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  • #46
    If I have done this once I have done it a thousand times...

    "we'll start with the MiG-29M fighter, the MiG-29M fighter are basically new aircraft, longer range, state-of-the-art equipment, fourfold redundant, three-channel, fly-by-wire system, which is equivalent to the fourfold redundant system used on the F-22, as well as higher weapon load"

    Me I don't like to talk about stuff which has no entered service. You don't know about a plane until at the very least it enters service and gets to see some action. If the MiG-29 had never been shot down over Iraq, Serbia and Eritrea we would be hearing who deadly it is and how it is so much better then Western planes. The allure ended once people saw they did not preform as adverstied by the Russians. The Iraqis had found that out earlier in 1988 when the MiG-29s failed to catch F-4D/Es laden with bombs. I'm sure in 1989 no one could have guessed the plane would get that bad of a combat record wouldn't you say?

    So you might want to wait until the MiG-29M has done something before comparing it to anything.

    "Tronic is obviously talking about a hypothetical situation, can't you understand that"

    I dislike hypothetical situations as few have much merit when you get down to things. Labrotory tests and simulations don't mean terribly much.

    "well, the MiG-29M can fire the RVV-AE BVR missile which has a range of 150km max"

    The only R-77 that is in service is the R-77E which has a 31 mile or so range.

    " i know i will face some sharp criticism here because over half of the people here are Americans and will support their aircraft to the very end like Troung here"

    You have no idea were I come from and we should keep it that way.

    " you can also point out to who they were delivered to, 1st world industrialized nations such as Western Europe and Oil Rich Middle East nations, and Japan, other than those places, there aren't many other locations that have bought the F-16, Chile, yes, Poland, thats central europe, but the fact is, that all these nations have A LOT OF MONEY and, their ties with America make a good percentage of their economy"

    They have the money and want a good plane that kind of finishes the agruement wouldn't you say?

    "of course they're going to choose this aircraft over the MiG-29, now, nations that are industrializing or developing such as India, China, Malaysia etc. since they don't have as much money, they like to conserve, and need a plane that is rugged, and able to operate in any conditions, which is why they buy the MiG"

    I would hardly call the MiG-29 rugged. Most of the users bought it because it was cheap (the Russians gave it away to Iraq and Serbia to cover thier own debts). One only has to look at the massive problems so many of the users had after buying the planes. Iran bought 4 and planned to buy no more because of what they thought of the plane. Serbia had wanted Mirage 2000s but only got the MiG-29 as a stop gap for a domestic plane.

    Iraq would have had Mirage 2000s but the Russians sold the MiG-29s dirt cheap. After the Iran Iraq war the Iraqis planned to buy the Mirage 2000 as thier top fighter and use the MiG-29 as a MiG-23M/MF/ML replacement. Burma fired an air force commander because he said that MiG-29s were no match for RTAF F-16s. Peru got it in a non tender as in the government simply purchased them and there were all types of allegations of kick backs.

    Malasyia due to badly running an arms race got them in a short sighted buy to try and play numbers, numbers they still failed to make work compared to the RSAF and its large F-16C/D fleet. Romania ditched thiers and are looking for a western fighter so did the Czechs. Other Eastern European nations are having a hard time keeping them flying not as much for money because the plane is not user friendly. Syria got it because they had no other choice, the same with the Sudan, Yemen and Eritrea.

    So even these poorer nations still want better but finances and politics stop them from getting better equipment.

    "now reliability terms, the MiG-29 is much more reliable and rugged than the F-16, FACT have you ever seen an F-16 go off a dirt runway, well probably yes, but caused some structural damage, MiG-29's do it all the time"

    Actually not. The filters were taken out because they added in wieght.

