MiG-29 “FALCON HUNTER” Exclusive : THE WINNER

[jgetti]

you know what makes me sick, going to all these forums that state how superior western technology is to Russian, you guys are just too overly biased towards America, do you even admit that Russia has some good military hardware, if not, boy your living a sad life, there are a few russian pieces of equipment without any analogues in the west such as the Iskander and the Brahmos missile

take it easy on the insults M21 Sniper, i can just as easily say that about the "crappy" F-16, if they are so crappy, then why did they shoot down a total of 6 aircraft including a stealthy bomber

F-117 downed by MiG 29 on March 24
NATO aircraft downed by MiG 29 on March 24
F-16C downed by MiG 29 on March 26
F-15E downed by a MiG 29 on March 26
NATO aircraft downed by MiG 29 on May 21
NATO aircraft downed by MiG 29 on May 31

other NATO/USAF aircraft downed by enemy fighter pilots were:

F-15E downed by MiG 21 on March 26
F-15 downed by MiG 21 on April 6(after dogfight)

and NATO/USAF aircraft shot down by unknown aircraft and unknown missiles(which implies that a Yugoslavian aircraft shot it down, with an unknown missile)

NATO aircraft downed by AAM on March 24
F-16 downed by AAM on March 28
(4 F-16's) downed by AAM missiles on March 28
(2 NATO aircraft) downed by AAM missiles on May 5
(3 NATO aircraft) downed by AAM missiles on May 12
(5 NATO aircraft) downed by AAM missiles on May 12
(2 NATO aircraft) downed by AAM missiles on May 12
(5 NATO aircraft) downed by AAM missiles on May 20
(13 NATO aircraft) downed by AAM missiles on May 20
(2 NATO aircraft) downed by AAM missiles on May 20

therefore, Yugoslavian pilots who were outnumbered 5+:1, shot down a total of 46 NATO/USAF aircraft with with the possibility of anymore between 6-46 aircraft being shot down by Yugoslav MiG 29's that were outnumbered 5(minimum)+:1

(since, it is unlikely that a MiG 21 could destroy aircraft from ranges close to the MiG 29)

in total, another 165 downed aircraft by unknown causes

also, many MiG 29's were shot down, but no where near the number of NATO/USAF aircraft downed because Yugoslavia had a much smaller airforce, these following Yugoslav aircraft were downed

MiG 21FK downed by F/A-18 on March 26
MiG 21 downed by unknown causes on March 28
MiG 21 downed by unknown causes on March 28
MiG 21 downed by unknown causes on March 28
MiG 21 downed by unknown causes on March 28
MiG 23 downed by unknown causes on March 28
MiG 23 downed by unknown causes on March 28
MiG 23 downed by unknown causes on March 28
MiG 29 downed by unknown causes on March 28
MiG 29 downed by unknown causes on March 28
MiG 29 downed by unknown causes on March 28
MiG 21 downed by unknown causes on May 12
MiG 21 downed by F-15E on May 11
MiG 21 downed by F-15E on May 11
MiG 29 downed by unknown causes on March 24
MiG 29 downed by F-16 on March 26
MiG 29 downed by F-15E on March 26
J-22 Orao downed by unknown causes on April 18
G-4 Super Galeb downed by unknown causes on April 22

there was also one MiG 21 damaged by a SAM on April 18, but it was not destroyed

MiG 21-8 destroyed
MiG 23-3 destroyed
MiG 29-6 destroyed
J-22 Orao-1 destroyed
G-4 Super Galeb-1 destroyed

the MiG 29 downed 6 confirmed aircraft, and 6 MiG 29 aircraft were downed(1:1) ratio(MiG 21 downed 2 aircraft, and a total of 8 MiG 21 were downed, giving it a 4:1 ratio) (on March 28, NATO or the USAF launched a bombing raid on an air field or somethiing like that, almost all of those aircraft downed on March 28 were downed on the ground, it was not aeriel combat

if you take into account the other 38 aircraft that were downed by AAM missiles, since the MiG 29 was Yugoslavia's most advanced fighter, you can therfore acredit those kills, or most of those kills to the MiG 29, therefore, the MiG 29 kill ratio can be any where between 1:1-7.3:1

and this is by inferior pilots outnumbered and outgunned majorly in as M21 Sniper stated "a piece of junk that has performed horribly in real combat"

