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does the Zumwalt being canceled change anyone's opinion on the Iowas?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by eocoolj View Post
    Well, the Oriskany was laid down more than a year before Trinity, so I think its a safe bet that a large portion of the ship is radiation-free. And I realize that recovering the steel, whether its from an Iowa or an Essex, is probably pretty expensive. I'm just pointing out that its not as impossible to come by as you make it out to be, if you have the money.
    I'm afraid you are not understanding the logistics of it, neither economically, nor engineeringly or historically or physically, so I'll go thru each though not necessarily in that order.

    Let's look at Oriskany's history first. They tried to scrap her, twice. Each time the company she was sold to defaulted and the Navy had to take repossession. I would imagine that in the end, faced with the need to get her off the books, shallow sixing her was the best option....and gave the Navy good public relations. I'll get to all the interesting little things, engineering wise, about ship scrapping in a moment.

    Look at the construction history: Launched after Trinity. Construction suspended at 85% a year after Trinity. Torn down to 60%, rebuilt, commissioned in 1950. I've got a nasty suspiscion that the metal added after Trinity potentially radiated the armor before (assuming) Trinity, thus reducing the value as radiation free steel. Now, that's just a guess, but it works on a similar but not the same notion to decommissioning a nuclear ship or power plant. In this case, assuming that it is correct, it is not enough to harm you, but it is enough to reduce its viability as instrumentation shielding. Physically speaking.

    You make the comment that it is possible if one has the money. Who has the money? Let's look at the three potential people in the deal: the Navy, the breakers, the lab. The Navy or MARAD wants to get the ship off its books ....but given the repossessions, it would seem that they are still responsible for it until it is gone. The breakers want to make money. And the lab wants to do what it does while not spending a whole lot of money doing things that support its mission without making accomplishments.

    Ship Breaking, at least in the first world, takes capital, it costs people thousands of dollars a day for a berth, and one can't afford to sit around hoping that someone will buy a certain piece.......because if they do, they go bankrupt. One has to move what they have, one way or the other.

    This site: http://www.orednet.org/~rbayer/salvage/ should give enough references of how financially unsure that business is. Now, I haven't been thru all the listings there to verify them all ....... but I have researched the subject enough to believe that the ones I have read are true. That's the economic side of the issue.

    Engineering: I know of three ways at least of scrapping a ship. All of them involve the basic principle of keeping the ship balanced while it is taken apart. In short, one does not start at the belt armor.

    If one has environmental concerns in mind, they can tie the ship to a dock or put it in an inlet, put out containment barriers, cut the ship down from the top leaving enough elevation of the outer skin to prevent runoff, and continue doing so until they can drag the ship ashore. As with the USS Cabot or USS Enterprise (both navsource). One of the key elements is the keep the ship in trim while it is in the water, so as a part of the bow is lost,something is taken from the stern and visa a versa.

    Or, one can put the ship into the drydock and work on it there, like the USS Barney at Philly (navsource). That makes containment easier but can drive the cost up.

    If there isn't a concern for the environment or the workers, then one might go the way of Alang and beach the ship. such as the ex-Norway (see bottom of page at http://www.midshipcentury.com/) or the Moscow (http://www.bobhenneman.info/Breakers5.htm).

    Now, another little point or two on economics. Those who own the ship have to find someway to get rid of it. Ie, finding someone to buy it while keeping up with the regulations that they are under. Many years ago, there was an article that showed how the Navy wasted money by sending ships to the torch while still having tools aboard such as drill presses. Well, the opposite side of the coin was that it would both involve cost to remove all such devices from the ship and by leaving such things aboard the ship, it increased its selling value. It wasn't worth the cost to the owner to go in and remove such tools from the ship but to the person breaking up the ship, it was an additional bonus.

    Ever wonder why we are doing so many SINKEX's these days? I would suspect that for a deep water sinking, the cost of preparation is a lot less than continual storage or environmental clean up for scrapping.