    "but, ome important things, MiG's dowing US and NATO aircraft, i'll give you the links later because the site doesn't work right now damage downed culprit date
    destroyed F-16C MiG-29 March 26 destroyed F-15E MiG-29 March 26
    the kills above are confirmed kills, the kills that i am about to state are unconfirmed kills by news agencies, but confirmed kills by residents that watched"

    Serbian MiG-29s failed to shoot down a single plane. The only 4th generation plane a MiG-29 ever shot down was another MiG-29 the rest have been a few older model Russian planes and a cessna.
    Last edited by troung; 30 Jan 05,, 05:33.
    To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by troung
      "we'll start with the MiG-29M fighter, the MiG-29M fighter are basically new aircraft, longer range, state-of-the-art equipment, fourfold redundant, three-channel, fly-by-wire system, which is equivalent to the fourfold redundant system used on the F-22, as well as higher weapon load"

      Me I don't like to talk about stuff which has no entered service. You don't know about a plane until at the very least it enters service and gets to see some action. If the MiG-29 had never been shot down over Iraq, Serbia and Eritrea we would be hearing who deadly it is and how it is so much better then Western planes. The allure ended once people saw they did not preform as adverstied by the Russians. The Iraqis had found that out earlier in 1988 when the MiG-29s failed to catch F-4D/Es laden with bombs. I'm sure in 1989 no one could have guessed the plane would get that bad of a combat record wouldn't you say?

      So you might want to wait until the MiG-29M has done something before comparing it to anything.

      "Tronic is obviously talking about a hypothetical situation, can't you understand that"

      I dislike hypothetical situations as few have much merit when you get down to things.

      "well, the MiG-29M can fire the RVV-AE BVR missile which has a range of 150km max"

      The only R-77 that is in service is the R-77E which has a 31 mile or so range.

      " i know i will face some sharp criticism here because over half of the people here are Americans and will support their aircraft to the very end like Troung here"

      You have no idea were I come from and we should keep it that way.

      " you can also point out to who they were delivered to, 1st world industrialized nations such as Western Europe and Oil Rich Middle East nations, and Japan, other than those places, there aren't many other locations that have bought the F-16, Chile, yes, Poland, thats central europe, but the fact is, that all these nations have A LOT OF MONEY and, their ties with America make a good percentage of their economy"

      They have the money and want a good plane that kind of finishes the agruement wouldn't you say?

      "of course they're going to choose this aircraft over the MiG-29, now, nations that are industrializing or developing such as India, China, Malaysia etc. since they don't have as much money, they like to conserve, and need a plane that is rugged, and able to operate in any conditions, which is why they buy the MiG"

      I would hardly call the MiG-29 rugged. Most of the users bought it because it was cheap (the Russians gave it away to Iraq and Serbia to cover thier own debts). One only has to look at the massive problems so many of the users had after buying the planes. Iran bought 4 and planned to buy no more because of what they thought of the plane. Serbia had wanted Mirage 2000s but only got the MiG-29 as a stop gap for a domestic plane.

      Iraq would have had Mirage 2000s but the Russians sold the MiG-29s dirt cheap. After the Iran Iraq war the Iraqis planned to buy the Mirage 2000 as thier top fighter and use the MiG-29 as a MiG-23M/MF/ML replacement. Burma fired an air force commander because he said that MiG-29s were no match for RTAF F-16s. Peru got it in a non tender as in the government simply purchased them and there were all types of allegations of kick backs.

      Malasyia due to badly running an arms race got them in a short sighted buy to try and play numbers, numbers they still failed to make work compared to the RSAF and its large F-16C/D fleet. Romania ditched thiers and are looking for a western fighter so did the Czechs. Other Eastern European nations are having a hard time keeping them flying not as much for money because the plane is not user friendly. Syria got it because they had no other choice, the same with the Sudan, Yemen and Eritrea.

      So even these poorer nations still want better but finances and politics stop them from getting better equipment.

      "now reliability terms, the MiG-29 is much more reliable and rugged than the F-16, FACT have you ever seen an F-16 go off a dirt runway, well probably yes, but caused some structural damage, MiG-29's do it all the time"

      Actually not. The filters were taken out because they added in wieght.

