapper,

    That is right. It is a wonder how they exist!

    Throughout most of history, it has been the bone of contention and like the Balkan has been the tossed up and down!

    At times, it was a huge country (Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth), and at times, it never existed having been partitioned and parceled off (Russia, Prussia and Austria)!

    Talking of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, it just proves my point. This underscores the fact that none seem to take the Poles as an entity! Imagine, these two decided to divide Poland on their own and without even bothering about the Polish opinion!

    Why was it so? There are too many claimants to Polish lands, owing to Poland's turbulent history, and more so, it has too many ethnic groups apart from Poles, like Silesians and Kashubians, Germans, Belarusians, and Ukrainians, as well as Tatars, Lithuanians, Roma, Lemkos, Russians, Karaites, Slovaks, and Czechs. I believe there are also Greeks and Armenians too! This makes an explosive mixture since each will have varying ethnic interests too, even if they do not constitute a majority.

    It is happening even now.

    In 2006, the Prussian Trust, an organization representing German postwar expellees from Central and Eastern Europe, submitted a claim against Poland to the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg, alleging that Poland committed crimes during the forced evacuation of Germans to Germany in 1945.

    Poland is probably the only country in which large fractions of the national elites permit demands from abroad to be made against the nation, and question the necessity of structuring one’s responses to the world in terms of national interest. Members of such elites thus undermine the most self-evident principle of foreign policy: the defence of the interests of one’s country. The reasons for assuming such attitudes are numerous and include naiveté, intellectual besserwissenschaft, party fractionalism, and the habit of docility born during centuries of forfeited sovereignty. The most recent example is the situation that resulted from the demand by some German groups for financial reparations from Poland to partially compensate for Germans’ territorial losses after the Second World War (as I have mentioned).

    Of course, to defend one's land is a matter of honour and principle and I am not denying that. But it should be done with finesse so that it disarms the enemy (as the Chinese are doing)!

    I will also concede that my knowledge of the Polish history is not what I would have loved to have.

    One of the reasons for this is that in European history, the formation of Empires, States, Peoples has been a fast moving make and break kaleidoscope and all were so interconnected and complex that it make a vast subject by itself!

    Of course, this is off topic.

    It was just to clarify, so that you do not misunderstand the intent of my earlier post.
    Last edited by Ray; 16 Aug 08, at 05:16.


    "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

    I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

    HAKUNA MATATA

  4. #94
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    Thankyou Mr Ray.

    As regards the movement of Silesian Germans I would point out that the geographical movement of Poland in 1945 was Stalins idea and not that of a representative Polish government. Who carried out this movement? Not a Polish army but our beloved comrades in the Red Army who now target us with nuclear missiles for accepting the US missile shield! With neighbours such as that it is vital that a. the population grows (hence Catholicsm) and b. the population is trained in war.

    I do not accept your theory of the "habit of docility" as it was the very opposite attitude that enabled us to regain our sovereign independance.
    Regards.

  5. #95
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    Ethnic groups: Polish 96.7%, German 0.4%, Belarusian 0.1%, Ukrainian 0.1%, other and unspecified 2.7% (2002 census)

    https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat.../print/pl.html

    Very few countries in central Europe has such a high native ratio of population.

  6. #96
    Military Professional Ray's Avatar
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    The Poles figure includes some near Pole like too!

    Won't get into this any more.

    Too touchy!


    "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

    I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

    HAKUNA MATATA

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    How exactly do you mean that my ancestors went extinct? I think you mistake ur words Sir for we are patently still here. If you mean the geographical entity did not exist then you would be correct but the people and the identity remained and is happily flourishing again.
    The Pruzzen? They went extinct as a separate people. Intermarriage with Germans and Lithuanians, absorption of German, Lithuanian, Polish culture and language.

    No one speaks the Pruzzen dialect anymore, even handed down through families. As opposed to e.g. Jiddish and only a handful of other real dialects of German (Bavarian, Aleman etc are not dialects).

    "Prussia" - that is the state forming around the 17th/18th century - only took its name from the Pruzzen. None of the language, none of the culture, and definitely no ethnic ties. They absorbed the last remaining Pruzzen, much like they absorbed all minorities within their borders.

  8. #98
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    Kato Sir, Please forgive me. I mis-interpreted your meaning and thankyou for puuting me right!

