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  • #16
    Every society, whether communist, capitalist, democratic, monarchy, theocratic, likes to claim to be the land of milk and honey while demonizing everyone else. Has been since the beginning of civilization regardless of the country, and will continue to be so (at least until scientists figure out how to shut off the selfish components of our brains).

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    • #17
      China certainly is not a paradise, yet...

      Personally, when it comes to solving problems like this, government should consider two handed approach. Hard hand, to punish any Tibet and Xinjinag separatist, soft hand, do everything necessary to improve locals living standand and life quality, unite with every possible social power. so that those who stand by for a united country can benefit, and those who oppose it faces punishment. for what China has done so far, the government is not hard enough in Tibet and not soft enough in Xinjiang.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by xunil View Post
        Elbmek, I suggest you use you head before you speak.
        Its not my opinion, my friend, its the planet's opinion.

        I do hope that the mention of Tibet was tongue in cheek, China being the oppressor here. They invade a sovereign state, overthrew a legitimate government and suppressed both religion and the people. Heaven knows how many dissidents have "vanished" along the way. Until China returns Tibet to its people nobody will take any reforms, or suggestions of rforms seriously.
        Last edited by Elbmek; 26 Jun 08,, 10:15.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by cdude View Post
          Ray,

          Big words, long posts aint mean squat..

          http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/cur...tml#post509587

          That thread is closed by the admin, so I have to respond to you here.

          First you are calling me a commie repeatedly, and I told you again and again that I'm not. It's fine.

          Then you called me the CCDUDE, gosh, you need to see your optometrist NOW. My name is clearly CDUDE, where did you get the second C from? I sure wanna have what you are smoking.

          Then you insulted me by saying CCDUDE stands for tje Chinese communist dude.. Again I have only one C in my name, and that's the initial of my last name. But whatever. Let me tell you something, you aint know nothing about China or China's young generation. You aint learning nothing by surfing those hatred filled anti-China websites...

          Let me tell you more about my generation, we travel, we see, we prosper. I aint say nothing about your country, coz 1 I don't care, 2, I don't think I know enough about it. You need to get out of the hole and see what China is all about, stop insulting people whom you don't know and clearly have no idea about.

          But for Gandhi's sake... stop calling others commies.. I know that earns you some points here, coz we all know most of the frequents here are conservatives.
          Chum,

          You claim that you are not a Communist, but you are the shrillest. How come? What do you mean that I visit hatred filled sites? Boston Globe is a hatred filled site? The testimony in the US Congress is hate filled? And yet you are staying in the US which the ''hate filled'' country, the US and enjoying the fruits of freedom and enterprise and fly the Chinese Communist fllag for identity. Having the best of both world and biting the hand that feeds since you are in the US.

          I don't use big words. To you it might be an ordeal, but to me they are common place. Long posts are there for people like you so that there is very little of leeway for you to jump and do a dirge!

          What is ain't? Trying to show how much of a colloquialism of the US you know? Trying to cosy up? I ain't say nothing, means you say something since two negatives make a positive. You want those who know English to get consused or are you keeping an escape route open?

          It does not matter what they young generation of Chinese think. What matters to the world is what the aged and ancient Chinese who are in the CCP think. The young may take pot or do a pole dance for all I care, it is the CCP and the Chinese Communist govt which the ancient that concerns the world.

          I am no Chinese Communist citizen to go in any raptures or ecstasy to toe the Chinese Communist line and because of this you are raging and prancing like a bull in a china shop!!

          I thought you did not care for my posts and you would not bother to reply. What happened? Touched to the quick, are you?

          I don't melt at the name of Gandhi as you may melt at the name of Mao. Gandhi may have done a lot for my country, but it does not mean he has bought my heart and soul. He has his place in history and I have a thing that you do not have when you are in China - freedom of thought and speech!!

          And my govt cannot control my existence. Because I live in a Democracy, I am the Master of my Fate and the Captain of my Soul - a luxury you do not enjoy in China.

          Are you suggesting that what is going on in Tibet and Xinjiang are US encouraged propaganda? If so leave the US and go home and take up cudgels against the US govt. Quit enjoying the hospitality of the US if you think they are liars! Can't have you cake and eat it too!


          "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

          I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

          HAKUNA MATATA

          Comment


          • #20
            Cdude,

            Let's learn from you since you are the shrillest supporter of the Communist Chinese.

