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Healing from the American Civil War

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  • #16
    [QUOTE=TopHatter;534055]

    One of the larger surprises I've ever had.

    But not, I venture to suggest, as great as finding out who Father Christmas really was or the true identity of the Tooth Fairy! :))
    Semper in excretum. Solum profunda variat.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by glyn View Post
      But not, I venture to suggest, as great as finding out who Father Christmas really was or the true identity of the Tooth Fairy! :))
      Never believed in any of that stuff to begin with, so not really, no. :)
      “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

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      • #18
        OoE, I am curious. From your perspective during your time in the field, what were the major obstacles to healing and unification that you observed?
        It is time to shut up and color

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        • #19
          Husband cannot forgive brother-in-law for killing wife/sister.

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          • #20
            1. Grant did not decide to allow the lenient terms for the ANV on his own. This was determined two weeks earlier in a meeting at City Point aboard the "River Queen" when Lincoln told his generals ot let them down easy. Grant, in fact, was in favor of unconditional surrender if he could get it. But he took his guidance from his commander in chief and allowed for parole. Sherman, in fact, would get in trouble for his interpretation of the guidance when he allowed for too generous terms initially to Joe Johnston a few days after Appomattox. Sherman also gave terms for the Confederate government, something he had no authority to do. Grant stuck strictly to terms regarding the ANV and military matters and refused to talk about the Confederate government.

            2. Lee helped by not following Jefferson Davis' wishes for a continuation of the war and sending the ANV to scatter into the hills. He knew his men had fought long and hard. Of course, Lee had no real choice. He was cut off at Appomattox...there was no way to get to the link up with Johnston and he had last a third of his army 3 days prior at Saylor's Creek. He was out of room, rations and luck. His decision to issue his General Order # 9 did do quite a bit to temper his soldiers feelings. Also, his admonishments to theveterans over his remaining years to be good citizens helped as well.

            3. As has already been said the worst thing to happen to the South post war was Lincoln's assassination. This emboldened the Radical Republicans even more and helped insure that a hard reconstruction would follow.

            4. The South's entire economy was wrecked as a result of the war. With the end of slavery much of the wealth of the South disappeared. Slave holders were not compensated for their losses at the end of the war so thousands of dollars were lost in most cases. Industry and transportation had been wrecked and land values plummeted. Even when the 12 years of occupation under Reconstruction ended the South was destitute...much land passed into Northern hands (carpet baggers) since the Southerners often couldn't afford their own land. Much of the economic prosperity of the Induystrial Revolution did not touch the South until World War II!

            5. As for Vicksburg...I had always heard that story about the 4th of July. So last September when I was on a tour I asked Terry Winchell, the historian for Vicksburg NMP, about that very question...and he confirmed it was true.
            “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
            Mark Twain

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
              (Lee) His decision to issue his General Order # 9 did do quite a bit to temper his soldiers feelings. Also, his admonishments to the veterans over his remaining years to be good citizens helped as well.
              3. As has already been said the worst thing to happen to the South post war was Lincoln's assassination. This emboldened the Radical Republicans even more and helped insure that a hard reconstruction would follow.
              Good post. Especially reemphasizing the consequences of Lincoln's assassination.

              It may be helpful here for others to read Lee's field order so as to grasp the dignity of his words. These words were indeed the first balm on the wounds of a nation.

              ---------------------------------------------------------------------



              Hd Qurs Army Northern Virginia
              10th April 1865
              General Order
              No 9

              After four years of arduous service, marked by unsurpassed courage and fortitude, the Army of Northern Virginia has been compelled to yield to overwhelming numbers and resources.

              I need not tell the brave survivors of so many hard fought battles who have remained steadfast to the last, that I have consented to this result from no distrust of them, But feeling that valor and devotion could accomplish nothing that could compensate for the loss that would have attended the continuance of the contest, I determined to avoid the useless sacrifice of those whose past services have endeared them to their countrymen.

