Why do Aussies and Kiwis hold grudges about Douglas MacArthur?

[Officer of Engineers]

I disagree even further than that. Slim broke the Imperial Japanese Empire. Once he opened up the Burma Road, Japan lost any chance of taking China and without China, the IJE was doomed.

[Blademaster]

What is the Burma Road and how valuable was it to China and Allies?

[Officer of Engineers]

It was a weapons and ammo pipeline to China. It ensured that 75% of the IJA and half its air force ain't going nowhere. On top of that, 4 Chinese Divisions were used to blast that road opened, showing that Japan was not going to beat the Chinese in the long run.

[Blademaster]

Is it still in use?

[Officer of Engineers]

Only as a cocain smuggling pipeline

[JAD_333]

Mac's grandstanding aside, he was a military genius with an uncanny eye for grand strategy. Few great generals have flawless careers. But my impression from reading about his relations with Austrailia was that they were overall pretty good. Austrailian resentments over his assessments of their capabilities at the time may exist, but they beg the question whether he was correct at the time. At least he never insinuated they were cowards. I would think Aussi's would have far greater resentment for remarks their own top general made:

Later, Blamey addressed the men of the 21st Infantry Brigade on a parade ground. Maroubra Force expected congratulations for their efforts in holding back the Japanese. However, instead of praising them, Blamey told the brigade that they had been "beaten" by inferior forces, and that "no soldier should be afraid to die". "Remember," Blamey was reported as saying, "it's the rabbit who runs who gets shot, not the man holding the gun." There was a wave of murmurs and restlessness among the soldiers. Officers and senior NCOs managed to quiet the soldiers and many later said that Blamey was lucky to escape with his life. Later that day, during a march-past parade, many disobeyed the "eyes right" order. In a later letter to his wife, an enraged Brigadier Potts swore to "fry his [Blamey's] soul in the afterlife" over this incident. According to witnesses, when Blamey subsequently visited Australian wounded in the camp hospital, inmates nibbled lettuce, while wrinkling their noses and whispering "run, rabbit, run" (the chorus of a popular song during the war).[15]

[Albert1981]

You are quite right. Mac never said the Australians were cowards, but that their performance was not up to snuff. I guess Mac had standards of bravery that he himself lived up to in the Philippines at the start of the 20th century, in the Vera Cruz Expedition and in the Great War.

[Officer of Engineers]

Mac's grandstanding aside, he was a military genius with an uncanny eye for grand strategy.

Didn't see the Chinese coming and certainly misread them all the way past Seoul.

[JAD_333]

Didn't see the Chinese coming and certainly misread them all the way past Seoul.

As I said, "Few great generals have flawless careers."

But to be clear; Mac knew the Chinese had approx 300K troops on their side of the border and he had the opinion of top US foreign polcy experts and highly classified reports from the CIA saying the Chinese would not attack.

The Chinese pushed UN forces back south of Soeul, but the retreat was tactical on Ridgeway's part, with Mac's blessing, to buy time for a build up to retake the offensive, which eventually came and was successful. In time, the Chinese withdrew across the 38th parallel.

IMO, we should have fought to win.

[Officer of Engineers]

As I said, "Few great generals have flawless careers."

But to be clear; Mac knew the Chinese had approx 300K troops on their side of the border and he had the opinion of top US foreign polcy experts and highly classified reports from the CIA saying the Chinese would not attack.

The Chinese pushed UN forces back south of Soeul, but the retreat was tactical on Ridgeway's part, with Mac's blessing, to buy time for a build up to retake the offensive, which eventually came and was successful. In time, the Chinese withdrew across the 38th parallel.

IMO, we should have fought to win.

Well, that's the 2nd part he read wrong. The Chinese was exhausted even long before they got past the 38th. They surrounded 8th Army no less than 6 times with the last attempt being a company size blocking force. The 8th broke through everytime.