            How's the human rights going on?

            Why has China a totalitarian regime and not a regime that permits the citizens to vote in their leaders?

            The problem with you chaps is that you believe that money and progress can buy happiness. That is why you are confused as to what is wrong with the Tibetans.

            Spiritual happiness and mental peace is also a very important input.

            Everyone cannot take in a robotic existence, though I concede some can and that is why you find so many Chinese in raptures over money. And that is why there is also high corruption and equality of the proletariat as the Great Helmsman wanted got damned.

            Being robots is no fun!
            Last edited by Ray; 26 Jun 08,, 16:08.


            "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

            I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

            HAKUNA MATATA

            Comment


            • #21
              Skywatcher,

              I don't think all consider their land to be that of milk or honey.

              Only the blind, semi literate and the brainwashed believe so!


              "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

              I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

              HAKUNA MATATA

              Comment


              • #22
                The very fact that controversial issue are not allowed to be discussed in China, indicates the Communist penchant to show to its people all is well.

                If problems cannot be discussed, then how can one improve.

                It is not idea of going around the street saying "China is the Greatest" since that is not controversial and it is what the govt wants to hear from the citizens!!

                If controversial issues are not allowed to be discussed, then how come that the Chinese don't think that they live in a Paradise.

                When the onslaught of Chinese posters were there, all one heard how great China was!!

                Now, don't tell me that they were US and CIA planted posters since everything uncomfortable is laid at the US' doorstep or on capitalist roaders.
                I love this word which the Chinese Communists have coined!


                "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

                I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

                HAKUNA MATATA

                Comment


                • #23
                  Cdude

                  Just tell me the errors in this


                  Taiwan is a country of its own with a Constitution and elections and a booming economy.

                  Taiwan is composed of Austronesian people and after the colonisation by the Dutch, then followed followed the influx of Han Chinese including Hakka immigrants from areas of Fujian and Guangdong of China, across the Taiwan Strait when in 1662, Zheng Cheng-gong, of the Ming Dynasty, defeated the Dutch.

                  In fact, China seceded Taiwan to the Japanese in 1895 after the first Sino Japanese War and then after World War II, Chaing Kai Shek of the KMT exiled himself and made it the Republic of China.

                  Therefore, it was captured land, lost to the Japanese and then KMT took over and declared it ROC.

                  Thus, it is not China!!

                  In so far as Tibet is concerned, the first externally confirmed contact with the Tibetan kingdom in recorded Tibetan history occurred when King Namri Löntsän sent an ambassador to China in the early 7th century.

                  From the 7th to the 11th century a series of emperors ruled Tibet.

                  The Chinese records mention an envoy in 634. On that occasion, the Emperor requested marriage to a Chinese princess and was refused but the Emperor defeated the Chinese and won over the Princess whose name is Wencheng.

                  A Sino-Tibetan treaty know as The Great Sino-Tibetan Peace Treaty of 821/822 CEwas agreed on in 821/822 under Ralpacan, which established peace for more than two decades.

                  After the death of Landarna, there followed an era of confusion and turmoil over who should rule.

                  In 1230, the Mongols , having captured North China and much of Central China, invaded Tibet.

                  Altan Khan, the king of the Tümed Mongols, first invited Sonam Gyatso to Mongolia in 1569. Sonam Gyatso, the head of the Gelugpa school of Tibetan Buddhism and the third Dalai Lama, apparently refused to go and sent a disciple instead, who reported back to him about the great opportunity to spread Buddhist teachings throughout Mongolia.

                  In 1573 Altan Khan took some Tibetan Buddhist monks prisoner. He invited the Sonam Gyatso to Mongolia again in 1578, and this time Sonam Gyatso accepted the invitation. They met at the site of Altan Khan's new capital, Koko Khotan (Hohhot), and the Dalai Lama gave teachings to a huge crowd there. Altan Khan had Thegchen Chonkhor, Mongolia's first monastery built in what is now modern Hohhot, capital of the Inner Mongolian Autonomous Region.[69] Also, the ruler of the Khalkha Mongols, Abtai Sain Khan, rushed to Tumet to meet the Dalai Lama.

                  Yonten Gyatso (1589 – 1616), the fourth Dalai Lama and a non-Tibetan, was the grandson of Altan Khan.

                  In 1652 the fifth Dalai Lama visited the Manchu emperor, Shunzhi. He was not required to kowtow, and received a seal.

