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Australian Academic Accuses US and Aussie forces of Committing War Crimes in Fallujah

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  • Australian Academic Accuses US and Aussie forces of Committing War Crimes in Fallujah

    The Australian academic Chris Doran in his article on Online Opinion on August 3, 2008, accuses and condemns the Coalition forces in their attack on Fallujah on October 2003 of breaching the Geneva Conventions and of committing war crimes. But in his passionate condemnation he disregards the fact that wars are not fought by holding the sword in one hand and the Ten Commandments in the other. An ineradicable law of war is that its prolongation increases its brutality in 'geometrical' proportions and hence its casualties in civilians and the military. The action in Fallujah had the strategic goal to shorten the war. Fallujah was a hornet's nest of foreign and local jihadists who were not only manufacturing the lethal car bombs but also sending their suicidal fanatic warriors in other cities of Iraq.

    The collateral civilian casualties, not in the huge fictional figures presented by the writer of the article, were inevitable in a war that the enemy uses civilians, and, indeed, members of his own family and relatives as a shield. And the question arises who is the real moral culprit and war criminal in such a case. It's obvious however, that Doran has no propensity to even deal with this question, least of all answer it.

    Special Forces War Journal

  • #2
    Do you mind posting the original article by Dolan? I can't get the Google links to work. Thanks.
    "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Shek View Post
      Do you mind posting the original article by Dolan? I can't get the Google links to work. Thanks.
      Here you go;

      The reality of Australia’s collateral damage in Iraq - On Line Opinion - 4/8/2008

      The comments attached to the story are also worth reading.:)

      On Line Opinion - Australia's e-journal of social and political debate,
      is a free, weekly e-mail newsletter that I think is sponsored by the Brisbane Institute.
      Most but not all stories are from a left wing point of view.

      Cheers.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by captain View Post
        Here you go;

        The reality of Australia’s collateral damage in Iraq - On Line Opinion - 4/8/2008

        The comments attached to the story are also worth reading.:)

        On Line Opinion - Australia's e-journal of social and political debate,
        is a free, weekly e-mail newsletter that I think is sponsored by the Brisbane Institute.
        Most but not all stories are from a left wing point of view.

        Cheers.
        I was able to see the general's response. Simply beautiful.
        "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

        Comment


        • #5
          So what's the solution, if any?

          War crimes and/or collateral damage are nothing to worry about because 'war is hell'?
          HD Ready?

          Comment


          • #6
            shek,

            I was able to see the general's response. Simply beautiful.
            where can one see that?
            There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

            Comment


            • #7
              The facts about Fallujah

              Below is Major General Jim Molan's reply to Doran's article.

              The Australian August 02, 2008 | 26 Comments


              CHRIS Doran (Letters, 1/8) is entitled to his view, but he gets just about everything wrong about my account of the Iraq war. I did not sanitise the events of my year in Iraq; I wrote to shed light on the complexities of the conflict. The battle of Fallujah was not under my direct command, it was under the command of a US general. The assault was neither disproportionate nor was it indiscriminate; it was conducted strictly in accordance with the laws of armed conflict and undertaken to remove a safe haven for terrorists/insurgents whose crimes against the people we have publicly documented. Despite being run by imperfect humans, it was probably more discriminating than any other battle.


              White phosphorous is as terrible as any battlefield weapon but it is not a chemical weapon and is not illegal if used against enemy forces as it was in Fallujah. If it had been used intentionally against Kurdish civilians, that would have been a crime—just as bullets used intentionally against any civilians is a crime.

              Far from closing down Fallujah’s hospital, the coalition took it away from insurgents who were using it as a headquarters and propaganda centre. We then provided other medical facilities until we re-opened the hospital. At no stage did we ever intentionally fire on ambulances giving aid and we often refrained from firing on ambulances which were regularly and criminally misused by our enemy, for example in Najaf. Cluster bombs were never used. Larger 2000-pound bombs were only used on one occasion to blow holes in a railway embankment. US snipers shooting civilians is an accusation rebutted by embedded media at the time.

              Chris, you and I may not agree on much about the Iraq war but you have the benefit of a knowledge-free vantage point. I’m hampered by knowing at least some facts. Please read the book.

              Jim Molan
              Canberra, ACT
              Source; Letters Blog | The Australian

              And, the first page of comments re Molan's response, from the armchair experts.

              Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
              Patricia
              Sat 02 Aug 08 (09:34am) Why are Iraqis in their own nation called “insurgents” and “terrorists” and the foriegn invaders called “the coalition”?
              Would this rule also apply if the Iraqi military came to invade the US...and how would the US population act should this happen?

              Patricia
              Sat 02 Aug 08 (09:40am) Jim Molan may wish that he had let sleeping dogs lie. There is nothing to take pride in in regards the horror that was inflicted on the men, women and children of Iraq when the US, and camp followers, invaded their nation.
              There is no doubt about the millions of displaced human beings, the hundreds of thousands bereaved, maimed tortured and murdered.
              Instead of trying to justify just one horror, he would be better employed apologing and trying to make amends to those left to deal with their grief and suffering...AND doing all he can to ensure no more such invasions occur.

              Henk Verhoeven
              Sat 02 Aug 08 (09:49am) Laws of armed conflict? Yes, but whose laws...? Anyway, are there not thoroughly bad laws? And is it not also true that good laws are frequently ignored? Glad to hear cluster bombs were not used. OK, but the US has used them in other places, and has an arsenal of those fiendish things. Incidentally, three Aussie banks have investments in cluster bomb manufacturing plants, and so do a few foreign financial establishments active in Australia. (I believe good old Singapore - the nation that locks up or hangs anyone found to be in possession of even a small quantity of certain drugs - is one place where cluster bombs are manufactured.)

              S Perry
              Sat 02 Aug 08 (10:10am) Great letter. Again, Chris Doran, having gotten his “information” from Noam Chomsky, really doesn’t do himself any credit. Jim Molan was there and was aware of what actually happened. Try and beat that Chris.

              Bobby
              Sat 02 Aug 08 (10:59am) It is pleasing that Jim Molan corrected this obvious misinformation about Fallujah from Chris Doran.
              A soldiers life is surely hard enough now with all the challenges they have to face without being regularly targeted as gangsters and criminals.
              The freedom to spruik such rubbish as Chris has done has been earned by the sacrifices of past generations of soldiers.
              It is a pity people with Chris’s sentiments didn’t think before they tore into the efforts of our present day soldiers who are defending our freedom into the future just as surely as any soldier has in the past.
              I for one will be reading Jim Molan’s book on Iraq.

              Gidgee
              Sat 02 Aug 08 (11:36am) “The battle of Fallujah was not under my direct command, it was under the command of a US general” so says Mr Molan as if that, in some bizarre and off-hand way, exonerates the illegal and murderous US-led invasion of the peoples “between the rivers” - an ongoing heavily-armed rampage and occupation solely undertaken, by the predatory Yankee’s Commander-in-Chief (the facilitating US General’s fuhrer - George W Bush) to enable and promote the scandalous theft of the assets and the land of Iraqi natives.
              The debate is becoming decidedly insane as high-minded “pundits” attempt to justify and shamelessly skew and red-herring one of mankind’s more recent shows of utter barbarity designed and planned, in distant Washington, to gain a lucrative march.

              Gidgee
              Sat 02 Aug 08 (02:08pm) Dear Bobby - I was an Oz soldier, once, in a time now long ago, and far away.
              In that Australian uniformed capacity I took part in killing others but it was deemed, even by some of the brave enemy, that our cause was just, and theirs was distressingly, not.
              Don’t tell me about the dignity of soldiering - there is really none - one does what one is told - one does not question - one is there to do or die - that is the eternal lot of a trained man-at-arms.
              It is annoying in the extreme for some latter day commentator/s to loftily talk and write of that which was, then, considered a just and honest war as if by uttering such a truth the writer can justify the barbarity which is going on, right now, in Afghanistan and Iraq.
              The war that I took part in, Bobby, was to stop aggression - the wars that my country’s people are now compelled to take part in are entirely different - the purging and destruction of Afghanistan and Iraqi infrastructure and peoples is a shameful blot on the illustrious record of the courageous invading men and women involved; men and women in uniform who have no lawful choice but to bear arms against those their/our temporal political masters determine to be fair game…
              We, of late, Bobby, have lost the way; we have abandoned humanity; we have insulted the term “civilisation"…
              Instead of repeatedly trying to explain and justify what we have so brutally done let us face the reality of it.....and, having grasped the nettle, move to make serious amends.