              By the terms of the agreement, Officers and men can return to their homes and remain until exchanged. You will take with you the satisfaction that proceeds from the consciousness of duty faithfully performed and I earnestly pray that a merciful God will extend to you His blessing and protection.

              With an unceasing admiration of your constancy and devotion to your country, and a grateful remembrance of your kind and generous consideration of myself, I bid you all an affectionate farewell.

              R E Lee
              Genl
              Last edited by GAU-8; 21 Aug 08,, 15:59.

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              • #22
                I pulled this from another discussion board. I wish I could give whoever compiled it my thanks. Here was a supreme act of reconciliation:


                On the evening of April 9, 1865, General Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain received orders from General Grant that Chamberlain would receive the formal surrender of the Confederate Army. “A representative body of Union troops was to be drawn up in battle array at Appomattox Courthouse, and past this Northern delegation were to march the entire Confederate Army, both officers and men, with their arms and colors, exactly as in actual service, and to lay down these arms and colors, as well as whatever other property [that] belonged to the Rebel army, before our men.” The Confederates had heavily protested this ceremony calling it an act of humiliation. General Grant insisted on the ceremony, specifically citing the generous terms that he had offered to the fallen South.

                The night before the formal surrender, General Chamberlain had decided to salute the Army of Virginia. The decision “was one for which I sought no authority nor asked forgiveness. Before us in proud humiliation stood the embodiment of manhood: men whom neither toils and sufferings, nor the fact of death, nor disaster, nor hopelessness could bend their resolve; standing before us now, thin, worn, and famished, but erect, with eyes looking level into ours, waking memories that bound us together as no other bond; was not such manhood to be welcomed back into a Union so tested and assured?” The next morning, on April 12, the salute was rendered.

                “When General Gordon came opposite of me, I had the bugle blown and the entire line came to ‘attention’…The General was riding in advance of his troops, his chin drooped to his breast, downhearted and dejected in appearance almost beyond description. As the sound of that machine like snap of arms, however, General Gordon started, caught in a moment of its significance, and instantly assumed the finest attitude of a soldier. He wheeled his horse facing me, touching him gently with the spur, so that the animal slightly reared, and as he wheeled, horse and rider made one motion, the horses head swung down with a graceful bow and General Gordon dropped his swordpoint to his toe in salutation…On our part, not a sound of trumpet more, nor the roll of drum; not a cheer, nor word nor whisper of vain-glorying, nor motion of man standing again at the order, but an awed stillness rather, and breathing-holding, as if it were the passing of the dead.” After the war, General Gordon would address Chamberlain as “one of the knightliest soldiers of the Federal Army.”

                As other units passed Chamberlain, one Confederate said as he was delivering his flag, “boys, this is not the first time you have seen this flag. I have borne it in the front of battle on many victorious fields of battle and I had rather die than surrender it to you.” Chamberlain replied, “I admire your noble spirit, and only regret that I have not the authority to bid you keep your flag and carry it home as a precious heirloom.” One officer said to Chamberlain, “General, this is deeply humiliating; but I console myself with the thought that the whole country will rejoice at the day’s business. Another officer said, “You astound us by your honorable and generous conduct. I fear that we should not have done the same to you had the case been reversed.” A third officer went even farther by saying, “I went into that cause I meant it. We had our choice of weapons and of ground, and we have lost. Now [pointing to the Stars and Stripes] that is my flag, and I will prove myself as worthy as any of you.”

                However, most of the Confederates were too humiliated to be reversed so quickly. General Wise told Chamberlain, “You may forgive us but we won't be forgiven. There is a rancor in hour hearts which you little dream of. We hate you, Sir...you go home, you take these fellows home. That’s what will end this war.” Chamberlain replied, “Don’t worry about the end of the war. We are going home pretty soon, but not till we see you home.” No matter how ill Chamberlain’s salute to the fallen South may have been received, it still remains one of the greatest acts of honor in the military history of the United States.