                  In 1705, Lobzang Khan of the Khoshud used the sixth Dalai Lama's escapades as excuse to take control of Tibet. The regent was murdered, and the Dalai Lama sent to Beijing.

                  So much for Tibet being Chinese.


                  Xinjiang. The Qing Empire, established by the Manchus (and they are not Hans or a part of the Han Dynasty at all) in China, gained control over eastern Xinjiang as a result of a long struggle with the Zunghars (Dzungars) that began in the seventeenth century. In 1755, the Manchu Empire attacked Ghulja, and captured the Zunghar khan. Over the next two years, the Manchus and Mongol armies of the Qing destroyed the remnants of the Zunghar khanate, and attempted to divide the Xinjiang region into four sub-khanates under four chiefs. Similarly, the Qing made members of a clan of sufi shaykhs known as the Khojas, rulers in the western Tarim Basin, south of the Tianshan Mts. In 1758-59, however, rebellions against this arrangement broke out both north and south of the Tian Shan mountains. The Qing was thus forced, contrary to its initial intent, to establish a form of direct military rule over both Zungharia (northern Xinjiang) and the Tarim Basin (southern Xinjiang). The Manchus put the whole region under the rule of a General of Ili, headquartered at the fort of Huiyuan (the so-called "Manchu Kuldja", or Yili), 30 km west of Ghulja (Yining).

                  So much for Xinjiang being Chinese.
                  Though I will add, it makes no difference to me.

                  It is for the Tibetans and the Uighers to decide.
                  Last edited by Ray; 26 Jun 08,, 11:56.


                  "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

                  I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

                  HAKUNA MATATA

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    The Evolution of Corruption in China- Part 1

                    Part 1 of 8
                    By He Qinglian, Special to The Epoch Times
                    Translated from the Chinese edition
                    Aug 13, 2004

                    He Qinglian is perhaps the most famous Chinese economic commentator. In August 1996 she completed a book on the social and economic ills of China after two decades of reform policies. It first appeared in Hong Kong in 1997 under the title China’s Pitfall, and an edited version was published in Beijing as Modernization’s Pitfall in January 1998, with a preface by Liu Ji, Vice-President of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, then an adviser to Jiang Zemin. The book was an immediate success, selling 200,000 legal copies and vastly more pirated ones. Her more recent writings have more blatantly found fault with the government, and have led to her exile to the United States.

                    From Individual Behavior, To Organized Activities, To Systematic Corruption

                    The international community is already aware of China's rampant corruption. Because China is one of several countries that maintains a strict information blockade, “Transparency International” has not been approved to conduct any studies. So, how serious might the corruption in China be? And what kind of terrible effect will it have on China’s future? The international community still does not have a clear picture.

                    My upcoming series of articles on this topic try to answer the following questions:

                    China’s political corruption and its relationship to its social system;
                    The areas where corruption happens most frequently and the forms corruption takes;

                    The abominable effect which corruption is bringing to China's future;
                    How the Chinese government continues to strengthen its control of Chinese society.

                    The Nature of China’s Corruption at Different Stages

                    As early as 1999, I had written an article describing how China had become systematically corrupt during the middle of the 1990s. Since China’s economic reforms began, corruption in China has become gradually entrenched: During the 1980s and the early 1990s the main form of corruption was only individual corruption. A typical example is the story of Yan Jianhong, the general manager of Guizhou International Trust and Investment, who embezzled billions and was later executed.

                    Around 1995, corruption in China developed from individual behavior to organized activities. Characteristics of “organized corruption” are as follows:

                    • Leaders of social organizations (government departments, state-owned companies, etc.) took the lead in corruption;
                    • Authorities coerce private businessmen to engage in “money for power exchanges,” by withholding access to public resources;
                    • Lower level government or company officials use the public resources under their control to bribe high level officials, in order to get more financial support, or more favorable policies.

                    The best examples of “organized corruption” are the People’s Liberation Army (PLA), whose generals organized an international smuggling ring. One general, General Fhang Wei, was indicted by an U.S. grand jury. Fhang's boss, General Zuang Rushun, the deputy director of the PSB, was executed following a quick trial on corruption charges.

                    Since 1998, corruption in China started to transform from organized corruption to systematic corruption.

                    Corruption has gone into every organization of the political system, industry and commerce. The tax department, financial sector, land resource management, education system, public health system are the most corrupt departments.