now, if you take into account all the NATO/USAF aircraft downed by unknown causes which totals 165 aircraft, the kill ratio of the MiG 29 significantly rasies, but the thing is that, these aircraft downed by unknown causes could have been and most likely were downed by SAM's and AAA guns, so, this would provide a slight increase in the kill ratio of the MiG 29

oh, for all those that are against plasma stealth technology, they ahve already tested it on an aircraft, i nkow that most of you biased people will disregard this as bs, and you've all heard of Russia having a third generation of plasma generators requiring only 100kW of energy and weighs less than 100 kg

but they have tested a plasma screen on an Su-33( sorry, i read the article about a year ago, and thus don't remember off the bat, it was either a Su-30, Su-32, Su-33, Su-35) yea one of those, anyways, they used a plasma screen to cover up the RW emissions that the radome which houses the radar would emmit(the radar accounts for a significant amount of the RCS of an aircraft) i forgot how much the RCS decreased, i think it was 60%, which is relatively moderate gains

um, dealing with the radar issue with plasma, many pilots when flying, don't have their radar turned on, its just too much of a liable asset, since it would increase your RCS significantly when you turn your radar on, the enmy might detect you, anyways, you can still use the IRST, which i've heard future models will have a 50 km range, in addition

wouldn't it be a reasonable trade to turn off your radar(which makes you almost unable to detect any enemy aircraft) to lower your RCS significantly, thus making YOU very hard to detect, you can get into short range(50km or lower) and fire your IR missiles in WVR which russian aircraft excel in

anyways, just some calculations, my source for the downings of NATO/USAF aircraft during the Yugoslav air war, the site doesn't wokr right now, its aeronautics.ru if any of you are familiar with it, i have an entire database on downed aircraft on Excel if anyone wishes to observe it, in addition, i found three interesting happenings

a B-2A Spirit of of Missouri was downed on May 2 by a SAM and was detected by long wave early warning radars, the seriel number of the aircraft was AV-8 88-0329, the aircraft was hit by a SAM and continued to fly, but crashed into the mountain because it was decreasing in alltitude, it crashed between Simanovci and Kupinovo in the Pecinci district

another B-2A Spirit of Washington was downed on June 1 by unknown casues, its seriel number was AV-11 88-0332

another B-2A was shot down on May 8 by unkown causes, since i haven't foudn its seriel number, i deem this an unconfirmed downing

let me try to find the lnik with the aircraft utilizing the plasma screen, i tried a month ago and couldn't find it.........................yes, found one link

http://home.iae.nl/users/wbergmns/stealth2.htm

so, effectively, putting one of these devices onboard an aircraft would make it seem stealthier than if you used ferr-magnetic radar absorbant materiel, and painted its surfaces with radar dissipating paint, doing this can reduce the RCS of an aircraft by 10-15dB, while using a plasma screen can effectively reduce the RCS of an aircraft by 20dB, which is 75%-100% more effective, plus wouldn't put any excessive airflow and weight restrictions on the aircraft

http://uploads.abovetopsecret.com/ats15684_sweetman.txt

also, another advantage to a better decreased RCS is that it is far easier to maintain than RAM and paint coatings, reducing the costs for maintenance, which playa a huge part in a tender Russia is also developing ceramic panels that would coat the engine ducts, but wouldn't impede the airflow, like the tiles used on the F-22

well, thats all i can find right now, bye

You can rattle off all you want about other jets, but one thing I know for certain,,, there has NEVER been an F-15 downed by any other aircraft EVER.

[troung]

"the site doesn't wokr right now, its aeronautics.ru if any of you are familiar with it, i have an entire database on downed aircraft on Excel if anyone wishes to observe it, in addition, i found three interesting happenings"

Lock the topic...

"you know what makes me sick, going to all these forums that state how superior western technology is to Russian, you guys are just too overly biased towards America"

I guess it makes you sad but American weapons have normally done better during the shooting parts of wars...

"do you even admit that Russia has some good military hardware, if not, boy your living a sad life, there are a few russian pieces of equipment without any analogues in the west such as the Iskander and the Brahmos missile"

Yeah the M-46, D-30, AKM/AK-47/AKMS, SVD, AT-3, BM-21, ZIS-3, RPG-7, SA-7, ZSU-23-4, ZU-23-2, S-60, BM-22, DShK-38/46, Mi-8, Mi-17MD, IL-76, PPSh-41, IL-2, Pe-2, Yak-9, La-5FN, MiG-27, Mi-24, Su-25, T-34-85, IS-3, PKM, were all good pieces of equipment during their periods of use (the older ones) and some still now.