      "but, ome important things, MiG's dowing US and NATO aircraft, i'll give you the links later because the site doesn't work right now damage downed culprit date
      destroyed F-16C MiG-29 March 26 destroyed F-15E MiG-29 March 26
      the kills above are confirmed kills, the kills that i am about to state are unconfirmed kills by news agencies, but confirmed kills by residents that watched"

      Serbian MiG-29s failed to shoot down a single plane. The only 4th generation plane a MiG-29 ever shot down was another MiG-29 the rest have been a few older model Russian planes and a cessna.

      do you get penalties for quoting large amounts at one time?, because you got points deductions at abovetopsecret.com

      okay, let me see, i guess that it can obviously be seen that you are an extreme anti-russianist

      1.first thing, in your first paragraph, i did not deny that MiG-29's were shot down, sooo, whats the point of what you said? oh so you don't like hypothetical situations, okay, but,i can point out that your posts in the LCA topic, where you compare the LCA with the Gripen, well, that is a hypothetical situation because you don't know much about the LCA, yet, you are doing the same thing that i am, so...............

      2.according to this, the R-77E is not the only R-77 variant that is used
      http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Ai...iles/R-77.html
      the RVV-AE is in use, a total of 150 RVV-AE missiles were bouhgt by the Indian government(30 in 1999 and 120 in 200)

      3.have you heard of the MiG-25's taking down the F-15's?, lte me see if i can find the link now, i read the article a long time ago
      http://www.zap16.com/mil%20fact/f-15.htm
      well, i'm having trouble finding the link here, but in this link, Gulf War, it says that two F-15E Eagles were lost in the Gulf War, i'll keep looking, at the very bottom, it also says that during Iraqi Freedom, one F-15E was shot down, wait, let me keep looking.......shoot, sorry man, i can't fnid the article anymore, anyways, have you heard the reports by any chance?

      4.http://aeroweb.lucia.it/~agretch/RAFAQ/AAMs.html
      here's a bunch of guys talking about whether the R-77 will be as good as the AMRAAM, its rather wuite interesting

      5."They have the money and want a good plane that kind of finishes the agruement wouldn't you say? " so are you implying that the MiG 29 isn't a good plane? because if you do, then you fail to see the merits of other aircraft, that is just sad, come on, be happier, i've seen your posts on other sites
      troung
      http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/arc...php/t-112.html

      the second post on the page, that's truly sad if you think that badly about a plane that would destroy the F-16 in WVR

      6.where are you gettting this junk from, if Iran thought so badly about the MiG coporation, then why would they team up with them to help create the subsonic stealth attack aircraft, Shafagh, Russia gave it away to Iraq and Serbia, to pay off debts, Russia having debts to Iraq and Serbia, you have it the wrong way around, they sold them, fair and square, can you provide me a link, maybe if it is credible, i'll believe you

      Massive problems huh, just like the time that Lockheed got sued because 400 F-16 aircraft had hairline cracks in them, and because of engine problems, buddy, the only significant problem that Russia had with delivering MiG fighters to a country was India in the early 90's, but that was a manufacturing problem with the engines, it was the manufactuers fault, they fixed it later and dlivered them again

      the Iraqi situation, and Burma/Myanmar situation, please elaborate and find some links for me thanks

      i highly doubt the Iraqi situation because Iraq, only had strong ties with Western Europe in the 70's and early 80's, and they weren't even strong, they had stronger ties with America, it doesn't make sense, but if you can prove it, maybe, who knows

      :) Peru? well, i'll say my thoughts later on, i' also have something to add on the Malaysia situationhttp://www.fas.org/MHonArc/AT-doc_archive/msg00006.html
      if i were Malaysia, i would also choose the MiG-29's for that price, thats amazing, an aircraft that is on par or superior to the F-16 for even lower, well i the link, they compare it to the F/A-18

      the Romanian's ditched theirs(i am 25% Romanian) they didn't, they are upgrading thier MiG-29 to SNIPER variant which utilizes Israeli avionics

      about the filters thingy, hahaha

      http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/mig29/

      they don't use filters, the air intakes are closed and the air is fed throuhg the louvres on the upper surface of the wing root to prevent ingestion of foreign objects, their not filters, they're louvres