                    A typical example of the systematic corruption is the selling of government positions, which was once rare in China, but now is happening in many areas.

                    From a certain point of view, anti-corruption has become a tool in political struggles and a way for certain officials to monopolize profits. In Ruian City (Wenzhou District, Zhejiang Provice), one gangster used evidence of a local government official’s corruption and to gain some control of the local politics and economy of Ruian City.

                    In recent years, the Organization Department in the Central Committee of the Communist Party of China (CCCPC) has gone into the stage of controlling human resources by making use of official’s privacy. The so-called “Anti-Corruption Campaign” has shown more and more of it’s true color when it strikes down political dissidents. Typical cases are the “clean-out” of Zhu Xiaohua (former Chairman and President of China Everbright Group) and Wang Xuebing (former Chairman and President of the Bank of China) who were believed to belong to Former PM Zhu Rongji’s group. It is more accurate to say they have been cleaned out under the charge of anti-corruption rather than corruption.

                    Because corruption has gone into many departments, officials who tried to keep themselves clean would be pushed out because they blocked other people’s way towards wealth. It is a common understanding in China now: All officials take money; things can be done only with money. This kind of social recognition shows the public value in Chinese society has been twisted severely. Sometimes, the Chinese government traded with criminals in order to keep high level official’s corruption covered up. The best example is the trade done by Yang Rong, Director of HuaChen Group, in August 2002 (Yang Rong is also in the 2002 China Forbes list).

                    By exercising control through the invasion of official’s privacy, and by using “anti-corruption” campaigns to clean-out political dissidents, finally, the current political group has glued itself together nicely so to enjoy great profits. Under these circumstances, any anti-corruption law will never make any ground on corruption itself, it can only prevent the political elite group from splitting, and encourage each of them to stop the formation of any opposition.

                    In recent years, the voice for political reform has been reduced among the political elite. This is because officials widely accept corruption, and money-for-power exchanges have become common, thus reducing conflicts within the political system. All political forces have reached a consensus about corruption, that is, maintaining the current situation and political system is good for all currently in power.

                    China's evolving corruption is similar to what happened in South American and South Asian countries. Although on the surface China has a different political system to those countries, the core is the same, that is—those in power are above the law. In China, corrupt rich people are holding both the greatest wealth and the most power in society, but the source of their wealth is unclear. Most Chinese citizens are in doubt about the legitimacy of their wealth and condemn them from a moral standpoint.

                    In the 1950s, the uneven distribution of wealth in China was caused by many years of market competition. The current uneven distribution of wealth was shaped by corruption and power. So it cannot pass the scrutiny of social ethics.

                    The Epoch Times | The Evolution of Corruption in China- Part 1
                    Last edited by Ray; 26 Jun 08,, 12:05.


                    "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

                    I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

                    HAKUNA MATATA

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Ray, you cannot preach to the mainland chinese; they have their lil red book that tells them what to think, and when to think it. Happiness is in the collective good, run by the collective mind, for the collective bosses. Chinese people are only now coming to terms with the quaint phrase, freedom of speech, via their government allowing them access to the web. Its going to take their collective thinking a couple of generations to catch up with us.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Le séminaire du 02/11/2004