[SwingKid]

You can rattle off all you want about other jets, but one thing I know for certain,,, there has NEVER been an F-15 downed by any other aircraft EVER.

Can you shed any light on this story?

"Suddenly the lone F-15 was attacked by two fighter MiG-25 Foxbats of AQAJAS from different directions. Before the Eagle pilot could destroy the MiG in front of him, he was shot down by the MiG-25 Foxbat beside him with two R-40 Acrid(one radar- homing and the second one heat-seeking) missiles. Israel recognized the victory and denied the loss."

http://www.geocities.com/siafdu/foxbat2.html

-SK

P.S. Please learn to trim quoted text. yeesh...

[jgetti]

just to reply to this statement, the Indians outnumbered the F-15's usually 10-12 to 4, the Indians operated the MiG 27, MiG 21BIS, MiG 29, Mirage 2000 and Su-30K(NOT MKI) , the MiG 27 was a strike aircraft, and was being escorted by the MiG 21BIS and the other aircraft engaged the F-15, so in most instances, it wasn't really 10:4, it was usually 6-8:4, also, and they did not have any AESA radrs, but there was this competition with ELmendorf pilots at Elmendorf AFB, in which the aircraft were equipped with AESA radrs, and the longest range AAM's in USAF service, yet still lost tho the Flankers, let me see if i can find the link

http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/exercise...article02.html

in this article, in the last part of the second paragraph up from the last picture, it mentions that all missiles were limited, this is dealing with the DACT excercise know as COPE India at Gwailor

you know what, i can't find it now, thats all, later

why are you guys so anti-russian, its really pathetic

http://www.cdi.org/russia/313-9.cfm

well, here is another article that mentions a few excercises between Russian aircraft and Canadian and South African Aircraft, in which, the MiG 29 went up against the Mirage 2000 in South Africe, the MiG 29 came out on top, wait, i'm still looking...........

Not anti-russian,, I have a lot of respect for Russian aircraft. But I also know the capabilities of my aircraft. First of all, you need to keep in mind that the cooperative fly-off's such as COPE India and COPE Thunder are cooperative flyoffs to learn more about eachother's tactics. They are NOT intended to determine a winner or loser. If you are taking it that way then you are missing the point all together. Clearly that's how everybody likes to interpret them. There are also a lot of politics involved in these cooperative flyoffs whether you want to believe it or not and it has everything to do with saving the F/A-22 program. Bottom line is, in an actual combat scenerio, the F-15 can maintain air superiority over ANY active service aircraft threat out there. That's it.

[jgetti]

Can you shed any light on this story?

Sure can,,, find a source of information with a little credability next time.

P.S. Please learn to trim quoted text. yeesh...

":Originally Posted by Dima
you know what makes me sick, going to all these forums that state how superior western technology is to Russian, you guys are just too overly biased towards America, do you even admit that Russia has some good military hardware, if not, boy your living a sad life, there are a few russian pieces of equipment without any analogues in the west such as the Iskander and the Brahmos missile

take it easy on the insults M21 Sniper, i can just as easily say that about the "crappy" F-16, if they are so crappy, then why did they shoot down a total of 6 aircraft including a stealthy bomber

F-117 downed by MiG 29 on March 24
NATO aircraft downed by MiG 29 on March 24
F-16C downed by MiG 29 on March 26
F-15E downed by a MiG 29 on March 26
NATO aircraft downed by MiG 29 on May 21
NATO aircraft downed by MiG 29 on May 31

other NATO/USAF aircraft downed by enemy fighter pilots were:

F-15E downed by MiG 21 on March 26
F-15 downed by MiG 21 on April 6(after dogfight)

and NATO/USAF aircraft shot down by unknown aircraft and unknown missiles(which implies that a Yugoslavian aircraft shot it down, with an unknown missile)

