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  • #46
    Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
    Delta,

    I am sorry but Alexander and Julius Caesar were like Nadir Shah. They invaded and plundered and even allowed their troops to do some rape and looting. How do you explain how Caesar brought large number of Gallic slaves? Alexander burning down Tyre and killing all of the inhabitants once Tyre was taken?
    BM,
    No, that can not be said. If you are hinting at stray cases of rape I would agree. Even modern day armies experience such stray cases. There have been even allegations on Indian soldiers involved in such stray cases in Kashmir. But that can not be a line of reasoning for the whole army. In case of Nadir Shah, just hit the search button and you will find piles of his barbaric exploits. Caesar and Alexander belong to an age and time where battles were wholesomely bloody, the question is about the personalities involved and their individual characters.

    By the way, Nadir Shah's military exploits should be studied on the same level as Alexander and Julius Caesar, but they are not because he is not a westerner.
    BM,
    Why do you think so? Answer me one thing. Can Ashok and Nadir be equated? No they can not, inspite of the fact that even Ashok has a lot of blood on his hands. Its not a matter of who killed how many. It is a question about who has contributed what and how much to civilization and mankind through his military exploits. Ashok is the king who is responsible for the spread of Buddhisim and even Indian spirituality through the same to a third of mankind. He is the symbol of our very indentity through his Lion Capitol. The Bamian Buddha, Saarnath, Nalanda, Taxila etc are all entwined with him and the Mauryans. Alexandar through his military exploits had the entire ME and Asia under his influence and that age is termed as the Hellenic Age, together with widespread influence of Greek Art/Culture/Literature/Medicine/Military etc etc. Same applies for Julius Caesar and the spread of Roman culture/governance etc etc. Now compare this with what Nadir Shah has contributed through his military exploits. Ancient Rulers waged war, captured land, enslaved people, killed people. All have done that. Greatness of the rulers come into play with what they or their empire have contributed towards progression of civilization and mankind. Nadir Shah and likes are dud. So once again, One can not equate bandits like Changez Khan, Nadir Shah, Mohammad Ghauri, Taimur Lang, irrespective of their warfighting skills with say, Sher Shah Suri, Ashok, Chandragupt, Guptas, Akbar, Humayun, Quing and to that effect Alexandar, Caesar and Napoleon.
    Last edited by Deltacamelately; 13 Aug 08,, 13:02.
    sigpicAnd on the sixth day, God created the Field Artillery...

    Comment


    • #47
      What are the options with Iran, are they in a position to take any actions against Pakistan?
      Words with out the capability to follow up?

      Comment


      • #48
        DETLA, if you dont mind for your sake/time and my own, I will stop responding to anything that will turn into a pissing contest. But I will respond what I can.

        Originally posted by Deltacamelately View Post
        But again, Alexandar will always stand for Greece and Caesar will do so for Rome.
        Nadir is doing the same for Iran you see. Allot another park if you want.
        Delta, I guess you know Iranian history/culture far more than me, but if the opinion of an actual Iranian intrest you the least, you should atleast consider it, in your equations.

        Believe when I say this to you, Nadir Shah is far from iconic character that you think inspire Iranian people every morning when they get up. Definitly not with today's government anyways, that does not want anything to do with word SHAH. and definitly not with the population in major/minor cities who are really intrested more how to feed their families, than wonder about Nadir Shah, and when Iranians do wonder about their history, it is usually the ancients ones they remember rather than Nadir Shah, and note that today's Iranian government would want nothing to do anything from Ancient persia either.

        As far as him being a bandit, it is true, he was. and such was the way back then when a bandit chieftain, grow in strength and become a khan, then grow more powerfull and become a source of power in the royal court, and later becoming the shah. Such was the origin of the so-called Afshar Dynasty, yet had it happen 2,000 years ago, it would have been far more mystified than it does now. I am sure many dynasties great or small had similiar origin. The great line of Jahangir and Shah Jahan goes back to Babur, and him to Timur.
        Last edited by xerxes; 13 Aug 08,, 14:35.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
          Having met Mr. Bluesman personally on several occasions, and knowing fairly well what he's been - and still - doing for a living the past 20+ years...

