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  • #46
    Originally posted by S-2 View Post
    [B]
    Now, Pakistan's willingness to tolerate our enemies says damn near all that needs saying.
    But S2, they need more time. And money.
    In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

    Leibniz

    Comment


    • #47
      Parihaka Reply

      Your last two posts have pretty much nailed matters. Mucho kudos, stud.:)
      "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
      "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by S-2 View Post
        Your last two posts have pretty much nailed matters. Mucho kudos, stud.:)
        Sometimes I feel like I've been taken over by the undead soul of M21Sniper, or as the board would have it, 'he who shall not be named'. Could be worse.
        In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

        Leibniz

        Comment


        • #49
          Parihaka Reply

          "...the undead soul of M21Sniper, or as the board would have it, 'he who shall not be named'."

          Met him here and regret his departure. A true wraith.
          "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
          "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

          Comment


          • #50
            US troops leave post after militant raid

            Kabul, July 16 (AP): US troops abandoned a remote outpost in eastern Afghanistan where militants killed nine of their comrades earlier this week, officials said today, as Nato launched artillery and helicopter strikes on insurgents in Pakistan.

            The retreat is another indication of the growing strength of the Taliban-led insurgency and the struggle facing foreign and Afghan security forces strung out along the long mountainous border.

            Underlining the precarious situation, Nato said it used artillery and helicopters to attack insurgents inside Pakistan after they fired multiple rockets into the eastern Paktika province yesterday.

            Pakistan military assisted during the operation, officials said.

            Meanwhile, insurgents temporarily seized the village of Wanat in the eastern Afghan province of Nuristan where the US outpost was breached by militants on Sunday, Afghan officials said. It was the deadliest incident for the US military in Afghanistan in three years.

            Omar Sami, spokesman for the Nuristan provincial governor, said American and Afghan soldiers quit the base yesterday afternoon.

            The insurgents drove out the handful of police left behind to defend government offices in the village yesterday, but 50 more officers were deployed today and soon regained control, senior provincial police official Ghoolam Farouq said.

            The militants had retreated into the mountains, and the situation was now peaceful as village elders had negotiated a truce between the two sides, Farouq said. Nato confirmed that the post, which lies amid precipitous mountains close to the Pakistan border, had been vacated while insisting that international and Afghan troops will “retain a strong presence in that area with patrolling and other means”.

            “We can confirm that a temporary outpost which was established in the village of Wanat has been removed,” said Nato spokesman Mark Laity. “We will continue to patrol the village along with the Afghan National Army.” Asked whether the pullout was related to Sunday’s attack, Laity played down any link.

            “Such posts are established and removed when they are not serving a purpose,” he said. Sunday’s assault, in which nine US troops were killed and 15 wounded, underlined how Islamic militants appear to be gaining strength nearly seven years after the ouster of the Taliban.

            The retreat will be considered a victory by the insurgents, and comes after a spate of security setbacks for President Hamid Karzai’s government.The Telegraph - Calcutta (Kolkata) | International | US troops leave post after militant raid

            By abandoning this temporary post just after the militant attack would indeed give a wrong message to the terrorists.

            Even if for good reasons the post has been vacated, it appears as if the US' forces staying power after the attack had diminished or that the US forces had lost the appetite to take on the challenge.

            The post would have surely been sited after taking in all the considerations and so this is a surprising move that will send a wrong message and would only embolden the Taliban.


            "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

            I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

            HAKUNA MATATA

            Comment


            • #51
              Ray Reply

              "...the US forces had lost the appetite to take on the challenge.

              The post would have surely been sited after taking in all the considerations and so this is a surprising move that will send a wrong message and would only embolden the Taliban."


              Brigadier,

              Evidently, ALL the considerations weren't taken. There's been a re-assessment based upon new tactical conditions. At a minimum, there's a platoon that needs re-constituting and there may not be a replacement or, if so, it's not deemed important enough to commit a reserve element. Troop numbers might be factoring in here. It WAS a heavy hit.

              Nonetheless, those "embolden"(ed) taliban won't have to look far. We'll be in the neighborhood, I'm sure.;) We'll see how things shake out.
              "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
              "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

              Comment


              • #52
                [QUOTE]
                Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                The GoP is indeed dysfunctional currently, but it is also a coalition government that is only a few months old. Lets not forget that the Maliki government in Iraq was written off a year or two ago, and is now demanding a timetable of withdrawal from the US.
                The Maliki govt is merely posturing since it knows very well that the day the US quits, the good old Shia Sunni warfare will start and his own life will be in danger, even if he hunkers down in the Green Z.

