View Poll Results: In current Russia-Georgia conflict, who is right?

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  • Russia

    82 53.95%
  • Georgia

    51 33.55%
  • Other

    19 12.50%
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Thread: In current Russia-Georgia conflict, who is right?

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by SovietHonor View Post
    Really? And how do you know the threat of genocide wasn't real? Were you there? I can tell you the threat of genocide was very real. Had this same apologetics not existed 90 years ago, then perhaps the Armenian genocide could have been mitigated.
    How was thier genocide? Seeking the expulsion of a hostile population to other location is not by itself genocide. After WW 2 to 3 million Germans were uprooted and sent else where as were at least a million poles. Yet we don't remembe rthese as genocides. The crime of genocide has very specific conditions

    The crime of "genocide" defined in internation law
    (printer friendly version of this page)


    The international legal definition of the crime of genocide is found in Articles II and III of the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide.

    Article II describes two elements of the crime of genocide:

    1) the mental element, meaning the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such", and

    2) the physical element which includes five acts described in sections a, b, c, d and e. A crime must include both elements to be called "genocide."

    Article III described five punishable forms of the crime of genocide: genocide; conspiracy, incitement, attempt and complicity

    Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

    (a) Killing members of the group;

    (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

    (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

    (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

    (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

    Article III: The following acts shall be punishable:

    (a) Genocide;

    (b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;

    (c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;

    (d) Attempt to commit genocide;

    (e) Complicity in genocide. "


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The international legal definition of genocide - Prevent Genocide International


    As you see, population transfers are not automatically genocide. If the Ossetians want to be Russian, they can move to Russia.

  2. #77
    Patron SovietHonor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    How was thier genocide? Seeking the expulsion of a hostile population to other location is not by itself genocide. After WW 2 to 3 million Germans were uprooted and sent else where as were at least a million poles. Yet we don't remembe rthese as genocides. The crime of genocide has very specific conditions

    The crime of "genocide" defined in internation law
    (printer friendly version of this page)


    The international legal definition of the crime of genocide is found in Articles II and III of the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide.

    Article II describes two elements of the crime of genocide:

    1) the mental element, meaning the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such", and

    2) the physical element which includes five acts described in sections a, b, c, d and e. A crime must include both elements to be called "genocide."

    Article III described five punishable forms of the crime of genocide: genocide; conspiracy, incitement, attempt and complicity

    Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

    (a) Killing members of the group;

    (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

    (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

    (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

    (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

    Article III: The following acts shall be punishable:

    (a) Genocide;

    (b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;

    (c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;

    (d) Attempt to commit genocide;

    (e) Complicity in genocide. "


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The international legal definition of genocide - Prevent Genocide International


    As you see, population transfers are not automatically genocide. If the Ossetians want to be Russian, they can move to Russia.


    Alright. Your definition explain exactly what happened in Georgia. The Geogians systemic seeked out nationalities which were "foreign" Armenians were killed out to Armenia and Russians to Russia. But where were Ossetians supposed to go? Leave their historic homeland?



    Your quote, "population transfers are not automatically genocide"

    Part of the definition which you quoted. "(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. "


    Ossetians were to be out of the territory and replaced with Geogians. Their territory was even recognized as its own SSR. Georgians looked for Ossetians and specifically hunted for them.

    I really love how you call a people who declared independence on their historic homeland "hostile" It reminds be of Turks calling Armenians "hostile" during the early 20th century.

    Kosovo Albanians were foreigners to Kosovo transplanted by the Turks and yet an Albania existed. Their tradgedy has been rightly called genocide.

    Ossetians don't want to be Russians because its the hip thing to do. Its so that they are protected from genocide and invasion. Being part of such a powerful nation does have its benefits. I doubt people from Guam love being Americans because its the coolest thing on earth, i think it might have something more to do from the economic and security benefits.



    Finally, this statement really irks me. "If the Ossetians want to be Russian, they can move to Russia"
    Last edited by SovietHonor; 15 Aug 08, at 01:44.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by SovietHonor View Post
    Alright. Your definition explain exactly what happened in Georgia. The Geogians systemic seeked out nationalities which were "foreign" Armenians were killed out to Armenia and Russians to Russia. But where were Ossetians supposed to go? Leave their historic homeland?
    It's not thier only homeland. Will Russia return the Kaliningrad oblast so it can be resettled by Poles?



    Your quote, "population transfers are not automatically genocide"

    Part of the definition which you quoted. "(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. "


    Ossetians were to be out of the territory and replaced with Geogians. Their territory was even recognized as its own SSR. Georgians looked for Ossetians and specifically hunted for them.
    The Ossetian SSR was never recognized. As for the transferrign Children it was added to prevent the further practice of taking children from one group (Aborigines or American Indians as examples) and transferrign them to foster families of another race/culture so they would lose thier cultural ties.

    Dealing specifically with the time after the collapse of the USSR, both sides hunted each other. The comparitve death counts on oth side slook like a war, not a genocide.

  4. #79
    Patron SovietHonor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    It's not thier only homeland. Will Russia return the Kaliningrad oblast so it can be resettled by Poles?





    The Ossetian SSR was never recognized. As for the transferrign Children it was added to prevent the further practice of taking children from one group (Aborigines or American Indians as examples) and transferrign them to foster families of another race/culture so they would lose thier cultural ties.

    Dealing specifically with the time after the collapse of the USSR, both sides hunted each other. The comparitve death counts on oth side slook like a war, not a genocide.


    Your first statement is irrelevant as it doesn't pertain to the matter. A more apporiate statement would have included Kosovo. Kosovo albanians were not native to Kosovo and yet became an independent state.