              Pete
              Sat 02 Aug 08 (02:36pm) ... “to enable and promote the scandalous theft of the assets and the land of Iraqi natives.”
              Theft of WHAT assets???? According to,
              US Auditor Says Funding For Iraqi Rebuilding Should Cease - CommonDreams.org
              Rising production and skyrocketing prices could more than double the Iraqi government’s expected bonanza in oil revenue this year. “ With oil now hovering around $125 per barrel — about five times what it was five years ago — and Iraq’s oil production at record levels, SIGIR estimates that oil revenues for 2008 could exceed $70 billion,”
              Regular gas at the chevron station down the street is $4.86 a gallon. Just where pray tell has all this stolen oil GONE???? I for one have not seen any of it.
              AGAIN I ASK YOU “WHAT ASSETS”???? and what LAND??? I haven’t see any adds for free or land for sale in Iraq here in the US.
              But you’re right, Saddam was a really nice guy, he only murdered a few hundred thousand Kurds and Shiites and if left alone would have murdered a few hundred thousand more by now. France and Russia would have forced the UN to lift the sanctions against Saddam and he would have been merrily making chemical and biological WMD’s. By the way did you read the story that Saddam ACTUALLY had 606 Tons of Uranium Yellowcake that was Spirited to Canada. So much for Joseph Wilson’s lie one of many that you and others faithfully believe as true.
              606 Tons of Saddam's Uranium Yellowcake Spirited to Canada - IRIS Blog

              spud
              Sat 02 Aug 08 (03:14pm) So in other words Gidgee, your war was justified and noble, but everyone else’s is not!!! Methinks thou dost protest too loudly by half, and yes, one might wonder about why you draw these judgements with respect to what you see as the criminal complicity and culpability of soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan, while arguing in your own case that you were just doing what you were told. One also wonders about the state of mind that would say it was OK in the case of your war for your army to fight in other countries against people who were guilty of murdering and terrorising the local populace, but it is not OK for others to do that now. Perhaps you can enlighten us; just when is it OK and when is it not?

              Qwon
              Sat 02 Aug 08 (03:31pm) Patricia, many of those fighting the coalition in Iraq are not Iraqis. They are called insurgents because that is the type of warfare they are conducting, or they are called terrorists because they are causing great terror to (mainly) those who they are suposedly battling to ‘save’ - namely the Iraqi people. You may not be aware, but the majority of civilian casualties are not inflicted by coalition forces, but by these insurgents who frankly couldn’t care less about the Iraqi’s.
              As to your second comment: “Would this rule also apply if the Iraqi military came to invade the US...and how would the US population act should this happen?” Yes t would. The Iraqi’s if they had another nation or nations assistance would in all likelihood name themselves after some form of coalition, and doubtless they would label any insurgents as terrorists. Its all a matter of perspective. I’m sure Al Jezeera calls the resistance in Iraq ‘freedom fighters’ or somesuch, and the americans as the invaders.

              kenj
              Sat 02 Aug 08 (03:40pm) Jim Molen can select his facts and words as he pleases. Mike Marquesse (Guardian Nov 2005) records Fallujah this way:
              .
              “The assault was preceded by eight weeks of aerial bombardment. US troops cut off the city’s water, power and food supplies, condemned as a violation of the Geneva convention by a UN special rapporteur, who accused occupying forces of “using hunger and deprivation of water as a weapon of war against the civilian population”. Two-thirds of the city’s 300,000 residents fled, many to squatters’ camps without basic facilities. By the end of operations, the city lay in ruins. Falluja’s compensation commissioner has reported that 36,000 of the city’s 50,000 homes were destroyed, along with 60 schools and 65 mosques and shrines. The US claims that 2,000 died, most of them fighters. Other sources disagree. When medical teams arrived in January they collected more than 700 bodies in only one third of the city. Iraqi NGOs and medical workers estimate between 4,000 and 6,000 dead, mostly civilians—a proportionately higher death rate than in Coventry and London during the blitz.”
              .
              This attack was “neither disproportionate nor indiscriminate”, nor was it was conducted “strictly in accordance with the laws of armed conflict.”
              Mike Marqusee: The destruction of Falluja was an act of barbarism that ranks alongside My Lai, Guernica and Halabja | World news | The Guardian

