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My Lai Massacre

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  • #16
    You've got to do better than that. I've got better pictures in my personal photo album.
    Reddite igitur quae sunt Caesaris Caesari et quae sunt Dei Deo
    (Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's and unto God the things which are God's)

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    • #17
      It was some time since i read about this.

      Is it true that the U.S. paid mercenaries in to hunt down commie sympathizersn in South Vietnam?

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Shey Tapani View Post
        It was some time since i read about this.

        Is it true that the U.S. paid mercenaries in to hunt down commie sympathizersn in South Vietnam?
        This is not a simple issue. A number of US Allies contributed troops to the Vietnam War. Apart from the Australian & New Zealand contingents, units from Thailand, The Phillippines & the RoK were all paid for by the US government (over 350,000 in all). Some have referred to these as 'mercenary' forces, thought they direct any negaitve connotations toward the home governments involved, not the soldiers themselves, who were simply serving their countries (as an aside, one of those Thai soldiers, a muslim who was eventually promoted to general, led the 2006 coup). I don't thin this was what you were after, however.

        There were other forces on the side of the South that might be called 'mercenaries'. The French had a history of paying Vietnamese to serve as soldiers. During the First Indochina war they especially used the 'hill tribes' (not ethnically Vietnamese) along with Cambodians & Lao 'hill tribes' (also not Lao) against the communist forces. Sometimes they used part of the Lao opium harvest to pay the bills.

        The Americans continued this tradition in Vietnam, Laos & Cambodia. Some of these men were undoubtedly just in it for pay. Many, however, saw the French & Americans as a means to keep themselves independent from either the ethnic Vietnamese/Communists. It is hard to know if they realized that their erstwhile allies would eventually have sold them out to a non-communist Vietnamese government, but it wasn't as if they had an easy set of choices. It was copnvenient for the communist side to dismiss all such people as 'mercenaries' - it took away their credibility. Many of these troops only fought in their local regions - where the Vietcong & PAVN feared & hated them. Other units fought in various places - they more closely resembled mercenaries.

        There were also other small units of local Vietnamese, ethnic Chinese, hill tribes & perhaps even Phillipinos, Thais, Taiwanese & Koreans etc. (not sure on these) who were under CIA & then Special Forces command who were used for commando missions & other such operations. There weren't very many of these. They might more closely meet the definition of 'mercenary'.

        Sorry that wasn't a simple answer, but the definitions are not simple & the information is not always easy to find.
        sigpic

        Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
          This is not a simple issue. A number of US Allies contributed troops to the Vietnam War. Apart from the Australian & New Zealand contingents, units from Thailand, The Phillippines & the RoK were all paid for by the US government (over 350,000 in all). Some have referred to these as 'mercenary' forces, thought they direct any negaitve connotations toward the home governments involved, not the soldiers themselves, who were simply serving their countries (as an aside, one of those Thai soldiers, a muslim who was eventually promoted to general, led the 2006 coup). I don't thin this was what you were after, however.

          There were other forces on the side of the South that might be called 'mercenaries'. The French had a history of paying Vietnamese to serve as soldiers. During the First Indochina war they especially used the 'hill tribes' (not ethnically Vietnamese) along with Cambodians & Lao 'hill tribes' (also not Lao) against the communist forces. Sometimes they used part of the Lao opium harvest to pay the bills.

          The Americans continued this tradition in Vietnam, Laos & Cambodia. Some of these men were undoubtedly just in it for pay. Many, however, saw the French & Americans as a means to keep themselves independent from either the ethnic Vietnamese/Communists. It is hard to know if they realized that their erstwhile allies would eventually have sold them out to a non-communist Vietnamese government, but it wasn't as if they had an easy set of choices. It was copnvenient for the communist side to dismiss all such people as 'mercenaries' - it took away their credibility. Many of these troops only fought in their local regions - where the Vietcong & PAVN feared & hated them. Other units fought in various places - they more closely resembled mercenaries.

          There were also other small units of local Vietnamese, ethnic Chinese, hill tribes & perhaps even Phillipinos, Thais, Taiwanese & Koreans etc. (not sure on these) who were under CIA & then Special Forces command who were used for commando missions & other such operations. There weren't very many of these. They might more closely meet the definition of 'mercenary'.

          Sorry that wasn't a simple answer, but the definitions are not simple & the information is not always easy to find.
          I don't know what Shey Tapani talked about but from Communist Vietnam side, they don't call tribal fighters "mercenary" but "phỉ" in Vietnamese which means "insurgent" in English. "Mercenary" was used to call US allies' troops from RoK, Thailand, Australia. In the first Indochina War, France ally troops from North Africa were also called "mercenary" by Viet Minh.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by VietPhuong View Post
            I don't know what Shey Tapani talked about but from Communist Vietnam side, they don't call tribal fighters "mercenary" but "phỉ" in Vietnamese which means "insurgent" in English. "Mercenary" was used to call US allies' troops from RoK, Thailand, Australia. In the first Indochina War, France ally troops from North Africa were also called "mercenary" by Viet Minh.
            I think definitions are a problem here Vietphuong. What one person might call a mercenary another might call a regular soldier. The lines are often unclear & that was the case in Vietnam.