      Serbian MiGs failed to shoot down a single plane, well, did you get that from CNN or CTV, you have to watch the Russian stuff, the Chinese stuff, the French stuff, other news agencies around the world, you cannot trust American news agencies, they disgust me so much i can't watch CNN or ABC anymore, for the lack of information they present, and only a one-sided view of a situation, a view that shows America as the liberator, haha

      now, take this into account, if the MiG-29 was such a horribly bad aircraft as you describe it, why would other nations purchase it instead of the F-16 or F-18, sure, you might say that it was sold for dirt cheap, but in the modern world, quality almost always comes out on top of quantity(unless they are severly and savagely outmanned and outgunned, like the Yugoslav's) so, the fact of the matter is that nations choose the MiG-29 over the F-16, because the aircraft suits the purpose that they were looking to be fulfilled better than the opposition

      also, i hope that you are aware that America is prepared to hold sanctions against any european nation that acquires Russian aircraft, which shows, how desperate they are to advertize their F-16, they even put pressure on Israel to cancel their Lavi project, and put pressure on Japan in accepting the F-2, they were originally going to make a new aircraft for themselves, anyways thats all, can you provide me some links on these allegations that you made against Russia and how they "forced" nations to purchase their weaponry, and the nations had "no" other choice, goodnight everybody
      for MOTHER MOLDOVA

      Comment


      • #48
        “do you get penalties for quoting large amounts at one time?, because you got points deductions at abovetopsecret.com”

        Huh?

        ”okay, let me see, i guess that it can obviously be seen that you are an extreme anti-russianist”

        No I am just really fukking sick of these goddamn lame MiG-29 vs. F-16 topics that people put up just so they can hope to feel good about themselves and the nation they come from and the goddamn plane it happens to fly… and FYI "russianist" is not a real word....

        ”have you heard of the MiG-25's taking down the F-15's?, lte me see if i can find the link now, i read the article a long time ago”

        Never happened but F-15s have shot down MiG-25s.

        “well, i'm having trouble finding the link here, but in this link, Gulf War, it says that two F-15E Eagles were lost in the Gulf War, i'll keep looking, at the very bottom, it also says that during Iraqi Freedom, one F-15E was shot down, wait, let me keep looking.......shoot, sorry man, i can't fnid the article anymore, anyways, have you heard the reports by any chance?”

        Wow ground fire… to bad none of these smily faces is clapping or I would put it there so it could make a clapping motion for you...

        “Russia gave it away to Iraq and Serbia, to pay off debts, Russia having debts to Iraq and Serbia, you have it the wrong way around, they sold them, fair and square, can you provide me a link, maybe if it is credible, i'll believe you”

        You posted this link…. (good move)

        http://www.fas.org/MHonArc/AT-doc_archive/msg00006.html

        "And we are ready to consider any form of payment," Zotov says. The Russian arms industry is skilled in clinching barter deals from the old Soviet days when equipment was supplied to countries as far-flung as the Middle East and Africa. In Europe, Russia still owes millions dollars to a number of its former Warsaw Pact allies, including Hungary. Budapest has already accepted MIG-29s in 1994 in barter for debt settlement, and the others might be tempted to do the same.”

        OMG the Russians also supplied South Korea T-80Us and BMP-3s to cover their debts. They offered Austria the MiG-29SMT in exchange for debts but the Austrians went for the more expensive EF-2000....

        ”i highly doubt the Iraqi situation because Iraq, only had strong ties with Western Europe in the 70's and early 80's, and they weren't even strong, they had stronger ties with America, it doesn't make sense, but if you can prove it, maybe, who knows”

        You highly doubt? Even though you just said they only had strong ties with Western Europe in the 1970s… ever wonder what the most capable BVR missile the Iraqis ever had was and where it came from and when?