                As far as the GoP is concerned, how long must it remain as if they have lost their moorings.

                It has to get proactive in its dialogue with its neighbours and at least appear to get things going. It has to show to the world and the its own people that it is a go getting govt and not one that moves as along with the tide. What has it done so far? Nothing worth consideration. Even if it is to jaw jaw with the Tailbuns, it must have something to showcase. Nothing there again and that fool Mehsud is knocking at the gates of Peshawar!!

                The GoP is a coalition government that has to balance competing priorities and agenda's from partners, the electorate and other stakeholders, and arrive at a consensus on how to tackle extremism. Such a consensus cannot be built instantaneously, or in a matter of months, especially when you have a slowing economy and inflation at 21 percent.
                By bumbling along too it will not be able to achieve anything. At least, Musharraf has something to showcase as achievements. And Musharraf is having the last laugh!

                If the hotch potch Indian govt can hold the inflation at 11+%, why can the Pakistan govt not hold it? It indicates that there is no will to achieve anything. I believe Pakistan had posted a greater growth rate than India if PFF posters are to be believed. How come Pakistan has gone into a slump?

                It is not simply a matter of "forsaking Islam" as you put it. The situation in Pakistan is not for the US to resolve, nor can the US resolve it. It must be resolved by Pakistanis through a national dialog and introspection, and that cannot happen if the US is seen to be 'invading' Pakistan.
                Yes, it is for Pakistani to resolve the issue and that is what I was stating. Now, if Mehsud and the brigands are taken as soldiers of Islam and should be supported, as I find some very vociferously acclaiming in the PFF, then how can anyone save Pakistan? If Mehsud and his cohorts are the true face that should engine Pakistan, then abdicate and let him run the show. At least, there will be some direction of movement and one will know where Pakistan stands. Right now, it appears like Janus. Double headed. Or as we say, the right hand does not know what the left hand does!

                First off, that is not the point Parihaka raised. His argument of an "old ideal of a greater Pakistan" being completely wrong is what I was pointing out - it was always a "greater Afghanistan", and the West has jumped on to that bandwagon with Ralph Peters "new map of the ME".
                Of course, there is the concept of Greater Pakistan, but it is in the dubious Chinese style - the deviousness of the CCP has rubbed on to Pakistan. No one is saying it openly, but what does it mean when one want a pro Pakistan govt in Afghanistan and does everything to achieve it, including let the wild people like the Tailbun footloose?

                Your arguments about Pakistan's concerns over Pashtunistan in fact validate my point - those concerns arise out of Afghanistan's historical attempts to stoke secessionist sentiment in Pakistani territory - NWFP and Balochistan, and India's close relationship with those governments.
                Of course India has to be the villain of the piece.

                One can't blame Afghanistan in claiming what it claims. History substantiate their claim and not the work of Mortimer Durand!


                The two claims (McMahon and Durand) are not quite the same - the people of the NWFP voted overwhelmingly in a referendum to join Pakistan, despite the most popular politician of the NWFP at the time opposing the idea of Pakistan.
                Not quite.

                NWFP was a part of British India and so the options were limited. And hence the vote.

                The elected Chief Minister was the brother of Bahadur Khan indicating that the Pashtun still did not trust Paksitan!


                Well too bad for the Pakistani economy and generals - its not like the US cares for the Pakistani economy anyway if it is contemplating unilateral incursions.
                I would not know.


                Like I said, there is plenty for NATO to fix in Afghanistan first.
                Like the Taliban. But if Pakistan gives the carte blanche, it does make the situation a trifle queer to handle!


                I am not advocating that we not act in unison, but that unilateral US strikes of magnitude that provides tangible results area flawed strategy for long term stability in the region. Pakistan's problems have to be solved by Pakistan.
                If Pakistan puss.yfoots, someone has to take the initiative. Can't have people dying like flies, can we?


                Ray,

                The majority of our senior membership at PFF is Pashtun, and a large part of our regular membership as well. Many of them live in the NWFP, and have family scattered around various parts of FATA as well.
                Indeed with that yellow journalist leading the flock, apart from some disguised and some open Salafis! ;)

                The picture that emerges from interactions with them and listening to their views about the situation is not one of "separatism".
                Indeed. If one reads in between the lines, they are all for Mehsud and that is not separation but destruction of Pakistan!!