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamantius View Post
    Oh my, I lost my 10 minutes deadline... What happens now?
    On the other hand, the reason was shrimps with pasta + greek salad so I'll take the blame.

    To get serious, I'll try to reply (although your empathy scares me i must say).

    1. I said some people, including you. Not you, specifically.
    2. Genocide has been conducted by NATO allies numerous times in the past. I don't see them being attacked, do you?
    And because you will ask, let me remind you the Armenians and the Pontic genocide by Turkey. Also the invasion of Cyprus (VERY equivalent to S. Ossetia and never condemned by NATO, although there are numerous UN resolutions against it).
    Let me also remind you that not only Serbs conducted genocide, but Croats as well. The difference is that most of them were let free by the International Tribunal, mainly thanks to the votes of the American judges.
    All in all, i DON'T endorse such actions. I already said in my first post that both Russians and NATO are SCUM in this regard. What bothers me is that many people here use different standards when judging.

    3. You didn't say it's ok, you didn't say it wasn't. Read above.

    4. No comments, really.
    the genocide is not true the facts that armenia have are not true if they were so true why explain this right after the 1st world war ended why explain these things right after world war 2 becouse they were tought to dictate lies by a bunch of nazis these facts are so hard to belive

  10. #100
    Military Professional Ray's Avatar
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    Georgia's Recklessness

    By Paul J. Saunders
    Friday, August 15, 2008; Page A21

    The fates of South Ossetia and Abkhazia are chief among the many issues that are still unresolved in the war between Georgia and Russia. What's clear, however, is that Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili ordered his country's military to assert his authority over South Ossetia by force. American officials should reflect on the implications of Saakashvili's behavior for U.S. policy toward Georgia, Russia and the region.

    Saakashvili ordered the assault last week knowing that South Ossetia would resist, knowing that his forces would have to take on Russian peacekeepers and knowing that Moscow has been spoiling for a fight. In fact, his own government had claimed for some time that Russia was preparing to attack.

    Georgia's president clearly thought that his troops could quickly occupy South Ossetia and that Russian President Dmitry Medvedev and Prime Minister Vladimir Putin would not dare to intervene because doing so might provoke the West, especially the United States. A similar logic underlies Tbilisi's long-term foreign policy calculations. Throughout history, weak nations with powerful neighbors have energetically sought strong allies. Serbia enlisted Russian support against the Austro-Hungarian Empire, for example, and Poland turned to Britain to deter Nazi Germany.

    Saakashvili has embraced this tried-and-true strategy with gusto, sending a substantial share of the country's small army to Iraq (from which its troops were understandably recalled in recent days) and parroting Bush administration talking points on international issues -- especially on promoting democracy -- more than almost any other leader worldwide.

    Ultimately, however, it wouldn't matter to Georgia's president whether the United States was a democracy, a theocracy or ruled by Martians so long as he could use Washington to change the dynamics of Georgian-Russian relations.

    Saakashvili's recent statements demonstrate how well he has learned to push America's buttons, probably with the help of his government's lobbyists in Washington. In several interviews and articles, including an op-ed in yesterday's Post, he has compared the recent Russian attack on Georgia to the Soviet invasions of Hungary, Czechoslovakia and Afghanistan. He has also invoked former president Ronald Reagan and tried to frame the war as a Russian assault on Western values. "We are attacked because we wanted to be free," he said on CNN.

    But the situation inside Georgia belies Saakashvili's rhetorical commitment to freedom. Most glaring was his handling of opposition protests last fall. The State Department's 2007 Human Rights Report, released just a few months ago, found "serious problems" with Georgia's human rights record and notes "excessive use of force to disperse demonstrations"; "impunity of police officers"; and declining respect for freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly and political participation. Ana Dolidze, a democracy advocate and former chair of Georgia's Young Lawyers Association, has described in detail how Saakashvili acted quickly after entering office to empower the executive branch at the expense of parliament and to strengthen the government by "stifling political expression, pressuring influential media and targeting vocal critics and opposition leaders" -- including by using law enforcement agencies. Saakashvili is far from the morally pure democrat he would have the West believe he is.

    Georgia's internal realities help make clear that the fighting erupted not primarily because of what the country represents but because of its government's actions. Tbilisi could have avoided the confrontation by deferring its ambitions to subjugate South Ossetia and pursuing them through strictly peaceful means.