                References
                Chamberlain, Joshua Lawrence.“Bayonet! Forward” My Civil War Reminiscences.
                Gettysburg: Stan Clark Military books, 1994.

                Chamberlain, Joshua Lawrence. The Passing of the Armies: The Last Campaign of the
                Armies. Gettysburg: Stan Clark Military books, 1915.

                Dllard, Wallace M. Soul of the Lion; A Biography on General Joshua L. Chamberlain
                Gettysburg: Stan Clark Military books, 1960.

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                • #23
                  This is the one which hangs in my study
                  Attached Files
                  “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                  Mark Twain

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by GAU-8 View Post
                    I take away from my own family's history that the rift between the North and South stemmed more from the reconstruction/occupation years than the four years of war.
                    I believe you are correct. It's not that the south was defeated; it's that the defeated south was "dissed," to put it in the language of some of today's youth.

                    Many in the south probably looked at it this way (and their descendants continue to look at it this way): the north had a huge advantage in men and materials; yet, in spite of these advantages, it took them four years of hard fighting to defeat the south (and at times the defeat seemed less than certain). Then they rubbed the south's nose in it with reconstruction.

                    Kind of like a healthy high school senior just barely beating a sick high school freshman and then having the audacity to strut around school saying "Kicked your ass, man!" Maybe that's overstated but it's not far off the mark.
                    Last edited by Rifleman; 22 Aug 08,, 18:07.

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                    • #25
                      I feel one of the bigger reasons there was a "healing" was that by and large, conditions in The South sort of reverted to the status before the war.

                      It wasn't long before the people in charge before the war were back in charge in one form or another, blacks were once again under the yoke in the form of restrictive legislation and economic and social repression (along with quite a few poor white folk), and the North being the economic master.

                      So in other words...back to business as usual.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Rifleman View Post
                        I believe you are correct. It's not that the south was defeated; it's that the defeated south was "dissed," to put it in the language of some of today's youth.

                        Many in the south probably looked at it this way (and their descendants continue to look at it this way): the north had a huge advantage in men and materials; yet, in spite of these advantages, it took them four years of hard fighting to defeat the south (and at times the defeat seemed less than certain). Then they rubbed the south's nose in it with reconstruction.

                        Kind of like a healthy high school senior just barely beating a sick high school freshman and then having the audacity to strut around school saying "Kicked your ass, man!" Maybe that's overstated but it's not far off the mark.
                        Okay, lets stir the pot some more....and lets look at things from the point of the view of the Federals.

                        1. As the war ended, the President was assassinated. That enraged and embittered large segments of society and it certainly did nothing to asuage feelings in the North towards a magnanimous attitude towards the South.

                        2. The South took up arms against the central government. In most faield revolutions fo the 18th and 19th Century, what happened to the leaders? If Lucky then were sent into exhile. In most countries they were tried for treason and executed. Remember what happened to the Loyalists in the US after the Revolution? Wholesale exportation to Canada. Okay, so of the hundreds of federal officers (Army and Naval officers, Senators and Congressmen, members of past cabinets, post office officials, etc) who had sworn an oath of allegience to defend the Constitution prior to the Civil War, how may were tried for treason after the Civil War? Exhiled?

                        3. There is no doubt that much of Reconstruction was ham handed and overly harsh...but look at 1 & 2 and you can see some reasons. But also recognize that some of it was a sincere attempt to improve life in the South especially for the former slaves (look at O.O. Howard and the Freedmen's Bureaus, etc.)

                        I would say to expect an easy let down from the North after the war is expecting too much.

                        I think it was more of a grudging coexistence because there was really no other choice.
                        “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                        Mark Twain

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                        • #27
                          OK, pot stirred.

                          Given your knowledge on the subject, I can't help but point out to readers that your points 1. and 2. are somewhat simplified.

                          Point 1: Valid but misleading. Lincoln was the last brake against a vengeful cabinet. Had he been killed in a carriage accident, the result would have been the same--the brake had been "released." The assassination fanned the flames of indignation and gave the original culprits a greater hand.

