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In current Russia-Georgia conflict, who is right?

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  • #61
    Oh my, I lost my 10 minutes deadline... What happens now?
    On the other hand, the reason was shrimps with pasta + greek salad so I'll take the blame.

    To get serious, I'll try to reply (although your empathy scares me i must say).

    1. I said some people, including you. Not you, specifically.
    2. Genocide has been conducted by NATO allies numerous times in the past. I don't see them being attacked, do you?
    And because you will ask, let me remind you the Armenians and the Pontic genocide by Turkey. Also the invasion of Cyprus (VERY equivalent to S. Ossetia and never condemned by NATO, although there are numerous UN resolutions against it).
    Let me also remind you that not only Serbs conducted genocide, but Croats as well. The difference is that most of them were let free by the International Tribunal, mainly thanks to the votes of the American judges.
    All in all, i DON'T endorse such actions. I already said in my first post that both Russians and NATO are SCUM in this regard. What bothers me is that many people here use different standards when judging.

    3. You didn't say it's ok, you didn't say it wasn't. Read above.

    4. No comments, really.

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    • #62
      Pontic genocide? Don't think NATO existed then so how can you say Turkey was a NATO member at the time?

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      • #63
        "Genocide" is always a relative term. What happened in Georgia, 2000 civilians dead at most - and even those spread between the warring factions? That's not genocide. That's not even an atrocity, as it's typically been called. That's pretty standard collateral damage, actually even rather low for urban combat.

        People are damn fast throwing around the word genocide nowadays.

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        • #64
          Indeed if Genocide were a global flu pandemic this war is a tummy upset! Upleaseant and regretable it is - "genocide" it is not.

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          • #65
            Basically all Russia did was to issue passports to these people that were under threat of "genocide" which we know didnt exist. Russia used it as a ploy to invade Georgia so basically showing the world her hand and how the regime will play ball and that Putin once again leads the team not the elected fellow as we suspected.

            So lets see all we need to do is be like Russia, Issue passports claim a genocide threat exists for "our citizens" and then invade a soverign country. Anybody for Cuba? Mexico? Venezuala or other?

            Say hows about we do the very same thing and still run the oil lines through the Caspian and around Russia.

            Once again back to old tricks. Pathetic!
            Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by kato View Post
              "Genocide" is always a relative term. What happened in Georgia, 2000 civilians dead at most
              Not unless they were going from house to a house, and finally rounded all Osetians up and shred them into pieces with daggers. Starting with children. And it looks like this is just what happened...

              So right now Moscow got some cards in their sleeve and they are not really rushing to play it.

              Didn't the whole operation looked very carefully executed to you? I would not dismiss anything that Russia did or say there so easily.

              P.S. IMHO They just want all Saakasvili supporters to get involved, so that plays against all of them later.
              Last edited by lurker; 14 Aug 08,, 18:24.

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              • #67
                Give the Georgians US passports. Russians are in Gerogia....Moscow here we come! Easy!

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                • #68
                  Except the majority of South Ossetians wanted to be part of North Ossetia/Russia during the breakup of the USSR, they didn't want to be part of Georgia. Hence the war they had with Georgia. Hence the reason that there is this problem in the first place.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by King Six View Post
                    Except the majority of South Ossetians wanted to be part of North Ossetia/Russia during the breakup of the USSR, they didn't want to be part of Georgia. Hence the war they had with Georgia. Hence the reason that there is this problem in the first place.
                    Exactly. Georgia is far from blameless in this. IMHO however the biggest stirrer has been Russia who has played off one against the other for their own game.
                    In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                    Leibniz

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                    • #70
                      Does anybody doubt that Russia had the capability and opportunity to control the South Ossestian militia to the extent that they would not have been able to cause ANY provocation to Georgia, while at the same time maintain Osset de facto independence. In other words, actually act as competent peacekeeper? Russia can neutralize the Georgian military in less than a week, but can't control the Osset who have been conducting attacks on Georgian villages regularly before the Georgian Army responded?