              Gidgee
              Sat 02 Aug 08 (03:41pm) Dear Pete...the country of Iraq (and embattled Afghanistan) is, currently, occupied by US-led foreign armed forces who are treating the place/s as theirs to have and hold; it’s as simple as that.
              Furthermore, Pete, the deadly alien occupying forces have easily inveigled themselves with the Quisling or Petain-like puppet “government” now in Baghdad’s highly protected US-dominated Green Zone - that “government”, so often quoted by the American forces as if it is actually running the sham, has been easily coerced into passing Iraqi legislation which effectively gives carte blanche access and provision, to outsiders, to Iraqi oil - with a mere fraction of the overall (oil) quota going to the benefit of the natives of that brutally occupied land.
              Your apparent annoyance, Pete, is understandable - I think I would probably feel the same if I was a patriotic US citizen - it must be terribly distressing to be a part of a wealthy nation which has sold its very soul in order to “legally” steal and control that which is not the US’s to own, or control.

              kenj
              Sat 02 Aug 08 (03:53pm) And, Jim Molen, white phosphorous is a chemical weapon in real terms and it can’t distinguish between enemy forces and civilians. It forms a burning cloud that kills anyone within 150 metres. An Italian state television produced a documentary recording the grossly burned remains of women and children at Fallujah. An Iraqi Health Ministry investigator Dr. Khalid ash-Shaykhli reported these details at a Western media briefing (Mar 18 2005) and that “burning chemicals” had been used by US forces in the attack, in direct violation of international and American law, usage reportedly confirmed by after action reports posted by Marines writing on blogs for their families at home. Fallujah was an attack upon a civilian population, all good intentions aside.
              Chris Floyd: the White Death of Fallujah

              jzab
              Sat 02 Aug 08 (04:01pm) Very well stated, Pete.
              Both you and Jim Molan deal in facts and not hyperbole.

              kenj
              Sat 02 Aug 08 (04:13pm) Pete (02:36pm) disputed the theft of Iraqi assets. I can only suggest you google the new US-Iraqi oil contracts which hand effective ownership of nearly 80% of Iraq’s oil to mostly US oil companies. Since oil is 95% of Iraq’s GDP these contracts constitute an effective theft of most of the Iraqi economy. Alan Maas, Richard W. Behan and Pepe Escobar have written detailed analyses of these contracts. You might also care to review Naomi Klein’s seminal article “Pillaging Iraq”.
              Baghdad year zero: Pillaging Iraq in pursuit of a neocon utopia, By Naomi Klein (Harper's Magazine)
              .
              Your claim that Sadam “spirited” 606 Tons of Uranium Yellowcake to Canada is also specious. It has only 483 google links, mostly to right wing blogs, none to mainstream Western media. Ambassador Joseph Wilson reportedly truthfully from Niger that no uranium had been sought there by Iraq. The original claim had been based on a document rejected immediately by the CIA as a blatant forgery. They advised Bush of this and he ignored them. A later US Congressional Inquiry found no evidence whatsoever for any Iraqi nuclear weapons program. Your claims are false.

              Tom W.
              Sat 02 Aug 08 (04:31pm) “An Italian state television produced a documentary recording the grossly burned remains of women and children at Fallujah.”
              Yup. The doc also featured an American “soldier” who called white phosphorus “whiskey pete,” when in fact real American soldiers call it “willie pete.”
              He also spoke of “30mm chain-gun missiles,” although no such weapon exists. It’s either a chain gun or a missile. It can’t be both, any more than an animal can be a hummingbird and a hippo at the same time.
              Finally, he referred to M2A2 Bradley fighting vehicles as “tanks.” No soldier would make that mistake. They’re AFVs, not tanks.
              Kind makes you wonder about the accuracy of the rest of the documentary.
              As for the notion that the Iraqis signed over 80 percent of their oil revenue to the U.S., all I can say is that I genuinely worry about the future of the west, when so many people unquestioningly believe even the most infantile fairy tales.

              kenj
              Sat 02 Aug 08 (05:03pm) Tom W, the Iraqi Health Ministry investigator Dr. Khalid ash-Shaykhli is clearly a product of my fetid imagination. I apologize. The Iraqis haven’t “signed over 80 percent of their oil revenue”. If you had followed recent media reports at all you would have known that the al Maliki government is resisting US pressure to sign these contracts. Since the simplest of googling seems to be beyond some commenters, here are some links. They’re stealing a nation.
              Asia Times Online :: Middle East News - US's Iraq oil grab is a done deal
              From Afghanistan to Iraq: Connecting the Dots with Oil | War on Iraq | AlterNet

              Daniel Lewis
              Sat 02 Aug 08 (05:44pm) Millions, Patricia?
              Are you sure it’s not billions or zillions?