        ”if i were Malaysia, i would also choose the MiG-29's for that price, thats amazing, an aircraft that is on par or superior to the F-16 for even lower, well i the link, they compare it to the F/A-18”

        It’s pretty much a given the RSAF is a far more combat ready force then the RMAF. Their MiG-29 was almost as far sighted as their mechanized infantry units with 4 by 4 wheeled cars... for jungle warfare...

        ”Serbian MiGs failed to shoot down a single plane, well, did you get that from CNN or CTV, you have to watch the Russian stuff, the Chinese stuff, the French stuff, other news agencies around the world, you cannot trust American news agencies, they disgust me so much i can't watch CNN or ABC anymore, for the lack of information they present, and only a one-sided view of a situation, a view that shows America as the liberator”

        Ok so you’re a goof on the news bit… and Serbian Airplanes did not shoot down any NATO plane.

        ”now, take this into account, if the MiG-29 was such a horribly bad aircraft as you describe it, why would other nations purchase it instead of the F-16 or F-18”

        Because those nations cannot get better. It's all about money and who is in bed with who...

        “like the Yugoslav's) so, the fact of the matter is that nations choose the MiG-29 over the F-16, because the aircraft suits the purpose that they were looking to be fulfilled better than the opposition”

        Only one nation which could have seriously gotten the F-16 uses the MiG-29 and that nation was faced by 3 F-16 users already with larger fleets of F-16s then they were even looking at. And that nation has a habit of rather short sighted defense purchases on top of that.

        ”also, i hope that you are aware that America is prepared to hold sanctions against any european nation that acquires Russian aircraft, which shows, how desperate they are to advertize their F-16”

        So where are the sanctions on Greece for buying the Mirage 2000, on the Czech/Hungarians for buying the JAS-39, were are the sanctions on Austria for buying the EF-2000? Why haven’t we put sanctions on the UK, Germany, Spain and Italy for “daring” to build the EF-2000? And why haven’t we nuked the French for the Mirage?

        “they even put pressure on Israel to cancel their Lavi project”

        The Lavi was done on the money of American taxpayers, America simply cut our end of the funding.

        “the Iraqi situation, and Burma/Myanmar situation, please elaborate and find some links for me thanks”

        http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_346.shtml

        Another reason for many officers resigning was the purchase of the MiG-29s. Most of the higher officers of the TL were against the purchase of the MiG-29s from Russia, and instead wanted the TL to get Mirage 2000s or Su-27. This finally caused - just for example - a fierce quarrel between the CO of the Wing stationed at Meikhtila and his superiors. He was explaining that MiGs - which were initially built for Iraq - cost too much for no worth in exchange, and were sitting over ten years in storage. Besides, so he supposedly said, MiG-29s couldn't match Thai F-16s. As "thanks" for his advises, he was relieved of command, demoted and transferred to the Myitkyina AB. He then protested and resigned too.

        ----

        For the Iraq part please read Air War in the Iran Iraq War by Tom Cooper… it has an excellent section which goes through the problems the IrAF had with the RD-33s, R-27R, N-019 and other "goodies" on the planes...

        “can you provide me some links on these allegations that you made against Russia and how they "forced" nations to purchase their weaponry, and the nations had "no" other choice”

        Syria/Eritrea/Sudan/Yemen for example could not and still cannot buy a western fighter.

        I’m just too damn lazy to school you in the politics of global arms dealings…

        Imma go have another beer....
        To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

        Comment


        • #49
          Dima, the F-15 has NEVER been shot down in any air-to-air enagagement, anywhere, period. Not US, not Israeli, not Saudi. NOT EVER. I don't care what you might've read on the Internet, it is absolutely NOT TRUE.
          Last edited by Bluesman; 30 Jan 05,, 07:36.

          Comment


          • #50
            And what's with you getting booted out of so many fora, pal? Can you just save us all the trouble, and leave this one on your own, NOW? It sounds like it would be a unique experience for you, Dima.

            Comment


            • #51
              The F-15 has an air-to-air kill ratio of infinity.