                The above is of course anecdotal evidence.
                No. It is unmitigated Grimms!



                KAGK's successor party is now an avid defender of the federation - their manifesto talks of autonomy for the provinces within the federation. So the largest and most popular Pashtun nationalist party now talks of remaining part of the Pakistani Federation - some secessionist movement that!
                Read their Manifesto?

                Of two of the largest nationalist parties in Sindh, one changed its manifesto, late last year, to demand greater autonomy within the federation, rather than secession, the other rarely utters a peep, now and then perhaps, and of course, guess which party commands the most popularity in Sindh, and has for a long time now?

                The pro-federation PPP of course!
                To be watched and seen.

                Actions speak for themselves, not Manifestos!

                The only province where your doomsday analysis (wouldn't expect anything else from an Indian ;)) is correct is in Balochistan, and even there the BLA is currently making more enemies within the Baloch, and forcing the current Baloch nationalist leadership to distance itself from them.

                Hostility still remains, but at least there is an acknowledgment of the wrongs done Balochistan in the past by this government, and hopefully the provincial autonomy amendments, that are a part of the judicial package currently in limbo, will be passed to remove most of these tensions.
                I thought they are now a part of India as per your folks! :))


                Is everything hunky dory? No, there is tension, and so long as the center retains the amount of control it does currently, there will always be room for complaint that the "establishment" is the source of all ills, hence the urgent need to pass the judicial package and delete the "Concurrent List" (that determines which subjects of governance remain with the Center).
                We will cross the bridge when it comes! ;)

                By the way, you really must peruse some literature that is more objective on Pakistan, instead of this "hate pakistan" stuff you seem to be addicted to.
                I don't hate Pakistan. Why should I? What does worry me is that the instability in Pakistan will have its effect on India. I am possibly one of the few who understands the issue and that is why in PFF I have taken on your Doomsday Prophets like Xylophone!


                "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

                I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

                HAKUNA MATATA

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by S-2 View Post
                  "...the US forces had lost the appetite to take on the challenge.

                  The post would have surely been sited after taking in all the considerations and so this is a surprising move that will send a wrong message and would only embolden the Taliban."


                  Brigadier,

                  Evidently, ALL the considerations weren't taken. There's been a re-assessment based upon new tactical conditions. At a minimum, there's a platoon that needs re-constituting and there may not be a replacement or, if so, it's not deemed important enough to commit a reserve element. Troop numbers might be factoring in here. It WAS a heavy hit.

                  Nonetheless, those "embolden"(ed) taliban won't have to look far. We'll be in the neighborhood, I'm sure.;) We'll see how things shake out.
                  If I may suggest in these areas where insurgents and terrorists operate, there can be no complacency. It is more of a psychological battle than the actual battle.


                  "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

                  I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

                  HAKUNA MATATA

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Ray Reply

                    Brigadier,

                    "If I may suggest in these areas where insurgents and terrorists operate, there can be no complacency."

                    I don't know how much of the last attack which could have been avoided. I doubt there's a bunch of complacency about- not even then. We held our ground, outnumbered badly and tactically surprised.

                    Sh!t happens, as you know Brigadier. It's what you do afterward that matters.
                    "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                    "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by S-2 View Post
                      Brigadier,

                      "If I may suggest in these areas where insurgents and terrorists operate, there can be no complacency."

                      I don't know how much of the last attack which could have been avoided. I doubt there's a bunch of complacency about- not even then. We held our ground, outnumbered badly and tactically surprised.

                      Sh!t happens, as you know Brigadier. It's what you do afterward that matters.
                      If you recall, I told you that it would take a huge amount of troops if Afghanistan is to be tamed.

                      Isolated posts are ready for the picking. They should be in a grid so that rft is readily available something like the old times of US history when the Cavalry came to the rescue of Posts.


                      "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

                      I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

                      HAKUNA MATATA

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Ray Reply

                        Brigadier,

                        "They should be in a grid so that rft is readily available something like the old times of US history when the Cavalry came to the rescue of Posts."

                        I'm sure that was the case, which is why those guys still held the high ground when it was all said and done.

                        "Isolated posts are ready for the picking."