    The Ossetians SSR wasn't recognized? The fact that were even refer to it as the Ossetian SSR means that an Ossetian state did exist and it existed under the Soviet constitution. The S. Ossetians seceded with the full legal strength as did the Georgians, Armenians, Ukrainians etc.

    Your last and final statement is again eeriely similiar to the Turkish government position on the Armenian genocide. "It was a war, so people died"

    The fact is that when Ossetia declared independence, Georgians marched in and started to kill them. They looked specifically for Ossetians in the Ossetian homeland, of the Ossetian SSR; moreover it was recognized by Georgians as well as all the other SSRs in the Soviet Union.


    Just realized this statement as well.


    "How was thier genocide? Seeking the expulsion of a hostile population to other location is not by itself genocide"

    Taking 2 million Armenians, led by convicts, and dumping them in the Syrian desert with no food or water isn't genocide?
    Last edited by SovietHonor; 15 Aug 08, at 02:10.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by SovietHonor View Post
    Your first statement is irrelevant as it doesn't pertain to the matter. A more apporiate statement would have included Kosovo. Kosovo albanians were not native to Kosovo and yet became an independent state.
    I didn't speak out in favor of Kosovo.

    The Ossetians SSR wasn't recognized? The fact that were even refer to it as the Ossetian SSR means that an Ossetian state did exist and it existed under the Soviet constitution. The S. Ossetians seceded with the full legal strength as did the Georgians, Armenians, Ukrainians etc.
    When the Soviet Union was formally dissolved there was no Ossetian SSR.

    Your last and final statement is again eeriely similiar to the Turkish government position on the Armenian genocide. "It was a war, so people died"
    Turkish officials are trying to hide a crime, I am saying that what happened in Georgia in 1991 was not genocide.

    Just realized this statement as well.


    "How was thier genocide? Seeking the expulsion of a hostile population to other location is not by itself genocide"

    Taking 2 million Armenians, led by convicts, and dumping them in the Syrian desert with no food or water isn't genocide?
    North Ossetia is ruled by convicts has no water and is in the middle of the Syrian desert? <sarcasm> Thier is a huge differance from telling some one you have to move, and movign them to a place they cannot survive. Turkish officials intended the extermination of the Armenians. Sending the South ossetians to Russia when they accpeted a Russian passport is hardly extermination.

    Again udner the principle that hostile populations that are a threat to the epace. Population transfers are not explicity illegal in and of themselves.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnut View Post
    I have a question. Big nations bully small nations, that's just the way it is. Why is it that people want to form ever smaller nations and then complain when they get bullied?
    They don't really want to create smaller nations, they want to 'villagise' (new word) their environment. In other words keep to themselves and control themselves, contribute as little as possible to anything else without outside 'interference': except when the bullies come along when they immediately want everyone else to fight for them. Same thing you get in the schoolyard
    In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

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  7. #82
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    Seems to me that encouraging South Ossetians to move to North Ossetia, as long as it is not done by physical threat etc cannot be classed as "genocide".

    Take for example the financial inducements offered to British people to move to Australia in the past...this is much the same in principle and nobody condemned the British Government for genocide against it's own people.

  8. #83
    Patron SovietHonor's Avatar
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    Apologetics. If by encouraging you mean the barrel of a gun....

  9. #84
    Military Professional Ray's Avatar
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    Genocide, in today's world, is the most loosely used word to startle and shock.

    Any war or insurrection is termed as genocide!

    No end of exmples!


    "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

    I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

    HAKUNA MATATA

  10. #85
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    Having thought a bit more about this it seems to me that most colonisation has been accomplished by a form of ethnic or social cleansing, from the convicts to Australia to the incentives offered to Scots etc to move to Canada and the esatblishment of a protestant community in Northen Ireland from Elizabethan times. It has all been an attempt to transplant some unwanted social or ethnic group to another place or in tha case of Northen Ireland to offer incentive to a wanted class. None of them class as 'genocide' in that in most cases there was at least a chance of survival.

    In the case of South Ossetians with Russian passport asking them to remove to Russia is simply saying they are persona non gratia - like some English football supporters are regularly sent home from abroad. Genocide? I think not.

    I agree that genocide is the new buzz word for crying foul and the press need to stop repeating such claims when clearly they in many cases they amount only to personae non gratii. (Hope my Latins OK).

  11. #86
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    Alright. So tell me that you don't call this situation genocide.


    Georgians come into S. Ossetia. If you don't leave this land, we will kill you.

  12. #87
    Field mechanik Senior Contributor omon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray View Post
    Genocide, in today's world, is the most loosely used word to startle and shock.
    yep, true that, some call abortion genocide.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" B. Franklin

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    It's not thier only homeland. Will Russia return the Kaliningrad oblast so it can be resettled by Poles?
    What Poles?
    Kaliningrad was German since the 13th Century, and the area settled by Pruzzen (Old Prussian) tribes for at least a millenium before that that were assimilated into Germany and went extinct around the 18th century. There have never been any Poles settling in Samland, Natangia, Warmia or Nadruvia (the area that makes up modern Kaliningrad oblast).

  14. #89
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    Poles are the wonders of Europe!!

    They have been a source of world's problems.

    Big talk and no capability to put their money where their mouth is!


    "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

    I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

    HAKUNA MATATA

  15. #90
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    YouTube - Fox News: 12 Year Old Girl Tells the Truth about Georgia


    Nice how the ass ends it with "there are Grey areas in war" "Thats what the Russians want you to think"

    this was the first time i actually saw an Ossetian on TV and how fast they were cut off.

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