NATO aircraft downed by AAM on March 24
F-16 downed by AAM on March 28
(4 F-16's) downed by AAM missiles on March 28
(2 NATO aircraft) downed by AAM missiles on May 5
(3 NATO aircraft) downed by AAM missiles on May 12
(5 NATO aircraft) downed by AAM missiles on May 12
(2 NATO aircraft) downed by AAM missiles on May 12
(5 NATO aircraft) downed by AAM missiles on May 20
(13 NATO aircraft) downed by AAM missiles on May 20
(2 NATO aircraft) downed by AAM missiles on May 20

therefore, Yugoslavian pilots who were outnumbered 5+:1, shot down a total of 46 NATO/USAF aircraft with with the possibility of anymore between 6-46 aircraft being shot down by Yugoslav MiG 29's that were outnumbered 5(minimum)+:1

(since, it is unlikely that a MiG 21 could destroy aircraft from ranges close to the MiG 29)

in total, another 165 downed aircraft by unknown causes

also, many MiG 29's were shot down, but no where near the number of NATO/USAF aircraft downed because Yugoslavia had a much smaller airforce, these following Yugoslav aircraft were downed

MiG 21FK downed by F/A-18 on March 26
MiG 21 downed by unknown causes on March 28
MiG 21 downed by unknown causes on March 28
MiG 21 downed by unknown causes on March 28
MiG 21 downed by unknown causes on March 28
MiG 23 downed by unknown causes on March 28
MiG 23 downed by unknown causes on March 28
MiG 23 downed by unknown causes on March 28
MiG 29 downed by unknown causes on March 28
MiG 29 downed by unknown causes on March 28
MiG 29 downed by unknown causes on March 28
MiG 21 downed by unknown causes on May 12
MiG 21 downed by F-15E on May 11
MiG 21 downed by F-15E on May 11
MiG 29 downed by unknown causes on March 24
MiG 29 downed by F-16 on March 26
MiG 29 downed by F-15E on March 26
J-22 Orao downed by unknown causes on April 18
G-4 Super Galeb downed by unknown causes on April 22

there was also one MiG 21 damaged by a SAM on April 18, but it was not destroyed

MiG 21-8 destroyed
MiG 23-3 destroyed
MiG 29-6 destroyed
J-22 Orao-1 destroyed
G-4 Super Galeb-1 destroyed

the MiG 29 downed 6 confirmed aircraft, and 6 MiG 29 aircraft were downed(1:1) ratio(MiG 21 downed 2 aircraft, and a total of 8 MiG 21 were downed, giving it a 4:1 ratio) (on March 28, NATO or the USAF launched a bombing raid on an air field or somethiing like that, almost all of those aircraft downed on March 28 were downed on the ground, it was not aeriel combat

if you take into account the other 38 aircraft that were downed by AAM missiles, since the MiG 29 was Yugoslavia's most advanced fighter, you can therfore acredit those kills, or most of those kills to the MiG 29, therefore, the MiG 29 kill ratio can be any where between 1:1-7.3:1

and this is by inferior pilots outnumbered and outgunned majorly in as M21 Sniper stated "a piece of junk that has performed horribly in real combat"

now, if you take into account all the NATO/USAF aircraft downed by unknown causes which totals 165 aircraft, the kill ratio of the MiG 29 significantly rasies, but the thing is that, these aircraft downed by unknown causes could have been and most likely were downed by SAM's and AAA guns, so, this would provide a slight increase in the kill ratio of the MiG 29

oh, for all those that are against plasma stealth technology, they ahve already tested it on an aircraft, i nkow that most of you biased people will disregard this as bs, and you've all heard of Russia having a third generation of plasma generators requiring only 100kW of energy and weighs less than 100 kg

but they have tested a plasma screen on an Su-33( sorry, i read the article about a year ago, and thus don't remember off the bat, it was either a Su-30, Su-32, Su-33, Su-35) yea one of those, anyways, they used a plasma screen to cover up the RW emissions that the radome which houses the radar would emmit(the radar accounts for a significant amount of the RCS of an aircraft) i forgot how much the RCS decreased, i think it was 60%, which is relatively moderate gains

um, dealing with the radar issue with plasma, many pilots when flying, don't have their radar turned on, its just too much of a liable asset, since it would increase your RCS significantly when you turn your radar on, the enmy might detect you, anyways, you can still use the IRST, which i've heard future models will have a 50 km range, in addition