                          Point 2. The move toward war started with South Carolina's secession. This was not the first time S.C. threatened secession. The first time, under President Jackson saw Jackson threaten S.C. with armed intervention. S.C. backed down but gained some of the concessions she wanted. No war and the hotheads in S.C. learned a new trick to wrangle concessions from the more powerful federal government. State's Rights awkwardly and dangerously validated.

                          S.C. was indeed rash to fire on the flag when she did. After that, the fat was in the fire. No person will ever know but I imagine with Jackson in mind, Lincoln called up 75,000 federal troops to quell the succession threat quickly. I don't think he wanted war but I'll never know.



                          My questions:

                          Had S.C. stayed her hand and waited for federal troops to march, would that have altered feelings in the North?

                          If the North would have been the aggressor, would the South, defending against an invading federal force at the behest of the industrial North alter how the war was perceived to the average citizen?

                          Did "who fired first" set the stage for reconstruction?
                          Last edited by GAU-8; 25 Aug 08,, 18:15.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by GAU-8 View Post
                            OK, pot stirred.

                            Given your knowledge on the subject, I can't help but point out to readers that your points 1. and 2. are somewhat simplified.

                            Point 1: Valid but misleading. Lincoln was the last brake against a vengeful cabinet. Had he been killed in a carriage accident, the result would have been the same--the brake had been "released." The assassination fanned the flames of indignation and gave the original culprits a greater hand.

                            Okay but if he had been killed in a buggy accident it would have been deemed an accident...not seen as the last desperate act of a rebellious force...which is how the assassination was viewed by the Lincoln Cabinet and the nation.

                            Point 2. The move toward war started with South Carolina's secession. This was not the first time S.C. threatened secession. The first time, under President Jackson saw Jackson threaten S.C. with armed intervention. S.C. backed down but gained some of the concessions she wanted. No war and the hotheads in S.C. learned a new trick to wrangle concessions from the more powerful federal government. State's Rights awkwardly and dangerously validated.

                            John C. Calhoun resigned as vice president over the Nullification Crisis and made Jackson a political enemy for the rest of his life.

                            Good explanation of the Nullification Crisis here.

                            Nullification Crisis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


                            S.C. was indeed rash to fire on the flag when she did. After that, the fat was in the fire. No person will ever know but I imagine with Jackson in mind, Lincoln called up 75,000 federal troops to quell the succession threat quickly. I don't think he wanted war but I'll never know.

                            Remember, it was this act which caused Virginia, Arkansas and North Carolina, more than anything else, to seceed.



                            My questions:

                            Had S.C. stayed her hand and waited for federal troops to march, would that have altered feelings in the North?

                            If the North would have been the aggressor, would the South, defending against an invading federal force at the behest of the industrial North alter how the war was perceived to the average citizen?

                            Did "who fired first" set the stage for reconstruction?

                            It would not have been seen as the North, it would have been the Federal Government. If SC had not fired (fat chance of that!) then VA & NC may very well have reponded with their militia forces to support the Federal Government. I keep stressing Federal rather than North for a reason since it was based on that and not on geography.


                            All of that said, once Lincoln won the election of 1860 the Deep South was bound and determined to secede because of the belief that Lincoln was an abolitionist.
                            Last edited by Albany Rifles; 25 Aug 08,, 19:33.
                            “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                            Mark Twain

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                            • #29
                              Good point making the distinction between Federal and North.

                              Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
                              If SC had not fired (fat chance of that!)...
                              Roger that.
                              What's that old saying so famous in South Carolina?:


                              "South Carolina is too small to be a nation and too large to be an insane asylum"

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                              • #30
                                Roger that.
                                What's that old saying so famous in South Carolina?:


                                "South Carolina is too small to be a nation and too large to be an insane asylum"[/QUOTE]


                                I almost sprayed soda all over my computer screen!!!:)):))
                                “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                                Mark Twain

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