                        A generalization but, evidently, case-by-case determines the final outcome. These guys were sufficiently ready to repel all boarders and did so. Let's not forget, abandoned or not, we held the ground and the died trying to take it and broke contact.

                        We need to look at the window of vulnerability that exists as these guys are getting tied in and built up. Is it an unavoidable risk given our stretched assets?
                        "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                        "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
                          I'm not chest thumping at all, merely clearly and analytically pointing out that the west has lost interest in 'American atrocities' stories. Which means that the LIBERAL west has lost interest. Which means that the previous brakes to more determined actions by the US has gone. Even their great white (or if you'll forgive me, black) hope keeps reiterating he will put American boots on Pakistani soil regardless of what the Pakistani government says.

                          And nothing changes the fact that the innermost intricacies of Pakistani tribal allegiances and political leanings mean no more to the coalition forces amassing on your western border than does my great grandmothers whakapapa.They haven't got it for the simple reason that company sized Taliban units are attacking coalition forces and then returning to Pakistan. Time is up. Pakistan and all her citizens are going to have to decide about all that rhetoric of not a single US boot on Pakistan soil because, well, I rather suspect it's going to happen.
                          Couch it whatever PC terms you want, the intent is the same. The "little barbarism" and apathy view is one that is held by the Pashtun and Pakistanis anyway, so its not breaking news in this part of the world. At last now there isn't any pretense of "care and sympathy".

                          Barring genocide however, its unlikely to get you very far - the only reason the US has been able to get a foothold in Iraq right now is because the barbarity of AQ far exceeded anything else, and compared to them teh Americans were great. Don't expect much different attempting it in Afghanistan and FATA.

                          As for not caring about cultural dynamics, I never believed the US would anyway - though S-2 was quite proud of the effort put into it by people like Kilcullen (or something).

                          Nuristani officials say that the populace in Weygal has sided with the Taliban since a spate of recent bombing raids killed civilians. On July 4th a bomb attack in the area allegedly killed 17 civilians, including several Afghan medical staff. Two days later another raid hit a party on its way to a wedding in Nangahar province, killing 47 guests including the bride....

                          ... A delegation of 150 tribal elders from the Weygal area camped out in Kabul for several weeks waiting to make a formal protest to the Afghan president, Hamid Karzai. According to a local member of parliament, they left in disgust when the meeting was repeatedly postponed. The base was attacked two days later.
                          Afghanistan | Dawn raid | Economist.com
                          Sure. And you be sure to let me know when Pakistan stops channeling it and selling it on the open market. You are after all the purchasers and financiers of said opium trade.
                          Let me know when you stop channeling the guns and explosives into Afghanistan.
                          Let me know when you've arrested those supplying the Talibunnies with those guns and explosives.
                          Let me know when you've arrested all the 'Pakistanis' who are currently conducting cross border raids into Afghanistan to attack NATO et al troops and make reconstruction impossible.
                          Let me know when you've arrested and put on trial all those responsible for proliferating WMD technology.
                          Let me know when you've arrested those who've been running terrorist training schools for the British bombers.
                          Let me know when you've arrested the leaders and followers of the Taliban and AQ currently harbored within Pakistan:
                          until then save the sarcasm for someone who cares.
                          Articles posted in your own forum indicate who is supplying the Taliban, and who is running the drug trade, all with a wink and and a nod from your blue eyed boys in kabul.

                          Cut down the poppy crop and there won't be any left for the Pakistanis or Russians to sell will there. Set up a few more of your wind farms to lower the income from the drug trade from the half of Afghan National income it is currently.

                          Robert Gates is on record for having accused the Iranians of supplying weapons to Afghanistan, and Pakistani SF"s routinely interdict weapons and explosives coming into Balochistan from the Afghan side, the 'Klashnikov's for Heroin article lays out very clearly where your weapons and explosives business is thriving.

                          That said, I am not denying that drug trafficking does not occur in pakistani territory either, but the source of the trade in the North, South and East remains the poppy crop, which NATO has failed miserably to end or substitute.

                          The Taliban earned $US200 million ($A208 million) to $US400 million last year from poppy growers and drug traffickers in areas under its control, said Antonio Maria Costa, executive director of the United Nations Office of Drugs and Crime
                          Afghanistan drug trade hits $4 billion a year | theage.com.au
                          But of course all of this requires acknowledging you have a problem in Afghanistan in the first place, instead of the defelction and blame game played out here.