    Few seem to remember that the United States and Russia worked together with the Georgian opposition to ease out then-Georgian President Eduard Shevardnadze and facilitate the election that ultimately brought Saakashvili into office. Russian views of Saakashvili changed over the past five years as Moscow perceived Tbilisi to become increasingly hostile and watched Saakashvili use threats of force to topple the government of another autonomous region, Ajaria, in 2004.

    None of this justifies Russia's actions. But even if Moscow had been lying in wait for Saakashvili to provide an excuse to act, it was all the more foolish for him to do so. Regrettably, the Georgian leader has allowed Moscow to demonstrate quite clearly the limits of American interests in Russia's immediate neighborhood. The Kremlin has much more at stake there than Washington and is willing to act decisively and with overwhelming force. Recognizing the potential global consequences of a serious break with Russia, America has not been willing to do more than provide humanitarian relief, pointedly state that U.S. forces would not protect the Georgian ports and airfields where the aid is to arrive, and dispatch Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to the scene.

    Allowing the graphic exposure of these realities is a major failure of U.S. policy that will undermine American objectives throughout the region. One hopes that in private, the Bush administration is clearly communicating to Moscow that whatever Saakashvili's failings, the United States will not tolerate his removal by force -- and telling the Georgian government that America doesn't need reckless friends.

    The writer, executive director of the Nixon Center, served as senior adviser to the undersecretary of state for democracy and global affairs from 2003 to 2005.

    Paul J. Saunders - Georgia's Recklessness - washingtonpost.com


    "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

    I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

    HAKUNA MATATA

  11. #101
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    I just came back from my vacation in Odessa, Ukraine.

    A couple of days ago I saw a mid-sized crowd waving 2 georgian flags on one of the central squares of the city. I didn't come closer but the goal of that meeting was pretty obvious: Yank... erm, Russians, go home!

    A friend of mine told me that he was offered like 20 bucks for 2-hours 'meeting', but he 'dared' to refuse...

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injecteer View Post
    I just came back from my vacation in Odessa, Ukraine.

    A couple of days ago I saw a mid-sized crowd waving 2 georgian flags on one of the central squares of the city. I didn't come closer but the goal of that meeting was pretty obvious: Yank... erm, Russians, go home!

    A friend of mine told me that he was offered like 20 bucks for 2-hours 'meeting', but he 'dared' to refuse...
    I am a quarter Ukranian, relatives live in Kiev. Last 10 years, when I went to them (blac sea, fruits and so on... =)) and tried to prove that Russia is not so bad as they think. They did not believe and we just tried not to discuss this. 3 days ago my syster came to Moscow: she was surprised. Prices are same with Kiev, but the average salary is 4-6 times higher. The price of prosperous democracy?

    Bought her a laptop and ps3 with some games. She was more than happy.

    By the way, she told me how she stood at Maydan few days for 40$ per day. It was a simple way to earn some monye and many of her friends were there for the same reason. And they keep going to demonstrations for money. Interesting, who pays for it?

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by SovietHonor View Post
    Really? And how do you know the threat of genocide wasn't real? Were you there? I can tell you the threat of genocide was very real. Had this same apologetics not existed 90 years ago, then perhaps the Armenian genocide could have been mitigated.
    Then hows about explaining away all those brand new blank Russian passports that were confiscated (approximately 2000 of them) all in sequencial order and the name holders blank mind you. Nothing peculiar about that huh? Sounds more like they were trying their best to create Russian citizens and justification then protect anybody. I cant wait to hear this explanation.
    Last edited by Dreadnought; 18 Aug 08, at 17:42.
    Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnought View Post
    Then hows about explaining away all those brand new blank Russian passports that were confiscated (approximately 2000 of them) all in sequencial order and the name holders blank mind you. Nothing peculiar about that huh? Sounds more like they were trying their best to create Russian citizens and justification then protect anybody. I cant wait to hear this explanation.
    As i said before: they NEED our passports with or without this war. They want to work here without problems. This is their way of living. And they even pay to recieve these passports (corruption).

  15. #105
    Defense Professional Dreadnought's Avatar
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    Sounds more like they were trying their best to create Russian citizens and justification then protect anybody. I still stand by that fact. The Russian government was planning this for some time.
    Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

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