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In current Russia-Georgia conflict, who is right?

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  • Originally posted by Taurkon View Post
    At the end of the day, Georgia appears to be the biggest looser here. It has pretty much guaranteed exclusion from NATO, lost a good piece of land, and alienated it's self from any allies it previously had.
    Well, not everything is so simple. It August Georgia was in one step from bankruptcy. Now they recived billions of help from USA and EU "to restore country after russian invasion". Saak bought some time for himself at cost of several thousands lives and now have a perfect excuse - "Look there is a crisis everythere".

    Iceland is trying to play the same game now, offering russians a military base to scare the West. Expect Ukraine to become "a victum of russian provocation" soon.
    Last edited by NUS; 20 Nov 08,, 05:40.
    Winter is coming.

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    • Georgia is our new gate for trading between east-west.Thanks to USA for these opportinity.Usa and EU will take benefits from caucasian oil-gas reserves.I understand that why russia worries when they invaded georgia.

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      • Originally posted by Shipwreck View Post
        What are you trying to suggest here ?
        Perhaps the pot calling the kettle black? Perhaps sour grapes based upon his interview?
        Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

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        • Originally posted by Taurkon View Post
          Dreadnought, you are arguing from one perspective, yet this situation looks vastly different if you look at it from the other side. It could be argued that the Russians had caught wind of a planned attack on Tskhinvali months before it occured, and not knowing the timing, moved forces within strike distance "in case". Further more, manned and unmanned flights over Georgia easily can be explained by Russia as "Monitoring" the situation. This is something the US has been accused doing a number of times in the past.

          There are no "Facts are Facts" at this time, other than Georgia attacked and unarmed civilian township and Russia attacked (not invaded as you indicated) Georgia proper, while putting a stop to Georgian attacks on Tskhinvali.

          What I believe to be a true statement though, is that NO western country would have behaved as Georgia did based on what some folks indentify as Russian provocation. Georgia was completely out of line, and to argue that their actions were justified is nonsense.
          *If Russia wanted to monitor the situation she does have about 4 military birds in orbit that could have easily "monitiored the situation" instead they chose a much more aggressive stance by flyovers. Pretty much propting Georgia to defend her own air space after Russian warplanes shoot down a UAV over their own airspace.

          26 May 2008 – UN Observer Mission in Georgia (UNOMIG) confirms Georgian UAV shot down by Russian jet in Abkhazia on 20 April

          *Keep in mind this is April.

          Unarmed civilian township? If memory serves an "exchange" involves more then one side.

          14-15 June 2008 – Reports of an ‘intensive’ exchange of fire outskirts of Tskhinvali between Georgian and South Ossetian troops.

          29-30 July 2008 – South Ossetia accuses Georgia of shelling villages outside of Tskhinvali. Georgia asserts that South Ossetians directed fire towards its monitoring group.

          What I believe to be a true statement though, is that NO western country would have behaved as Georgia did based on what some folks indentify as Russian provocation. Georgia was completely out of line, and to argue that their actions were justified is nonsense.

          Well if thats what you believe the by all means believe.
          Last edited by Dreadnought; 20 Nov 08,, 15:26.
          Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

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          • This is a classic case of finding policies to suit one'saggressions.

            I couldnt agree more.
            Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Shipwreck View Post
              If Georgia was soooo innocent, why did Saakashvili LIE in a recent interview to SPIEGEL ?



              Mmmmmmmmmhhhhhhhhh................
              And the Russian Defense Ministry, From your same article?

              In the Red Star account, Captain Denis Sidristy, the commander of a company of the 135th Motorized Infantry Regiment, describes how he and his unit were already in the Roki Tunnel, on their way to Tskhinvali, in the night preceding Aug. 8. Did Moscow's invasion begin earlier than the Russians have admitted, after all?

              No kidding?

              Last week, Moscow investigators also conceded, for the first time, that the number of civilian casualties of the Georgian assault on Tskhinvali was not 2,000, as Russian officials have repeatedly claimed, but 134.

              Must have failed math in high school huh? Glad they dont do my taxes

              When asked about the account in the Red Star, a spokesman for the Russian Defense Ministry told SPIEGEL that it was the result of a technical error. Moreover, the spokesman said, the official in question had been wounded and therefore "could no longer remember the situation clearly."

              Must have been amnesia huh?

              Last Friday Captain Sidristy, since decorated with the Russian defense ministry's order of bravery, was given a second opportunity to describe his version of the events to the Red Star. His unit, he said in his revised version, had advanced on Tskhinvali somewhat later than he had told the paper the first time.

              You dont say?;)

              As it appears, it is still difficult to separate truth and lies about the brief war in the Caucasus.

              http://www.spiegel.de/international/...8273-2,00.html
              Last edited by Dreadnought; 20 Nov 08,, 15:45.
              Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

              Comment


              • *If Russia wanted to monitor the situation she does have about 4 military birds in orbit that could have easily "monitiored the situation" instead they chose a much more aggressive stance by flyovers. Pretty much propting Georgia to defend her own air space after Russian warplanes shoot down a UAV over their own airspace.