                          This is territory under your control, fix it before shifting blame onto others.

                          The difference is the 'Mayor of Kabul' has not the slightest ability to take Pakistan soil or threaten Pakistan in any way: Pakistan has on the other hand been doing that to Afghanistan since the Soviet invasion. Sorry, 'me victim, him bad guy' doesn't wash. You've had thirty years of doing whatever the **** you like.
                          Hogwash, it doesn't take much to fund and arm a violent seperatist group, not with all weapons being smuggled into Afghanistan from the South and the North - the attempts were made before, the intent still exists, and now so do the resources.

                          The Afghans were doing that to themselves, with the support of countries not just limited to Pakistan.

                          Can't be any more destabilised than it is already.
                          Can't do any less to interfere with Pakistans handling of the problem than we are already.
                          The NWFP, not just FATA are now effectively out of Pakistan's control. You're about to lose Peshawar.
                          NATO thus far hasn't crossed the border but has in fact left the problem to Pakistan, as Pakistan has demanded.
                          End result is that the Taliban can now mount conventional offensives across the border with no hindrance from the PA, and some indicators of assistance from the P.A.
                          Clean cold analysis from an outside observer: times up. Pick your side and play it for all it's worth.
                          Oh please - The wreck of a state to the West of Pakistan and the sectarian chaos witnessed in Iraq quite clearly show how bad the situation can get, which it is nowhere close to at this point.

                          Destabilization from possible bad US policy is a very real threat, that it has not taken those steps yet is to be commended, and should continue to not do so in the future. As to the braggadocio about "time is up", nothing is going to happen in terms of US intervention before the end of this year, that the GoP or military do not clear.

                          A restart of the more frequent Predator attacks with Pakistani approval that we saw before the civilian adminsitration took over, perhaps - but US intervention of the magnitude required to bring about any sort of major change is not happening any time soon.

                          When Obama takes charge, perhaps, but there can be a deep divide between election time politics, and policy after getting into power -we'll have to see how the latter works out.
                          But S2, they need more time. And money.
                          Looks like we are getting both.;)
                          Last edited by Agnostic Muslim; 17 Jul 08,, 20:49.
                          Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                          https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Ray View Post

                            The Maliki govt is merely posturing since it knows very well that the day the US quits, the good old Shia Sunni warfare will start and his own life will be in danger, even if he hunkers down in the Green Z.

                            As far as the GoP is concerned, how long must it remain as if they have lost their moorings.

                            It has to get proactive in its dialogue with its neighbours and at least appear to get things going. It has to show to the world and the its own people that it is a go getting govt and not one that moves as along with the tide. What has it done so far? Nothing worth consideration. Even if it is to jaw jaw with the Tailbuns, it must have something to showcase. Nothing there again and that fool Mehsud is knocking at the gates of Peshawar!!

                            By bumbling along too it will not be able to achieve anything. At least, Musharraf has something to showcase as achievements. And Musharraf is having the last laugh!

                            If the hotch potch Indian govt can hold the inflation at 11+%, why can the Pakistan govt not hold it? It indicates that there is no will to achieve anything. I believe Pakistan had posted a greater growth rate than India if PFF posters are to be believed. How come Pakistan has gone into a slump?

                            Yes, it is for Pakistani to resolve the issue and that is what I was stating. Now, if Mehsud and the brigands are taken as soldiers of Islam and should be supported, as I find some very vociferously acclaiming in the PFF, then how can anyone save Pakistan? If Mehsud and his cohorts are the true face that should engine Pakistan, then abdicate and let him run the show. At least, there will be some direction of movement and one will know where Pakistan stands. Right now, it appears like Janus. Double headed. Or as we say, the right hand does not know what the left hand does!
                            The point being that coalition governments take time to arrive at any sort of consensus. Complaining about "how long" wrt the Pakistani Government is really inexplicable, since they have been there barely six months.

                            Economic issues were exacerbated due to the violence of last year and the global spike in commodities - they are not of this governments making nor will they be resolved in a matter of months.