          ...I'd advise you to be VERY happy that he's taking "cheap shots" at you over the Internet.

          Trust me, off the Internet would be FAR worse. You can bet your last rial on that ;)
          One word - "LOL".

          Originally posted by Yusuf View Post
          Taliban was also recognized by the Arab govts and Pakistan.
          There you go running your mouth again about something you clearly dont know anything.

          Initially only one Arab government recognized the Taliban, that was Saudi Arabia. The UAE followed sometime later. And... that's it.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by xerxes View Post

            As far as him being a bandit, it is true, he was. and such was the way back then when a bandit chieftain, grow in strength and become a khan, then grow more powerfull and become a source of power in the royal court, and later becoming the shah. Such was the origin of the so-called Afshar Dynasty, yet had it happen 2,000 years ago, it would have been far more mystified than it does now. I am sure many dynasties great or small had similiar origin. The great line of Jahangir and Shah Jahan goes back to Babur, and him to Timur.
            Just like don corleone from that book and movie....

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Deltacamelately View Post
              That is because he perpetrated those bloody massacres against Indians.
              20000 beheaded men, women and children, thousand raped females, thousand enslaved people is enough of a gory episode to haunt the memories of a nation for some 300 odd years, and besmirches tall claims of 2500 years of civilizational values.
              Nader Shah's occupation of Delhi is nothing compared to the rapes, murders and lootings that went among Indians when Britain split your country into Pakistan and India or what happened in the Indian state of Gujarat in 2002 or of the hallmarks of the Indian army's lock-down in Kashmir. You're an Indian, dont even begin to talk about civilized norms to ANYONE. You belong to one of the biggest cess-pools of uncivilized, uncultured barbarians in the World.

              As for Nader Shah, clearly there is the accredited version of his exploits, and your deluded version. Sure, his army slaughtered a number of Indians in Delhi. That was after they began rioting and looting in the city and attacked his men. There were few incidents of rape, unlike what you wished might have happened to your women. Nader Shah was a ruthless disciplinary and he frequently dished out punishments to soldiers that were caught committing crimes. His army showed a lot of restraint while in Delhi and it was only after continual attacks and an uprising that his soldiers were given the green light to defend themselves and a massacre took place within a confined area of Delhi where the troubles had began. The Indians were so barbaric that they then began to murder their children and women during the clashes before committing suicide themselves, even though Nader Shah's army were only given permission to subdue the rioters and loot the people Few negligible incidents of rape might have occurred. Nothing like the rapes your own people commit again each other on a daily basis. See unlike in your culture we actually have something called honour in ours which you Indians lack.

              So dont even begin to talk about Nader Shah by making up stupid accusations in your own head and contributing your lies to wikipedia about him. Nobody ever claimed that Nader Shah was a man of culture. He wasnt. And he himself chose to identify with the nomadic life-style and held settled life in low-esteem. But he was a great military general and a serious man when it came to delivering justice, stamping out corruption and fighting crime.

              And as for the 18th century.

              The 18th century World was a World full of rampant slavery, colonisation, wars, banditry and so on. There were no concepts of human rights or whatever in Nader Shah's era. Not for another 300 years or more would there be.

              Anyway, if you're not so cheap and have an attention-span that any serious normal adult should have there is a book on Nader Shah written by a British ex-FCO employee called Michael Axworthy that you can buy so that you might actually learn a thing or two about the man instead of blurting out all your current disinformation on him that came from the 2 or 3 minutes you spent skimming through wikipedia, LOL

              Comment


              • #52
                Back on topic

                Rebels Kill 2 more Hostages



                TEHRAN (FNA)- Rebels holding a group of policemen hostage claimed they have killed two of them and also abducted three Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps (IRGC) officers.

                Al Arabiya television, citing a spokesman of Jundollah (God's Soldiers), said Monday that the rebels killed the two men after "the failure of contacts between the Iranian government and Jundollah".