              Marcus
              Sat 02 Aug 08 (07:40pm) What, Tom W (4:31pm), you mean those “infantile fairy tales” about how Saddam Hussein had WMD’s? Or perhaps the fairy tales about his links to Al Qaida? Oh, or perhaps its that infantile fairy tale about how Bush invaded Iraq to bring “democracy and human rights” to the Iraqi people? (well, when no WMD’s or terrorist links surfaced-at any rate)
              Yep, what hope for the West when neo-cons like yourself are prepared to unquestioningly support invasions of sovereign nations on the basis of the most infantile fairy tales?

              daisy mae
              Sat 02 Aug 08 (07:41pm) Actually, Kenj, 550 tons of yellowcake, presumably a leftover from Saddam’s time, were indeed shipped to Canada, though not by Saddam. The whole exchange took place last month, after a Canadian firm bought the yellowcake from the current Iraqi government. The yellowcake was (for obvious reasons) shipped surreptiously to avoid any “incidents”. The whole story was reported in all the major Canadian news media, including the CBC, CTV and the Globe and Mail, none of which are “right wing blogs.” Incidentally, there are 750,000 google hits on the story, not 483.

              xzins
              Sat 02 Aug 08 (09:31pm) A terrorist is a terrorist because his chosen intentional target is a non-combatant. An insurgent is an insurgent because he is part of an irregular armed force that fights against a larger armed force by means of sabotage and harassment. In Iraq, the terrorists were primarily Al Qaeda, and they were not, in most cases, native Iraqis. They might have been welcomed at early points in the conflict, but their strategy of murdering Iraqis made them unwelcome in Iraq. Likewise, the “insurgents” in Iraq who were locally led were mollified by advances of the new Iraqi government, so that they now work with it rather than against it. Remaining pockets of resistance in Iraq, and there are very few at this point, continue to be terrorist in nature.
              Face facts, the conflict in Iraq is over...in the mop-up phase. It is being won by the Iraqi government’s military superiority. Accept it. The new Iraqi government is in power, and they are there to stay.

              Bernie
              Sun 03 Aug 08 (07:21am) Bloody marvelous how a simple declaration of war can sanitise, civilise, legalise social destruction.
              What if the declaration was flawed or in this case not formal?

              ziggy
              Sun 03 Aug 08 (04:49pm) The basic fact remains that the Western invaders occupy Iraq under false pretences, namely to further their selfish objectives - the main one being to control one of the biggest oil reserves in the world. Our platitudes are a pathetic attempt to hide the harsh realities of daily lives in Iraq. Why doesn’t our “free” press make frequent reference to the many deaths and the never-ending physical and mental sufferings the Iraqis have to endure because of our aggression. We are the real terrorists, not the local patriots who stand up to the military might of the West and the collaborators and traitors who aid and abet them. Would Jim Molan gleefully greet anyone who enters his home uninvited and make him or her feel welcome?

              TerryS
              Sun 03 Aug 08 (05:03pm) As usual, the armchair experts know what actually happened at Fallujah based on their preferred media releases. Why are Jim Molan’s first hand observations less credible than the third hand, edited views of the Guardian and Italian State television? Imagine trying to find political truth in Australia if we relied on the SMH, the Age and our ABC only. I think it’s important to listen to someone who was there; we might actually learn something.

              peter hindrup
              Mon 04 Aug 08 (02:52am) The hospital was in the hands of insurgents?
              Actually the hospital was in the hands of the Iraqi doctors who fled from the approaching forces because doctors were often enough shot, or arrested for ‘assisting the insurgents’. * Although, as the Doctor in charge of the hospital at the time remarked bitterly, ‘the Americans made no objection when we helped the American wounded.’
              Established medical ethics that doctors treat sick, the injured, the wounded.
              This was the doctor who made the decision to leave the three wounded Iraqis who were too sick to move, who were murdered in the hospital by the invading troops.
              Yes, I have heard this mans story and seen the slides shown in support of that story.
              * there are over 3000 Iraqi doctors imprisoned ‘for assisting the insurgents’.
              Cheers.