              That's am be da facts.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Dima
                do you get penalties for quoting large amounts at one time?, because you got points deductions at abovetopsecret.com

                okay, let me see, i guess that it can obviously be seen that you are an extreme anti-russianist

                1.first thing, in your first paragraph, i did not deny that MiG-29's were shot down, sooo, whats the point of what you said? oh so you don't like hypothetical situations, okay, but,i can point out that your posts in the LCA topic, where you compare the LCA with the Gripen, well, that is a hypothetical situation because you don't know much about the LCA, yet, you are doing the same thing that i am, so...............

                2.according to this, the R-77E is not the only R-77 variant that is used
                http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Ai...iles/R-77.html
                the RVV-AE is in use, a total of 150 RVV-AE missiles were bouhgt by the Indian government(30 in 1999 and 120 in 200)

                3.have you heard of the MiG-25's taking down the F-15's?, lte me see if i can find the link now, i read the article a long time ago
                http://www.zap16.com/mil%20fact/f-15.htm
                well, i'm having trouble finding the link here, but in this link, Gulf War, it says that two F-15E Eagles were lost in the Gulf War, i'll keep looking, at the very bottom, it also says that during Iraqi Freedom, one F-15E was shot down, wait, let me keep looking.......shoot, sorry man, i can't fnid the article anymore, anyways, have you heard the reports by any chance?

                4.http://aeroweb.lucia.it/~agretch/RAFAQ/AAMs.html
                here's a bunch of guys talking about whether the R-77 will be as good as the AMRAAM, its rather wuite interesting

                5."They have the money and want a good plane that kind of finishes the agruement wouldn't you say? " so are you implying that the MiG 29 isn't a good plane? because if you do, then you fail to see the merits of other aircraft, that is just sad, come on, be happier, i've seen your posts on other sites
                troung
                http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/arc...php/t-112.html

                the second post on the page, that's truly sad if you think that badly about a plane that would destroy the F-16 in WVR

                6.where are you gettting this junk from, if Iran thought so badly about the MiG coporation, then why would they team up with them to help create the subsonic stealth attack aircraft, Shafagh, Russia gave it away to Iraq and Serbia, to pay off debts, Russia having debts to Iraq and Serbia, you have it the wrong way around, they sold them, fair and square, can you provide me a link, maybe if it is credible, i'll believe you

                Massive problems huh, just like the time that Lockheed got sued because 400 F-16 aircraft had hairline cracks in them, and because of engine problems, buddy, the only significant problem that Russia had with delivering MiG fighters to a country was India in the early 90's, but that was a manufacturing problem with the engines, it was the manufactuers fault, they fixed it later and dlivered them again

                the Iraqi situation, and Burma/Myanmar situation, please elaborate and find some links for me thanks

                i highly doubt the Iraqi situation because Iraq, only had strong ties with Western Europe in the 70's and early 80's, and they weren't even strong, they had stronger ties with America, it doesn't make sense, but if you can prove it, maybe, who knows

                :) Peru? well, i'll say my thoughts later on, i' also have something to add on the Malaysia situationhttp://www.fas.org/MHonArc/AT-doc_archive/msg00006.html
                if i were Malaysia, i would also choose the MiG-29's for that price, thats amazing, an aircraft that is on par or superior to the F-16 for even lower, well i the link, they compare it to the F/A-18

                the Romanian's ditched theirs(i am 25% Romanian) they didn't, they are upgrading thier MiG-29 to SNIPER variant which utilizes Israeli avionics

                about the filters thingy, hahaha

                http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/mig29/

                they don't use filters, the air intakes are closed and the air is fed throuhg the louvres on the upper surface of the wing root to prevent ingestion of foreign objects, their not filters, they're louvres