The initial Chinese success was due in no small part to the 4 Artillery Divisions that they had so masterfully deployed. However, in trying to destroy 8th Army, the Chinese had to leave the guns behind in an attempt to outrace the 8th.

Seriously, if Mac had turned around, he would've destroyed 2 Chinese armies and won the war right there and then.

[JAD_333]

Seriously, if Mac had turned around, he would've destroyed 2 Chinese armies and won the war right there and then.

That's interesting. Did he have the troops to do it? I know they were chewing up the Chinese with artillery and air, but could they have turned before they did?

[clackers]

I admit I am a Douglas MacArthur partisan. I have been a fan of his for years, and have read a great deal about this fascinating individual. I find it tremendously amusing that the Australians and New Zealanders are still peeved about MacArthur for making comments that did not flatter them.

Are Aussies really any more disenchanted than others who had to deal him with continually, Albert?

This is from pp205-206 of the excellent "A War To Be Won: Fighting the Second World War" ... the authors Murray and Millet are both American:

MacArthur's staff, dominated by the so-called Corregidor Gang, tried to convince themselves and others that MacArthur was a military genius. Some people believed it, but many did not. MacArthur's paranoia, lust for personal publicity, political ambition, structured and comfortable life-style, and hypochondria were well known in the army. One of his intimates said that MacArthur hated funerals and hospitals and avoided them at all cost. In World War I, he had refused to wear a gas mask (and was gassed twice) because of claustrophobic panic, not bravado. His emotional balance was precarious. These personal foibles, which made George Patton look normal, diverted attention from what should have been the real issue: MacArthur's professional military competence. His erratic performance in the Phillipines should have led to his relief and retirement, but, instead, the Medal of Honor and a flood of media attention, encouraged by Roosevelt, diverted attention from America's military disasters. Then, having created a monster, FDR and the Joint Chiefs had to live with MacArthur and his powerful friends.

Of the senior commanders in the Pacific, MacArthur was the least qualified, on strict military criteria, to play a major role. He had spent his first 14 years in the army as an engineer. In World War I he had served as a division chief of staff, as commander of an infantry brigade, and, for two weeks with no combat, as an acting division commander. After five months of battle in France, MacArthur saw no field service again, and his premature generalship and assignments cut him off from the rigorous professional military education of the interwar years. He was a general-impresario, a man most given to geopolitcal lecturing, not generalship.

Part of the function of MacArthur's staff was to keep his morale up. But another important piece of their mission was to protect their general from people (including newspaper reporters) who might discover his superficial grasp of operational and technical details. His subordinate generals and admirals received only broad guidance - a leadership technique which worked at times and not at others, especially if operations soured. Army aviation flourished in this uncertainty, but the navy, army, and the Australians found their supreme commander a heavy burden.

[captain]

Mac's grandstanding aside, he was a military genius with an uncanny eye for grand strategy. Few great generals have flawless careers. But my impression from reading about his relations with Austrailia was that they were overall pretty good. Austrailian resentments over his assessments of their capabilities at the time may exist, but they beg the question whether he was correct at the time. At least he never insinuated they were cowards. I would think Aussi's would have far greater resentment for remarks their own top general made:

Your are right.

Blamey and the other senior staff did not have much of an idea about jungle warfare, nor what he was asking the troops to do given the terrain and the fact that most of the troops were reservists/militia.

It was not until a latter era that Australian troops were given specific jungle warfare training at the insistance of Brigadier Ted Serong.

Cheers.

[Lunatock]

ANZACs also continue to harp on the fact that they were the first force in the Pacific campaign in World War II to defeat a Japanese land invasion. They still get mad because MacArthur called ANZAC victories as "Allied victories" as opposed to Australian and New Zealander victories. Is that not being a little petty and small?

Didn't the soviets swarm all over an IJA incursion into Russia first?

[BudW]

Didn't see the Chinese coming and certainly misread them all the way past Seoul.

Who did see them comming?