                            Public consensus is not achieved instantaneously, and it will not be achieved if people are more pissed off about US intervention in FATA, instead of focusing on the growing threat of extremism at home.
                            Of course, there is the concept of Greater Pakistan, but it is in the dubious Chinese style - the deviousness of the CCP has rubbed on to Pakistan. No one is saying it openly, but what does it mean when one want a pro Pakistan govt in Afghanistan and does everything to achieve it, including let the wild people like the Tailbun footloose?
                            Very nice Ray, when no overt evidence, then we resort to "deviousness" - surprised you didn't throw in a word about takiyyah...
                            Of course India has to be the villain of the piece.

                            One can't blame Afghanistan in claiming what it claims. History substantiate their claim and not the work of Mortimer Durand!
                            I am merely pointing out that Afghanistan's relationship with India made it a larger concern, given the hostility between India and Pakistan, not that India is the villain of the piece.

                            Not quite.

                            NWFP was a part of British India and so the options were limited. And hence the vote.

                            The elected Chief Minister was the brother of Bahadur Khan indicating that the Pashtun still did not trust Paksitan!
                            You didn't read the article then I take, since it explains teh dynamics behind the remove of KAJK in great detail.

                            KAJK was elected before the referendum and before the creation of Pakistan - the later referendum, which KAGK boycotted, and the two brothers never expected would go Pakistan's way, in fact went heavily in Pakistan's favor.

                            Like the Taliban. But if Pakistan gives the carte blanche, it does make the situation a trifle queer to handle!

                            If Pakistan puss.yfoots, someone has to take the initiative. Can't have people dying like flies, can we?
                            I am not saying Pakistan does not have anything to do - FATA, PATA and the nearby settled areas are becoming quite lawless - but that some here blaming all of NATO's ills on Pakistan is ludicrous given the host of problems they have not addressed in Afghanistan yet.

                            Like I said earlier, change for the sake of change is not always progress. Major US intervention in FATA will likely only destabilize Pakistan further, and therfore is not a positive change. Keeping up the pressure on the new government while pressurizing Nawaz through the Saudis to compromise and rejoin the government is the best option.

                            Indeed with that yellow journalist leading the flock, apart from some disguised and some open Salafis! ;)

                            Indeed. If one reads in between the lines, they are all for Mehsud and that is not separation but destruction of Pakistan!!

                            No. It is unmitigated Grimms!
                            You are not reading between the lines then (though you are correct about some) - the issue remains one of ethnicity and/or faith over the WoT, specifically the US WoT.

                            Not many of them object to the PA militarily restoring peace (though not in the manner of the US, with heavy collateral damage), it is when you bring in the US that opinions become more radical.

                            Read their Manifesto?

                            To be watched and seen.

                            Actions speak for themselves, not Manifestos!

                            I thought they are now a part of India as per your folks! :))

                            We will cross the bridge when it comes! ;)
                            I have read their manifesto, in fact I was the first person to post it on PFF because I wanted to put to rest the idea of "separatist movement', that some were insisting upon, by pointing out that the largest and most popular Pashtun nationalist party now spoke of autonomy within the federation.

                            Separate state not in ANP manifesto: Asfandyar -DAWN - National; 21 December, 2004

                            I don't hate Pakistan. Why should I? What does worry me is that the instability in Pakistan will have its effect on India. I am possibly one of the few who understands the issue and that is why in PFF I have taken on your Doomsday Prophets like Xylophone!
                            I don't think you hate Pakistan - I think you are sincere in your expressions of peace between India and Pakistan. However, your view point is one that comes across as skewed heavily by a lot of "anti-pakistan" material.

                            Hence my remark that you should try reading some "other stuff".:)
                            Last edited by Agnostic Muslim; 17 Jul 08,, 20:47.
                            Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                            https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by S-2 View Post
                              Brigadier,

                              "They should be in a grid so that rft is readily available something like the old times of US history when the Cavalry came to the rescue of Posts."

                              I'm sure that was the case, which is why those guys still held the high ground when it was all said and done.

                              "Isolated posts are ready for the picking."

                              A generalization but, evidently, case-by-case determines the final outcome. These guys were sufficiently ready to repel all boarders and did so. Let's not forget, abandoned or not, we held the ground and the died trying to take it and broke contact.

                              We need to look at the window of vulnerability that exists as these guys are getting tied in and built up. Is it an unavoidable risk given our stretched assets?
                              Evidently those guys were caught by surprise while trying to set up an observation outpost:

                              Military looking at intelligence before deadly Afghan clash

                              * Army unit trying to set up observation post when attacked
                              * Nine soldiers killed Sunday in fight with about 200 Taliban insurgents
                              * Pentagon begins formal probe of battle
                              * British say troops kill Taliban leaders


                              WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A formal investigation into an attack on a U.S. Army unit by about 200 Taliban insurgents will examine whether the Army had intelligence about a possible assault and whether the troops had access to it.