                Serbian MiGs failed to shoot down a single plane, well, did you get that from CNN or CTV, you have to watch the Russian stuff, the Chinese stuff, the French stuff, other news agencies around the world, you cannot trust American news agencies, they disgust me so much i can't watch CNN or ABC anymore, for the lack of information they present, and only a one-sided view of a situation, a view that shows America as the liberator, haha

                now, take this into account, if the MiG-29 was such a horribly bad aircraft as you describe it, why would other nations purchase it instead of the F-16 or F-18, sure, you might say that it was sold for dirt cheap, but in the modern world, quality almost always comes out on top of quantity(unless they are severly and savagely outmanned and outgunned, like the Yugoslav's) so, the fact of the matter is that nations choose the MiG-29 over the F-16, because the aircraft suits the purpose that they were looking to be fulfilled better than the opposition

                also, i hope that you are aware that America is prepared to hold sanctions against any european nation that acquires Russian aircraft, which shows, how desperate they are to advertize their F-16, they even put pressure on Israel to cancel their Lavi project, and put pressure on Japan in accepting the F-2, they were originally going to make a new aircraft for themselves, anyways thats all, can you provide me some links on these allegations that you made against Russia and how they "forced" nations to purchase their weaponry, and the nations had "no" other choice, goodnight everybody

                Dima which moderator banned you u speak substance man...i will beat the ass red of the moderator who banned you ha ha...any way good work was interstig reeading your post.
                What's the difference between people who pray in church and those who pray in casinos?
                The ones in the casinos are serious.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Bluesman, can you just please be quiet, your not contributing, so you might as well close your mouth

                  1. Penalties-on abovetopsecret.com they have ridiculous rules of, if you havea post thats only one sentence long or shorter, you get a 48 hour posting ban, if you quote too much, you get a posting ban, its such bs., i was just wondering if you can get a posting ban here too?

                  2.russianist is not a word, obviously, lol :) i had to make somethinig up though

                  3.k, let me check again, danm, this is really making me look stupid, not being able to find the link, just wait a moment.......yes, i found it finally, okay, let me read over it just to make sure.........
                  http://aeroweb.lucia.it/~agretch/RAFAQ/MiG-25.html
                  its under Gulf War Experience, read the entire link, its interesting and very informative
                  1.on the first night of the Gulf War, a MiG-25PD dropped an F-18C, and fired a missile at an A-6, while at the same time avoiding F-14 and F-15 escorts
                  2.MiG-25E eluded 8 F-15's and then fouhght with 2 EF-111A's, they fired three missiles at the Ravens and chased them away
                  3.two F-15 pilots were doing sweeps east of Baghdad, and the F-15's wanted to catch another fighter heading towards Iran, blow it out of the sky, but they were instead met by 2 MiG-25's and the Foxbats fired the missiles before they could, they evaded, they outran the Eagles, but 4 Sparrow and 2 Sidewinder missiles were fired, the Foxbat's evaded, then two more Eagles came in to cut off the Foxbats from getting to their base, they evaded, and another four more Eagles tried, but were also evaded by the MiG-25's, in the last attempt, they fired 4 Sparrows while attempting to chase the Foxbats, and all were evaded
                  yea, well thats it for that one

                  3.oh, yea, i know that Russia barters for weapons, they are planning to do that with Malaysia when they receive the Su-30MKM, in fact, Thailand was planning to buy Russian Sukhoi aircraft, in exchange for chickens, lol, it was a couple months ago

                  4.okay, i am mistaken when i said that Russia did not have debt to Yugoslavia, maybe they do, BUT, one thing that you mentioned isn't true, Russia does not have debt to Iraq, in fact, after the major fighting of the Iraqi war was over, Russia expelled between 60-90% of Iraq's debt, i forgot, now, you guys look it up, maybe it was 40%

                  5.South Korea, yes i know that they gave weapons to them to settle for debt, this doesn't really strengthen your argument because, South Korea can just reject this offer, but the fact that they accepted it means that the military hardware is of high quality, the same can be applied to those nations that accepted the MiG-29 as debt payment

                  6.um, in your last point, you explained that the MiG-29 was farsighted, seeing that its radar has a range of 245 kilomteres, that doesn't really make sense, can you elaborate please?