              Comment


              • #8
                It has been pointed out to me that I made an error as to the date of the attack on Fallujah. The attack occurred in November 2004 and not on October 2003.
                I apologise to the readers of this post for my mistake.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Fallujah debate seems to be hotting up down under

                  The anti Jim Molan piece was also featured here:
                  http://www.homepagedaily.com/Pages/a...-criminal.aspx
                  and has lead to another blistering attack on the conduct of the Fallujah op.
                  The critic refers to ther Battle Book published by the U.S. Command and General Staff College at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, which allegedly states "It is against the law of land warfare to employ WP against personnel targets."
                  Plus lotsa nasty accusations being hurled at U.S forces. Wonder whether it was really such a good idea from Jim to write the book ....

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Time to be environmental friendly and recycle some pertinent threads to the subject.

                    http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/war...ans-repor.html

                    http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/war...tml#post162742
                    "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by HistoricalDavid View Post
                      So what's the solution, if any?

                      War crimes and/or collateral damage are nothing to worry about because 'war is hell'?
                      Only go to war if you can save more lives then you will lose. <- my opinion. Too bad we don't have a crystall ball that gives us that sort of information. And every event triggers billions of other events that no one can foresee. I quite like the UN's POV that nations should only go to war in case of genocide, don't know how that would work in the real world though.
                      Last edited by JamesCash; 16 Aug 08,, 17:19.
                      Knowledge is annoying
                      -K. Pilkington

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        How Lovely Is This?

                        "Chris, ...you have the benefit of a knowledge-free vantage point. I’m hampered by knowing at least some facts."

                        What a superb put-down...:))
                        "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                        "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by JamesCash View Post
                          Only go to war if you can save more lives then you will lose. <- my opinion. Too bad we don't have a crystall ball that gives us that sort of information. And every event triggers billions of other events that no one can foresee. I quite like the UN's POV that nations should only go to war in case of genocide, don't know how that would work in the real world though.
                          James,

                          I am not aware that this is the UN POV on war. The United Nations sanctioned the 1991 Gulf War under authority of resolution 678, to stop an unlawful attack made by one country against another. While the UN puts heavy restraint on the pre-emptive use of force, there are conditions under which the invasion of a rogue state is premitted, even if it had not made the first blow.

                          For the most part I agree with your opinion; I would argue that a nation can wage a just war if it can be reseasonably judged at the time that more lives could be saved by it, or it was necessary to compel a state or an organization to desist from its current course of evil by the force of arms.

                          At the first case my collary would differenciate a wrongful act from a laspe of judgement. The second is that if it becomes a confirmed fact that a state is planning to or is already committed to make an unjust war, then in my opinion, it becomes meaningless to compare the human costs because lives lost by the victim state of unjust aggression outweighs the lives of the people of the aggressor, who is not in the right.

                          My personal feeling is that the a case can be made that the Iraq War represented a lapse of judgement on the political leadership at its decision to go to war or the chosen strategies at implementing the war, or both. The case against the war in Iraq as an unjust war is much weaker.
                          Last edited by Triple C; 17 Aug 08,, 09:08.
                          All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
                          -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Bombs exploding in Baghdad as I write; 4 million Iraqis displaced (half of them abroad) most in poverty, including the cream of academia; little success with infrastructure and a savage collapse of U.S moral authority .... and yet some still think the invasion was honorable. Beats me. History will not shine kindly on neocons.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Platodada View Post
                              Bombs exploding in Baghdad as I write; 4 million Iraqis displaced (half of them abroad) most in poverty, including the cream of academia; little success with infrastructure and a savage collapse of U.S moral authority .... and yet some still think the invasion was honorable. Beats me. History will not shine kindly on neocons.
                              Any bombs exploding are the exception. Security incidents in the greater Baghdad now have a mode of 0, zero, nada, nothing. Politics is breaking out. The war has been won and we now have a chance to win the peace and suspect we will be much more successful the second time around. Displaced Iraqis are moving back into their neighborhoods (albeit at a slow pace), with the leadership from both the Sunni and Shia within these neighborhood encouraging this.

                              Instead of trying to write history before it happens, let's keep our eyes on developments and remain in the present and not embrace the narrative that emerged from the failing state status that Iraq teetered on in 2006-7, but has since been overcome by events on the ground.
                              "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

                              Comment

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