                Jundollah, which the Iranian government has accused of having links to al Qaeda, abducted 16 policemen in June and has already killed at least four of them.

                The IRGC officers, including a colonel and a major, were abducted on Sunday, the spokesman told the Dubai-based news network in a telephone call.

                The rebels operate mostly in Sistan-Baluchestan province near the border with Pakistan.

                The leader of the rebels, Abdolmalek Rigi, told Arabiya earlier this month that his faction was willing to talk to the government and turn itself into a political party.

                But he also said it was thinking of expanding its operations even into Tehran.

                The notorious group which first started with banditry is known for a string of terrorist operations in southeastern Iran, including bombings, kidnappings, assassination of local officials and citizens.

                In 2007, Jundollah kidnapped 30 people in Sistan-Baluchestan province. They were freed during a Pakistani police operation after abductors took them to the country.

                Jundollah claimed responsibility the same year for an attack on an Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps (IRGC) bus in which 11 IRGC personnel were killed.

                Iranian officials have said that the group's leader, Abdolmalek Rigi, heads al Qaeda's network in Iran.

                Fars News Agency :: Rebels Kill 2 more Hostages
                The regime wont negotiate with Rigi. Its bad, but i suspect all the hostages will be killed.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by xerxes View Post
                  DETLA, if you dont mind for your sake/time and my own, I will stop responding to anything that will turn into a pissing contest. But I will respond what I can.
                  Xerxes,
                  Your call.

                  Delta, I guess you know Iranian history/culture far more than me, but if the opinion of an actual Iranian intrest you the least, you should atleast consider it, in your equations.
                  Its not whether I know more than you, its just that I know Iran its history and culture. Quite obvious, very close ethenic,cultural and linguistic relations. My forefathers have lived in your backyard for centuries, my grandfather speaks Farsi better than many of the emmigrated Iranians themselves.

                  Believe when say this to you, Nadir Shah is far from iconic character that you think inspire Iranian people every morning when they get up. Definitly not with today's government anyways, that does not want anything to do with word SHAH. and definitly not with the population in major/minor cities who are really intrested more how to feed their families, than wonder about Nadir Shah, and when Iranians do wonder about their history, it is usually the ancients ones they remember rather than Nadir Shah, and note that today's Iranian government would want nothing to do anything from Ancient persia either.
                  I will believe you, BUT Nadir Shah remains an object of showcase by your Govt. Trust me on this.
                  As far as him being a bandit, it is true, he was. and such was the way back then when a bandit chieftain, grow in strength and become a khan, then grow more powerfull and become a source of power in the royal court, and later becoming the shah. Such was the origin of the so-called Afshar Dynasty, yet had it happen 2,000 years ago, it would have been far more mystified than it does now. I am sure many dynasties great or small had similiar origin. The great line of Jahangir and Shah Jahan goes back to Babur, and him to Timur.
                  That is why I quoted some names and left some more. Though Shah Jahan's bloodline runs back to Taimur Lang, they can not be equated on an individual basis. Again read, what have they contributed to the progression of civilization and mankind.
                  Xerxes,
                  I am not anti Iran. I am not against the average Iranian. I am 100% against the radicals and fanboys. Period.
                  regards,
                  sigpicAnd on the sixth day, God created the Field Artillery...

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Alamgir View Post
                    Nader Shah's occupation of Delhi is nothing compared to the rapes, murders and lootings that went among Indians when Britain split your country into Pakistan and India or what happened in the Indian state of Gujarat in 2002 or of the hallmarks of the Indian army's lock-down in Kashmir. You're an Indian, dont even begin to talk about civilized norms to ANYONE. You belong to one of the biggest cess-pools of uncivilized, uncultured barbarians in the World.
                    And your colours finally showed.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      DELTA,

                      I have read again your post, for what is worth, your points made in regards to Alexander/Caesar vis-a-vis Nadir are definitly worth thinking about. (my current view). When comparing them on your basis of comparision as explained to BM.

                      But my original view was to compare a tyrant to another, a conqueror to another, an invader to another, independently of misery they brought to those being invaded.