wouldn't it be a reasonable trade to turn off your radar(which makes you almost unable to detect any enemy aircraft) to lower your RCS significantly, thus making YOU very hard to detect, you can get into short range(50km or lower) and fire your IR missiles in WVR which russian aircraft excel in

anyways, just some calculations, my source for the downings of NATO/USAF aircraft during the Yugoslav air war, the site doesn't wokr right now, its aeronautics.ru if any of you are familiar with it, i have an entire database on downed aircraft on Excel if anyone wishes to observe it, in addition, i found three interesting happenings

a B-2A Spirit of of Missouri was downed on May 2 by a SAM and was detected by long wave early warning radars, the seriel number of the aircraft was AV-8 88-0329, the aircraft was hit by a SAM and continued to fly, but crashed into the mountain because it was decreasing in alltitude, it crashed between Simanovci and Kupinovo in the Pecinci district

another B-2A Spirit of Washington was downed on June 1 by unknown casues, its seriel number was AV-11 88-0332

another B-2A was shot down on May 8 by unkown causes, since i haven't foudn its seriel number, i deem this an unconfirmed downing

let me try to find the lnik with the aircraft utilizing the plasma screen, i tried a month ago and couldn't find it.........................yes, found one link

http://home.iae.nl/users/wbergmns/stealth2.htm

so, effectively, putting one of these devices onboard an aircraft would make it seem stealthier than if you used ferr-magnetic radar absorbant materiel, and painted its surfaces with radar dissipating paint, doing this can reduce the RCS of an aircraft by 10-15dB, while using a plasma screen can effectively reduce the RCS of an aircraft by 20dB, which is 75%-100% more effective, plus wouldn't put any excessive airflow and weight restrictions on the aircraft

http://uploads.abovetopsecret.com/ats15684_sweetman.txt

also, another advantage to a better decreased RCS is that it is far easier to maintain than RAM and paint coatings, reducing the costs for maintenance, which playa a huge part in a tender Russia is also developing ceramic panels that would coat the engine ducts, but wouldn't impede the airflow, like the tiles used on the F-22

well, thats all i can find right now, bye"




How's that for a trimmed quote?

[SwingKid]

Sure can,,, find a source of information with a little credability next time.

What do you call "a little"? Can you identify a single other statement on that page that should be doubted?

How's that for a trimmed quote?

Do you like to talk about fighter jets, or do you just come here to feel superior to children?

-SK

[Officer of Engineers]

Officer of Engineers, when that site gets back up, i'll give you many links regarding the downing of NATO aircraft

and you are wrong as well, badly wrong, sorry man, but America did admit to losing an F-117 to an SA-3/SA-6 on March 27

No, I am not wrong at all. I know of the F-117 downing. I was a Lieutenant-Colonel in the Canadian Forces even though I've retired before the Kosovo War. I've spoken to Russian and East Bloc General Staff officers since the war and none of us can believe the crap the internet has provided. There is no site that you can provide that can contradict the list of personal and serial numbers that I have access to.

Again, it is very simple. Can you count? 1, 2 , 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 airplanes took off. 1, 2 , 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 airplanes landed. It is that simple.

[Bluesman]

No combat losses of B-2s ever, either.

You're talking through your hat, junior.

[MIKEMUN]

And why do people use mock combat as a base for saying that American Aircraft are bad??America has developed most of its planes from war experiences...America has taken part in a lot of conflicts since the end of the second world war,and believe me they have enough experience to develop tactics..Military aircraft are for war,no fancy stuff.You kill the other guy or be killed.Period..Unfortunately every country that has fielded Russian aircraft against America has ended on the bad end of the stick.Militarily,I mean..Those are facts and no Amount of wishful thinking will change the fact that at this moment America has the best Air Force in the world,whether we like it or not..They got the money to train their pilots and to maintain their planes..And I do not see any Air Force on the horizon that can outclass it...My humble opinion..

[jgetti]

What do you call "a little"? Can you identify a single other statement on that page that should be doubted?



Do you like to talk about fighter jets, or do you just come here to feel superior to children?

-SK

Look, I can go out on the internet and find an article that contests man ever walked on the moon too. That doesn't mean it has any credability. If you want to make a case about 'fighter aircraft' all I'm saying is make sure your referenced articles have a little damned credability. The one you presented is wrong,, plain and simple. I like to talk about fighter jets, especially to contribute what I know. THE F-15 HAS NEVER BEEN SHOT DOWN IN A TO A COMBAT.