    It's not a simple business at all.
    __________________________________________________ _____
    ("I'll take care of all the arrangements."--Waldo Trumbull
    "Huh?"--new widow
    "I'll bury him for you.", (wtte), "The Comedy of Terrors")
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    Last edited by SnowLeopard; 21 Mar 09,, 09:41.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by eocoolj View Post
      Aren't the 16" turrets and the citadel about the heaviest armor on the ship, and reasonably accessible?
      For one turret alone you looking basically at the weight if a WWII destroyer, Somewhere in the area of 2,200 tons for each. The conning tower and the barbetts share the same thickness of armor 17.3" until the taper at the bottom. The barbetts are actually in pieces (7) I believe before being installed and held together by custom made keys at the yard that built them.
      Then you have the citidel bulkheads fore and aft which are heavily armored and make up the end sections of the armored citidel with the side belts ofcoarse making up the sides of the citadel and the the armor surrounding the steering gear. Then you still have the armor deck and other armor such as the armor protecting the 5"/38 mounts, CEC etc. The is a vast amount of armor used on the ships but getting at it requires alot of thought and safety and some of the arrangements armor wise have been upgraded or added to since any of them were launched.
      Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

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      • #33
        Looking at pictures of a ship being broken up, kinda breaks your heart.

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        • #34
          Gents, An answer to many questions.. Light cruisers such as CL-144 Worchester and CL-145 Roanoke were scrapped and their armor ended up in the scientific arena such as
          here.

          "Casting about for an inexpensive source of the huge quantities of steel needed at the Laboratory, a cooperative arrangement was developed with the U.S. Navy to acquire the heavy armor plate from retired fighting ships and the lead ballast from submarines when such ships are dismantled. The armor plate of some 18 Navy ships - ten heavy cruisers, five aircraft carriers and three submarines - now serves the experimental areas at Fermilab"

          http://history.fnal.gov/vessels.html;)
          Last edited by Dreadnought; 23 Mar 09,, 21:41.
          Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by DocHayes View Post
            Looking at pictures of a ship being broken up, kinda breaks your heart.
            yes it sure does.. I'd rather them be used as a target for military, than cut up for scrap and sold to Japan or Korea...

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            • #36
              I fear a visit by the Necro God himself and his women minions.
              Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

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              • #37
                I prefer to see the old ships recycled.
                There are 4 aircraft carriers in storage right now + the JFK. These ships will be partially dismantled and then taken out for Sinkex. The thing here is, their hulls are HTS and STS steel that is very high grade and still worth a lot of money and it was made here in the USA not the suspicious graded stuff from China. Oh and the hanger decks on these ships are 2" thick armor. Recycle them.

                Save the Iowa.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by DreadnaughtHelper View Post
                  I prefer to see the old ships recycled.
                  There are 4 aircraft carriers in storage right now + the JFK. These ships will be partially dismantled and then taken out for Sinkex. The thing here is, their hulls are HTS and STS steel that is very high grade and still worth a lot of money and it was made here in the USA not the suspicious graded stuff from China. Oh and the hanger decks on these ships are 2" thick armor. Recycle them.

                  Save the Iowa.
                  I'd rather see the ships recycled also. About 75% of the ships I've worked on ended up as a SinkEx target. I think the US knows how accurate and how well the weapons perform.

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                  • #39
                    Oh no, here she comes!
                    "If a man does his best, what else is there?"
                    -General George Patton Jr.

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                    • #40
                      He is a squid,+I've also been on one of his ships during commissioning= Dundonrl does not cause Kitties to die today

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
                        He is a squid,+I've also been on one of his ships during commissioning= Dundonrl does not cause Kitties to die today
                        Parlay?:))
                        Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
                          He is a squid,+I've also been on one of his ships during commissioning= Dundonrl does not cause Kitties to die today
                          The Necro God himself has spoken......pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.:))

                          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWyCCJ6B2WE
                          Last edited by Dreadnought; 29 Dec 09,, 19:37.
                          Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

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