                26 May 2008 – UN Observer Mission in Georgia (UNOMIG) confirms Georgian UAV shot down by Russian jet in Abkhazia on 20 April
                excerpt from http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/20...ia_uav_091608/

                “Using the Tu-22 for a reconnaissance mission over Georgia was the same as using a microscope to drive nails,” he said.

                Less than a month after fighting ended, Russian leaders have begun taking steps to fix problems by increasing the number of satellites in the country’s Global Navigation Satellite System.

                Putin signed an order to increase funding to launch 30 more satellites by 2011.
                It was suggested (and makes sense) that Russia was using birds like the Tu-22's for recon during the conflict due to the lack satellites. If this was true during the conflict, I would also assume this to be true pre-conflict.

                Unarmed civilian township? If memory serves an "exchange" involves more then one side.

                14-15 June 2008 – Reports of an ‘intensive’ exchange of fire outskirts of Tskhinvali between Georgian and South Ossetian troops.

                29-30 July 2008 – South Ossetia accuses Georgia of shelling villages outside of Tskhinvali. Georgia asserts that South Ossetians directed fire towards its monitoring group.
                I would not argue that both the Ossetians and Georgians were shelling each other. However, I have never read any account that sounded like these were artillery barrages. What type of artillery was being used? Motars or 122mm howitzars? There needs to be some perspective here.

                Well if thats what you believe the by all means believe.
                Respectfully, do you have any recent examples of a western nation attacking a civilian population with non-precision weapons such as grad launchers?

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                • Originally posted by Taurkon View Post
                  It was suggested (and makes sense) that Russia was using birds like the Tu-22's for recon during the conflict due to the lack satellites. If this was true during the conflict, I would also assume this to be true pre-conflict.
                  Mig-25R and Mig-31's would be a better better they can fly higher anmd faster and already have the camera and sensor pods. Also there were 3 of them, 1 shot down 2 damaged- it was a bomber raid that was aborted.

                  Respectfully, do you have any recent examples of a western nation attacking a civilian population with non-precision weapons such as grad launchers?
                  Israeli used of cluste rmuntions over Tyre and Beruit if those caims by lebannon and hezzbollah are truthful.

                  However Georgia should be judged by what its neighbors do. Russia certainly does not use PG's in densly populated areas. In Georgia and and Chechnyia they used Iskander missiles with a CEP of 20M meaning half the missiles will land 20 meters or more away from thie target.

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                  • However Georgia should be judged by what its neighbors do.
                    I would find it extremely unusual that NATO would consider admission of a country while setting the expectations bar at the same level as that countries adversaries.

                    Israeli used of cluste rmuntions over Tyre and Beruit if those caims by lebannon and hezzbollah are truthful.
                    hezzbollah! :)):)):)):)) I was looking for something a tad more concrete, but in fairness, I did ask for any western example.

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                    • Originally posted by Taurkon View Post
                      I would find it extremely unusual that NATO would consider admission of a country while setting the expectations bar at the same level as that countries adversaries.
                      Most recent NATO admitees are still not at a true western level. Its goal not a requirement.

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                      • Granted, but all recent NATO members are stable, and act in accordance with international guidelines.

                        Regardless of who you point the finger at, would you not agree that current Georgian leadership is a great example of "One of these things is not like the other...". The force used by Georgia would not be tollerated by the citizens of any other NATO country.

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                        • The force used by Georgia would not be tollerated by the citizens of any other NATO country.


                          Nor the force and antagonism used by the opposite side.;)
                          Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

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                          • Originally posted by zraver View Post
                            Mig-25R and Mig-31's would be a better better they can fly higher anmd faster and already have the camera and sensor pods. Also there were 3 of them, 1 shot down 2 damaged- it was a bomber raid that was aborted.



                            Israeli used of cluste rmuntions over Tyre and Beruit if those caims by lebannon and hezzbollah are truthful.

                            However Georgia should be judged by what its neighbors do. Russia certainly does not use PG's in densly populated areas. In Georgia and and Chechnyia they used Iskander missiles with a CEP of 20M meaning half the missiles will land 20 meters or more away from thie target.
                            http://www.novayagazeta.ru/data/2008/83/08.html
                            Вообще-то «Искандером» наши целили в грузинскую армейскую базу рядом с Гори, но промазали на сотни метров и попали по жилым кварталам.
                            loose translation - actually our guys aimed ´Iskander´s´ at georgian army base next to Gori, but missed by hundreds of meters and hit living areas
                            If i only was so smart yesterday as my wife is today

                            Minding your own biz is great virtue, but situation awareness saves lives - Dok

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                            • Originally posted by braindead View Post
                              http://www.novayagazeta.ru/data/2008/83/08.html
                              Вообще-то «Искандером» наши целили в грузинскую армейскую базу рядом с Гори, но промазали на сотни метров и попали по жилым кварталам.
                              loose translation - actually our guys aimed ´Iskander´s´ at georgian army base next to Gori, but missed by hundreds of meters and hit living areas
                              Is that a direct translation?
                              If so I need it

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                              • Yes, as far as i can tell, my translation is as good as it gets.
                                But the article is written by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavel_Felgenhauer, who is , AFAIK , a bit controversial figure.
                                If i only was so smart yesterday as my wife is today

                                Minding your own biz is great virtue, but situation awareness saves lives - Dok

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