[SwingKid]

Look, I can go out on the internet and find an article that contests man ever walked on the moon too. That doesn't mean it has any credability. If you want to make a case about 'fighter aircraft' all I'm saying is make sure your referenced articles have a little damned credability.

Where I come from, web pages that talk about mass NATO aircraft losses over Yugoslavia are considered to have very low credibility.

The story about F-15s in Israel, however, is about as clear as mud. Israel doesn't have a very good reputation of being a credible source of information itself. Thee are photos of an F-15 that landed with an entire wing missing, and no explanation. Could this be the story? The F-15 was hit and damaged, but returned safely and was reparied? Or they were two different events, the wing loss was to a "bird strike" as the Israelis claimed? Or the F-15 vs MiG-25 combat was a total hoax? I'd rather discuss what actually happened than who is and isn't "credible."

Even otherwise credible sources can be wrong here and there, that doesn't make them any less credible. The fact that one Israeli F-15 was rumored to be lost to a MiG-25 is not at all incorrect and reported in many detailed articles and books that have nothing to do with the web page I've cited. If the rumor is wrong, what difference does the general credibility of the source make? I've talked to people who worked on F-15s who were provably wrong on some things.

The rumor may be true or completely false, the web page may be right or wrong. You might be in a very good position to know with certainty. But there's little sense attacking the messenger. If the best argument you can make is that the source is something an ordinary observer should immediately have the powers to recognize as "not credible," and are unable to identify the clues that give this away, well that's "begging the question," and your own statements start to lose a little credibility themselves. Just because the truth seems very obvious to you doesn't mean it's obvious to everyone else. Imagine not knowing what you know, and reading what you've written.

The one you presented is wrong,, plain and simple. I like to talk about fighter jets, especially to contribute what I know. THE F-15 HAS NEVER BEEN SHOT DOWN IN A TO A COMBAT.

I have no obstacle to believing you, but how can we be sure you really know? I don't know everything that ever happened to every antenna I ever designed. The USAF lost some of its own credibility in some peoples' eyes by making dramatic increases to their claimed air-to-air Sabre losses in the years after Korea...

-SK

[Bill]

"The Fulcrum did scare the USAF Aardvark fleet into early retirement after all..."

The end of the Cold War had more to do with the mass retirement of various US aircraft and systems than any other cause.

[SwingKid]

"The Fulcrum did scare the USAF Aardvark fleet into early retirement after all..."

The end of the Cold War had more to do with the mass retirement of various US aircraft and systems than any other cause.

There's truth to that, but there's also more to the story. The low-altitude penetration role was really wide open to NATO strikers until the MiG-29 introduced a Soviet look-down shoot-down radar. Sidewinder-armed F-111s and Tornados, the tip of the spear of the NATO strike force, would have made far tastier pickings for Fulcrum pilots than winning 1-vs-1s against (then) Sidewinder-armed F-16s. That's what Western stealth and multirole are all about: departing from the now-obsolete low-altitude penetration doctrine. So in a strategic sense, the MiG-29 accomplished something comparable to the F-15.

-SK

[jgetti]

The story about F-15s in Israel, however, is about as clear as mud. Israel doesn't have a very good reputation of being a credible source of information itself. Thee are photos of an F-15 that landed with an entire wing missing, and no explanation. Could this be the story? The F-15 was hit and damaged, but returned safely and was reparied? Or they were two different events, the wing loss was to a "bird strike" as the Israelis claimed? Or the F-15 vs MiG-25 combat was a total hoax? I'd rather discuss what actually happened than who is and isn't "credible." -SK

The F-15 that lost the wind really did happen, and it was due to collision with an A-4 during a combat exercise. It's documented here at McDonnell Douglas. We keep track of every single jet that goes out the door as does USAF. We know what happened. Just like we know that there hasn't been a combat loss of an F-15 in A to A ever. I'm not allowed to give you the PROOF you're looking for. You can take my word for it, or you can leave it. I don't care either way.

[SwingKid]

It's documented here at McDonnell Douglas. We keep track of every single jet that goes out the door as does USAF. We know what happened.

Good enough for me.

Did you ever find out what really happened with Speicher's F/A-18 in 1991? I hear rumors that was "friendly fire," and not a MiG-25PD as once claimed.

-SK