                              The fact-finding mission was launched Thursday, several military officials told CNN, after nine American soldiers were killed in Sunday's assault in Afghanistan.

                              When the attack occurred, the U.S. and Afghan soldiers were scouting for a location in the remote area to set up a coalition observation point. The Taliban never breached the main coalition base near the village of Wanat in Kunar province, which borders Pakistan.

                              It was the deadliest attack on U.S. troops in Afghanistan in three years, underscoring how the conflict is escalating.

                              Since May, the deaths of U.S. and allied troops have far outpaced the toll in Iraq. On Thursday, the toll in Afghanistan was 21 compared to six in Iraq. The International Security Assistance Force did not provide the nationality of a soldier who died in Afghanistan on Thursday. See casualty figures for Afghanistan, Iraq »

                              U.S. military officials are searching for ways to send more troops to Afghanistan in response to urgent requests from commanders there, given the increase in violence. VideoWatch how U.S. trying to boost Afghan force »

                              A senior U.S. Army official says "all options are on the table," including the possibility of diverting a combat brigade of up to 3,000 troops to Afghanistan later this year. Those troops are now scheduled to go to Iraq.

                              The commanders are asking for troops as soon as possible. Several officials say it's most likely that the fastest option would be to send a small number of "enabler" troops such as security forces, helicopter units, and surveillance aircraft. There is a Marine Corps unit in the region on standby for emergencies that could be sent, officials said.

                              In Afghanistan on Thursday, local security forces and coalition soldiers in western Afghanistan killed several insurgents in what the NATO command called a "successful operation against high-priority Taliban targets."

                              The operation took place in the Shindand district of Herat province. Two Taliban leaders, Haji Dawlat Khan and Haji Nasrullah Khan, and "significant number of other insurgents" were killed, according to a statement from NATO's International Security Assistance Force.

                              There was no evidence of civilian casualties or accidental damage in the operation, in which a "number of men were discovered handcuffed and imprisoned in appalling conditions in one of the insurgent compounds."

                              One of the toughest fronts in the war has been the southern province of Helmand.

                              In Helmand province in southern Afghanistan, the British Defense Ministry said British troops killed a senior Taliban leader.

                              Mullah Bismullah Akhund was killed Saturday in the Now Zad district of Helmand, long a Taliban bastion.

                              The Defense Ministry, in a statement on Wednesday, called Bismullah "a senior key facilitator and logistician responsible for the northern Helmand region." The ministry says his death will disrupt the Taliban's leadership structure and hamper the group's ability to conduct attacks.

                              "He is believed to have commanded numerous fighters and was identified by Task Force Helmand as a key player in the insurgency, and criminality, before the strike," according to ISAF.

                              British troops, which are part of the assistance force, announced the killing on Thursday. Saturday's operation occurred 15 days after British troops killed another senior Taliban militant, Sadiqullah, in an Apache missile strike.

                              "Bismullah was closely associated with local Taliban leader Mullah Rahim, whose brother was also killed during this operation," ISAF said.

                              The Defense Ministry said that "combined with the elimination of Sadiqullah, this is the most significant blow struck against the Taliban logistics and facilitation chain in northern Helmand this year."

                              The U.S.-led coalition said it also is investigating an airstrike in western Afghanistan's Farah province. Launched after a coalition convoy was attacked Tuesday, it struck a house and killed eight civilians.

                              CNN's Barbara Starr and Jamie McIntyre contributed to this report.



                              Find this article at:
                              Military looking at intelligence before deadly Afghan clash - CNN.com

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                                Couch it whatever PC terms you want, the intent is the same. The "little barbarism" and apathy view is one that is held by the Pashtun and Pakistanis anyway, so its not breaking news in this part of the world. At last now there isn't any pretense of "care and sympathy".