                      That being said, I will say something controversial that you may dislike: regarding of how much misery Nadir Shah have brought, for good and for ill, it is my firm belief that monuments and structures build in his name should not be destroyed, they can be renamed and made into museums, but not destroyed. That belief is chiefly due to my firm conviction that all historical site MUST be preserved no matter what, and no other reason than that.

                      Even if it is Nazi Germany Reichstag, or the NKVD headquarters in Moscow.
                      Last edited by xerxes; 13 Aug 08,, 20:01.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                        And your colours finally showed.
                        They always seem to, don't they.

                        Usually when somebody is losing an argument.
                        “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          That is highly dependent in which forum you loose an argument and the average opinion of forum's majority.

                          You yourself, probably wont last long in a Soviet forum.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Deltacamelately View Post
                            BM,
                            BM,
                            Why do you think so? Answer me one thing. Can Ashok and Nadir be equated? No they can not, inspite of the fact that even Ashok has a lot of blood on his hands. Its not a matter of who killed how many. It is a question about who has contributed what and how much to civilization and mankind through his military exploits. Ashok is the king who is responsible for the spread of Buddhisim and even Indian spirituality through the same to a third of mankind. He is the symbol of our very indentity through his Lion Capitol. The Bamian Buddha, Saarnath, Nalanda, Taxila etc are all entwined with him and the Mauryans. Alexandar through his military exploits had the entire ME and Asia under his influence and that age is termed as the Hellenic Age, together with widespread influence of Greek Art/Culture/Literature/Medicine/Military etc etc. Same applies for Julius Caesar and the spread of Roman culture/governance etc etc. Now compare this with what Nadir Shah has contributed through his military exploits. Ancient Rulers waged war, captured land, enslaved people, killed people. All have done that. Greatness of the rulers come into play with what they or their empire have contributed towards progression of civilization and mankind. Nadir Shah and likes are dud. So once again, One can not equate bandits like Changez Khan, Nadir Shah, Mohammad Ghauri, Taimur Lang, irrespective of their warfighting skills with say, Sher Shah Suri, Ashok, Chandragupt, Guptas, Akbar, Humayun, Quing and to that effect Alexandar, Caesar and Napoleon.
                            He defeated a Mughal army that was bigger than his army and had more resources than him. IIRC, there was a battle where he pulled off some decisive manuevers that completely killed the Mughal Army aka style Battle of Cannae. He invaded an area that was bigger than the area invaded by Napoleon.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Alamgir View Post
                              Nader Shah's occupation of Delhi is nothing compared to the rapes, murders and lootings that went among Indians when Britain split your country into Pakistan and India or what happened in the Indian state of Gujarat in 2002 or of the hallmarks of the Indian army's lock-down in Kashmir. You're an Indian, dont even begin to talk about civilized norms to ANYONE. You belong to one of the biggest cess-pools of uncivilized, uncultured barbarians in the World.
                              I read through your dribble; but you truly must be a moron to use the Partition, the Gujarat riots, or the so percieved "lock-down" in Kashmir, as a benchmark to declare India as the, in your words, "biggest cess-pools of uncivilized, uncultured barbarians in the World". Because, if that is so, then I simply fail to imagine how low Iran must be on that scale. I mean, lets just take the most recent event which you mentioned, the Gujarat riots of 2002, where Hindus and Muslims murdered each other; and compare with what happens in Iran on a daily basis. Ok, so riots took place, people were killed... and then probes took place! followed by judicial trials! followed by convictions! Now compare that with Iran where people are butchered simply if their beliefs don't go down well with the government. A country where people are whipped or stoned to death. Also a land from where Persians flocked to India after the Islamic invasions when they were getting butchered up! So if we happen to be the "biggest cess-pools of uncivilized, uncultured barbarians in the World"; then I simply cannot imagine the type of world you come from!!
                              Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
                              -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                                And your colours finally showed.
                                Sir,
                                I had a notion from his 1st post in this thread that he won't last long.
                                Too much fire in the belly.
                                sigpicAnd on the sixth day, God created the Field Artillery...

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