                        Urban - Rural Divide in China : Some Empirical Evidence


                        by Li Shi

                        On Nov. 2nd, Professor Li Shi (李实) of the Institute of Economics of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences ( Peking ) gave a talk at the Centre. Prof. Li Shi publications include China's Retreat from Equality: Income Distribution and Economic Transition (with Carl Riskin and Zhao Renwei , M.E. Sharpe: New York , 2001). Back to the early 1950s, the income gap between urban and rural households was much smaller compared to today. It began to rise due to the institutional changes implemented by the new Communist regime, and especially the hukou system that prohibited labor mobility and population migration. Later, during the Cultural Revolution, the gap grew larger because of the strict regulation on grains circulation and price policy in rural areas and the industrialization in urban areas. Things changed in the early 1980s. The spread-out of the rural reform and the rapid development of the township and village enterprises (TVEs) led to a narrowing income gap. The urban-rural ratio declined from 2,56 in 1978 to 1,71 in 1984. However, since the mid-1980s, because of the pricing policy on agricultural products and the speed-up in urban reform and foreign direct investments (FDI), that are mainly concentrated in the urban coastal China , the income gap started again to grow. In between though, there was a short period, between 1995-1997, during which the income gap fell down, mainly due the to the rise of the prices on agricultural products: the ratio came down to 2,47 in 1997. But since 1997, the income gap has constantly widened and it reached its highest level ever in history last year. In 2003, the ratio was 3,23. Not only the income gap widened, but also consumption expenditure between urban and rural households followed the same pattern. Professor Li Shi provided numerous data based on his team's extensive filed work and surveys in order to show other aspects of the urban and rural divide, such as the gap in education attainment, health care expenditure and social security. What is most striking is that the income support program (dibao) from the central and local governments are fully implemented in the urban areas, whereas the rural poor receive almost nothing. There are several reasons that explain the urban-rural divide. The prices of agricultural products and the government restrictive policy on rural-urban migration are the first two main reasons. It is also due to the regressivity of the tax system in rural areas. Another reason is that public expenditure is favorable to urban areas. Finally, according to Prof. Li, if the peasants had more political power, the gap between rural and urban China would not be that large. This latter remark led Prof. Li to suggest some policy changes in order to remedy to the current situation. First, he is in favor of the removal of all barriers (institutional and physical) that are now preventing the urban-rural migration and rural migrants should be given equal opportunities and rights in terms of employment, income determination, social protection, and education. Prof. Li is also in favor of the abolishment of all types of taxes and fees collected from rural households. The Chinese government has already announced that it would do so within the next five years, but Prof. Li thinks that it is possible to implement it within two years. Thirdly, the anti-poverty program should target more the rural poor (the funds allocated to those programs should not be used by local government officials to renew their offices and purchase new cars, as it is too often the case). Fourthly, the central government should improve its capacity to intervene and help the rural poor in case of natural disasters, such as floods. The central government should also take full responsibility for compulsory education and basic health care in the rural areas. Finally, Prof. Li would like to see more political rights for rural residents. In 2004, the income gap decreased a little bit, as the government started to implement some of the policies cited above. But Prof. Li thinks that the current efforts are not significant enough and that this trend may not last.
                        CEFC - Séminaire, Urban - Rural Divide in China : Some Empirical Evidence

                        Comments of a PRC economist.


                        "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

                        I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

                        HAKUNA MATATA

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          The Evolution of Corruption in China
                          Urban - Rural Divide in China : Some Empirical Evidence

                          what they said was right. But one thing those dissidents really disappointed me is that they never give out practical solution.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Professor Li Shi (李实) of the Institute of Economics of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences ( Peking ) is a dissident?


                            "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

                            I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

                            HAKUNA MATATA

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Ok, not dissidents.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Elbmek,

                                What you say is right.

                                Of course, I will concede that it takes more than a generation for any people to change their views, but it is worthwhile to understand how others tick.

                                China is an interesting subject since it is different from the world. It is even more different that the USSR owing to their very interesting and complex history that gave rise to many a phenomenon that is different from the world.

                                The issue of Tibet and Xinjiang and China is an interesting subject for analysis since these are two totally different peoples who are holding out against being assimilated by the Han culture, which in itself is an exciting and vast canvas.

                                Why I say assimilated by the Han culture?

                                It is said that the Manhcus were assimilated by the Han Culture, even though the Hans were ruled by the Manchus (Qing Dynasty).

                                And yet, there is a school of thought that suggests that China's 1911-12 Revolution is primarily a change in governmental style, from imperial to republican, traditional to modern. But given that the dynasty that was overthrown-the Qing-was that of a minority ethnic group that had ruled China's Han majority for nearly three centuries, and that the revolutionaries were overwhelmingly Han, to what extent was the revolution not only anti-monarchical, but also anti-Manchu?

                                The interesting aspect that is of contemporary interest is the fate of the Manchus in Machukuo, is strikingly similar to what is happening in Tibet and Xinjaing. The Manchus were reduced to a minority in Manchukuo through the Han migration and they were forced to accept the Han culture.

                                It is said that except for the Xibes in Xinjaing and a very elderly people in the North, the Manchus have forgotten their language.

                                Similar is the process in action in Tibet and Xinjiang where beyond a certain level, the medium of instruction is in Mandarin. It is no secret that there is a full throated drive to debunk the Dalai Lama and Tibetan Buddhism as is in Xinjaing, which I mentioned in the other thread.


                                "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

                                I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

                                HAKUNA MATATA

                                Comment

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