            Generally mercenaries exist outside 'regular' military structures. They tend not to be part of the structure of national armed forces or security forces. They are often hired in to perform specific missions or specific tasks. The Australians, New Zealanders, Thais, Koreans & Phillipinos who fought on the American side were all part of their nation's established armed forces. Indeed, in the case of some of the Australians (and I suspect the Koreans) they were conscripted. The same was true for the Nth Africans in the French Army & the foreigners in the Foreign Legion. I see all of these forces as the equivalent of the several hundred thousand Chinese troops who served in the Nth during the war.

            Because soldiers from the 'hill tribes' often existed outside regular military structures they more easily fit the 'mercenary' label, though perhaps not always fairly. There were also irregular commando units under the supervision of US forces where pay for regulars was the same as ARVN officer pay. Some people view the financial incentive here as 'mercenary'.

            As I said, none of the definitions here are simple or easy.
            sigpic

            Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Bigfella View Post

              There were also other small units of local Vietnamese, ethnic Chinese, hill tribes & perhaps even Phillipinos, Thais, Taiwanese & Koreans etc. (not sure on these) who were under CIA & then Special Forces command who were used for commando missions & other such operations. There weren't very many of these. They might more closely meet the definition of 'mercenary'.
              I have heard rumors about this too but from civilian owned and edited military magazines. Supposedly small groups of paratroops went over there to get blooded, for educational purposes.
              All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
              -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Triple C View Post
                I have heard rumors about this too but from civilian owned and edited military magazines. Supposedly small groups of paratroops went over there to get blooded, for educational purposes.
                Vietnam was so big, messy & took so long that there are all sorts of nasty little corners that have not been much explored. I know from conversations with people involved that there were small numbers of serving & ex-British & Australian personnel with experience in Malaya running little ops for the CIA & RVN government in the late 50s & early 60s. Also did some training & advising etc. I suspect that some of these guys might be classified 'mercenaries', as might some of the guys they commanded.
                sigpic

                Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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                • #23
                  Finally a public apology after 40 years. This most infamous war massacre of civlians in Vietnam still haunts.

                  Former US soldier apologises for Vietnam massacre
                  16 hrs ago [AFP] WASHINGTON — After more than 40 years, the former US army officer found guilty of organizing mass killings in the Vietnamese community of My Lai during the war has made a public apology.

                  "There is not a day that goes by that I do not feel remorse for what happened that day in My Lai," former lieutenant William Calley told members of the Kiwanis Club of Greater Columbus, Georgia. "I feel remorse for the Vietnamese who were killed, for their families, for the American soldiers involved and their families. I am very sorry." ....

                  The massacre did not become public knowledge until November 1969, when independent investigative journalist Seymour Hersh broke the story after extensive conversations with Calley.

                  The lieutenant, the only American tried in connection with the massacre, was convicted and sentenced by a court-martial to life imprisonment.

                  But he was freed after three years under house arrest when then-US President Richard Nixon intervened.

                  Although his presentation at the Kiwanis Club was brief, Calley took a few questions. ....
                  Last edited by Merlin; 23 Aug 09,, 03:48.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Merlin View Post
                    Finally a public apology after 40 years. This most infamous war massacre in Vietnam still haunts.

                    Former US soldier apologises for Vietnam massacre

                    I saw this posted on another website & posed the obvious question - is he sorry enough to serve out the life sentence he was given? I'm guessing not.
                    sigpic

                    Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
                      I saw this posted on another website & posed the obvious question - is he sorry enough to serve out the life sentence he was given? I'm guessing not.
                      I read his memoirs, a few years ago, and he blamed Society and the Army system for making him an officer! so, he was shiftiing blame

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by TTL View Post
                        I was just reading about My Lai in wikipedia and learned that although 350 - 500 civilians were killed by U.S. marines only a single officer was convicted at the court martial. He was senteced to life and served only 3.5 years at house arrest.

                        What kind of justice is this? What I understand from the article is that army acknowledges civilians were killed so how can they justify 350 unaccounted murder case?
                        IMHO.......

                        the kind of "justice" where those responsible escape and the lowly ones are left holding the bag.

                        The world might remember Calley but not Medina. I'm not saying that Calley was innocent and there are probably a few terms I might use about him.....but for all the blame that history might put on him, his CO should have gotten a bigger share.

                        Of course, it's been about 12 years of so since I received a VERY intense briefing on My Lai and a lot of my opinions on the blame come from a few career officers of that period.....so my opinion may be biased to a degree.

                        But, I'm likely to agree with Calley on one thing....he probably should not have been an officer.

                        IMHO
                        ___________________________
                        ("When I took her she was...promise itself. So clever, so vibrant, so...full of life force. And you left her there, at the mercy of a man like me. You ruined her. For what? To get to me? She is worth fifty of me."--Renard
                        "For once, I agree with you."--M, (w,stte), "The World is Not Enough")

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                        • #27
                          Atrocities happen in all conflicts, some more then others but they do happen from all sides.

                          To give you an idea of how bad this can get I invite you to check this link and read. You will be surprised at how cruel man can be when at war.
                          Massacres and Atrocities of WWII in Western Europe
                          Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

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