                                Barring genocide however, its unlikely to get you very far - the only reason the US has been able to get a foothold in Iraq right now is because the barbarity of AQ far exceeded anything else, and compared to them teh Americans were great. Don't expect much different attempting it in Afghanistan and FATA.
                                Um, I don't know what planet you've been on lately but the US doesn't 'have a foothold' in Iraq, it owns it. This myth of the noble Arab/Persian warrior driving off the infidel has been shown to be bullshyt no less than three times in the last twenty years. Iraq, Iraq 2 and Afghanistan. With a force of roughly 50,000, the ISAF is taking and holding ground, and as your threads at Pak.Def. are now lamenting is amassing small but effective numbers on the borders of Pakistan itself.
                                Meanwhile the PA numbers 620,000 active duty soldiers and has thus far lost roughly a third of your country since the Afghan invasion and subsequent flight of the Taliban into the NWFP.
                                As you refer to, the barbarity of AQ in Iraq was extreme, what you are mistaking though was that it at any time was directly aimed at the Americans: it was not.
                                American casualties were fractional compared to civilian casualties and AQ and the various factions nearly always targeted those civilians. The only way the US forces were stretched was in protecting the civilians from the barbarity of AQI and affiliates. You'll also note the few times the US took direct action to pacify an area by overwhelming force such as Falujah, they did so with total efficiency, a lesson not lost on their enemies.
                                So, genocide? Preventing the on-going one is more likely. One that the politicians and armed forces in Pakistan are tacitly assisting in Afghanistan, and allowing in the NWFP.
                                Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                                As for not caring about cultural dynamics, I never believed the US would anyway - though S-2 was quite proud of the effort put into it by people like Kilcullen (or something).
                                Cultural dynamics don't really count when the Taliban shoot the traditional tribal leaders and replace them with their own stooges now do they? Cultural dynamics are important when you wish to control a country, but mean diddly-squat when you invade.


                                Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                                Articles posted in your own forum indicate who is supplying the Taliban, and who is running the drug trade, all with a wink and and a nod from your blue eyed boys in kabul.
                                Oh please
                                The Golden Route: opium's journey from Afghanistan into Pakistan and then into eastern Iran
                                'Pakistan using drug trafficking to finance J&K ultras'
                                UNODC Country Office, Pakistan - Country Profile
                                http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/1994...terror-pak.htm
                                If you want a more detailed analysis, ask Asim about his Dubai millionaire drinking buddies.

                                Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                                Cut down the poppy crop and there won't be any left for the Pakistanis or Russians to sell will there. Set up a few more of your wind farms to lower the income from the drug trade from the half of Afghan National income it is currently.
                                Yep, let the farmers starve and and totally alienate them. This is the cultural dynamics you want us to adhere to?

                                Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                                Robert Gates is on record for having accused the Iranians of supplying
                                But of course all of this requires acknowledging you have a problem in Afghanistan in the first place, instead of the defelction and blame game played out here.
                                Of course we acknowledge we have a problem in Afghanistan, what you are failing to acknowledge is that we have a problem in Pakistan.

                                Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post

                                This is territory under your control, fix it before shifting blame onto others.
                                That's what we're doing: our other problem is you aren't fixing the problems in what you claim to be your territory.

                                Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                                Hogwash, it doesn't take much to fund and arm a violent seperatist group, not with all weapons being smuggled into Afghanistan from the South and the North - the attempts were made before, the intent still exists, and now so do the resources.
                                Right. Pakistan through its agency the ISI helps install the Taliban in Afghanistan. When was the last time Afghanistan installed a repressive puppet regime in Pakistan again?

                                Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                                Oh please - The wreck of a state to the West of Pakistan and the sectarian chaos witnessed in Iraq quite clearly show how bad the situation can get, which it is nowhere close to at this point.
                                Sorry, you mistake me, perhaps deliberately. I'm not comparing the state of the civilians in the NWFP with those in Afghanistan or Iraq; I'm comparing the number, organisation and threat level of the terrorists harboured within it. In fact it is a territory that is controlled by terrorists, far more so than any area of Iraq or Afghanistan since the Taliban were driven out.
                                I really don't know why Pakistan is arguing as though it still has some say in the matter. The territories have passed out of it's control, I guess to keep the welfare flowing they've somehow got to pretend they're still a player.
                                Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                                As to the braggadocio about "time is up", nothing is going to happen in terms of US intervention before the end of this year, that the GoP or military do not clear.
                                Gee. Six months. That's the extent of your strategic thinking. Good luck with that.
                                Last edited by Parihaka; 18 Jul 08,, 01:16.
                                In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                                Leibniz

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