                      Whatever reassurance the west gave Georgia that it might be supported in its actions, it is nothing compared to the physical presence Russia maintained in the break away provinces for the past 15 years. If Russia were truely interested in preserving Osset life, let alone human life in general, they could have acted to prevent provocations and responded to any Georgian provocation proportionately, while pursuing sanction of Georgia short of invasion either unilaterally or better yet, through the international community.

                      It seems that Russia was fully preparred to launch a full scale, practically unlimed attack on Georgia, but not preparred to competently perform peacekeeping duties that has been their stated mission for the past fifteen years. The only logic behind this is that Russia used the Ossets as an excuse to START a conflict with Georgia to serve Russian goals. I find it hard to believe that the loss of life means much to the Russian leadership given their reluctance to prevent this war.
                      The SWO

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by mweber24 View Post
                        Does anybody doubt that Russia had the capability and opportunity to control the South Ossestian militia to the extent that they would not have been able to cause ANY provocation to Georgia, while at the same time maintain Osset de facto independence. In other words, actually act as competent peacekeeper? Russia can neutralize the Georgian military in less than a week, but can't control the Osset who have been conducting attacks on Georgian villages regularly before the Georgian Army responded?

                        Whatever reassurance the west gave Georgia that it might be supported in its actions, it is nothing compared to the physical presence Russia maintained in the break away provinces for the past 15 years. If Russia were truely interested in preserving Osset life, let alone human life in general, they could have acted to prevent provocations and responded to any Georgian provocation proportionately, while pursuing sanction of Georgia short of invasion either unilaterally or better yet, through the international community.

                        It seems that Russia was fully preparred to launch a full scale, practically unlimed attack on Georgia, but not preparred to competently perform peacekeeping duties that has been their stated mission for the past fifteen years. The only logic behind this is that Russia used the Ossets as an excuse to START a conflict with Georgia to serve Russian goals. I find it hard to believe that the loss of life means much to the Russian leadership given their reluctance to prevent this war.


                        well said!

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by GraniteForge View Post
                          I'm not going to defend Georgia's ill-prepared attack, but do you really need to bring ancient tribal/ethnic slurs to the discussion? After all, the Russians spent a long time as doormats for the Tatars, and one can tell endless stories of how the Russians set new standards for grovelling.
                          What slur did i use/?

                          Russians being doormats saved Europeans from becoming pyramids of skulls.
                          Last edited by SovietHonor; 15 Aug 08,, 01:08.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Dreadnought View Post
                            Basically all Russia did was to issue passports to these people that were under threat of "genocide" which we know didnt exist. Russia used it as a ploy to invade Georgia so basically showing the world her hand and how the regime will play ball and that Putin once again leads the team not the elected fellow as we suspected.

                            So lets see all we need to do is be like Russia, Issue passports claim a genocide threat exists for "our citizens" and then invade a soverign country. Anybody for Cuba? Mexico? Venezuala or other?

                            Say hows about we do the very same thing and still run the oil lines through the Caspian and around Russia.

                            Once again back to old tricks. Pathetic!


                            Really? And how do you know the threat of genocide wasn't real? Were you there? I can tell you the threat of genocide was very real. Had this same apologetics not existed 90 years ago, then perhaps the Armenian genocide could have been mitigated.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
                              Exactly. Georgia is far from blameless in this. IMHO however the biggest stirrer has been Russia who has played off one against the other for their own game.
                              I have a question. Big nations bully small nations, that's just the way it is. Why is it that people want to form ever smaller nations and then complain when they get bullied?
                              "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Dreadnought View Post
                                Basically all Russia did was to issue passports to these people that were under threat of "genocide" which we know didnt exist. Russia used it as a ploy to invade Georgia so basically showing the world her hand and how the regime will play ball and that Putin once again leads the team not the elected fellow as we suspected.

                                So lets see all we need to do is be like Russia, Issue passports claim a genocide threat exists for "our citizens" and then invade a soverign country. Anybody for Cuba? Mexico? Venezuala or other?

                                Say hows about we do the very same thing and still run the oil lines through the Caspian and around Russia.

                                Once again back to old tricks. Pathetic!

                                It all goes back to the 1991 war where there were atrocities committed by Georgians against the Ossetians. The Russians did not want a repeat of that so they protected the Ossetians by isssuing passports. Any move by Georgia would have justified action to the Russians.

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