                  7.when you said that the reason why they chose the MiG-29 is because nations cannot get better aircraft, well, that doesn't really make sense, there are other nations that are willing to seel their aircraft, such as China, Israel, Sweden etc.
                  so, frankly, that doesn't make sense, they chose the best aircraft for them, PERIOD, just to elaborate, the South East part of Asia doesn't have an obvious favourite when it comes to buying military hardware, but if you have noticed, many nations there purchasing Russian weapons over the choice of American ones, wait, i found a link

                  http://new.mn.ru/english/issue.php?2002-12-13

                  read it, it shows how the US government has been putting pressure on South Korea to purchase its aircraft, even though the Su-35 is the obviously superior aircraft, America has also put similar pressure on Singapore's tender

                  http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/DG20Ag01.html

                  well,i can't find the link right now, but i'll keep loking, looks like Russia is dominating, Brazil, Malaysia, most likely Singapore, Colombia

                  oh yea, i forgot to mention that in my last post, if Peru had so many troubles with their Russian aircraft, then why would Colombia be SO interested in purchasing Russian MiGs, by the way, Peru's MiG's were supplied by Belarus, thats why they ahd so many faults with them, the Belarussian government never gauranteed that they were totally safe, and the Belarussian government never contacted MiG coporation to check with them, Russia took back the aircraft, fixed them, and returned them

                  8.um, again, comprehension problem, you got work on that, i said cannot buy russian aircraft, not european aircraft, so thats why they aren't sanctions imposed on any european antions by America, well, you might discuss the fact the Germany has MiG-29's, but, then again, they weren't bought by Germany, they were acquired when West Germany and East Germany unified

                  9.Syria/Eritrea/Sudan/Yemen? really, are you that desperate to point out something that has no validity, the reason why they chose Russian aircraft is because they want to,not because they have no choice, they can choose Chinese aircraft if they want, but the reason why they chose russian aircraft, is because it is a good airplane

                  10. now let me read your link, i'm rather interested to see what it says, well well well, that site is rather reliable, i go there soetimes, let me see, you didn't mention that they wanted Su-27's as well, you mentioned Mirage 2000's, but, thats just something small, well i can imagine why he said that they were no match for Thai F-16's, first of all, these aircraft were in storage for 10 years, who knows what might have happened to them, and second of all, Thai pilots in F-16's were much better trained than Burmese/Myanmar pilots

                  hey, does anyone have Mr. Vastu's/Mr. Hitler's email?

                  how old are you Troung? just curious

                  and don't talk about economies, i'll spank you like your mommma never did, lol
                  for MOTHER MOLDOVA

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    it was FredT, that little racist jerk
                    for MOTHER MOLDOVA

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Dima
                      7.when you said that the reason why they chose the MiG-29 is because nations cannot get better aircraft, well, that doesn't really make sense, there are other nations that are willing to seel their aircraft, such as China, Israel, Sweden etc.
                      What aircrafts manufactured by China and Israel is on par with the MiG-29? Sweden has her own political issues to deal with when it comes to weapons export.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        "Dima, the F-15 has NEVER been shot down in any air-to-air enagagement, anywhere, period. Not US, not Israeli, not Saudi. NOT EVER. I don't care what you might've read on the Internet, it is absolutely NOT TRUE."

                        Well we finally agree on something....

                        " i said cannot buy russian aircraft, not european aircraft, so thats why they aren't sanctions imposed on any european antions by America"

                        If that were true Russia would not even bother to offer these nations planes. That's a defense for the inability to sell the planes.

                        "well,i can't find the link right now, but i'll keep loking, looks like Russia is dominating, Brazil, Malaysia, most likely Singapore, Colombia"

                        Umm Singapore is buying no Russian planes. Colombia has a few helicopters and Brazils fighter tender was totally cancelled.

                        "oh, yea, i know that Russia barters for weapons, they are planning to do that with Malaysia when they receive the Su-30MKM, in fact, Thailand was planning to buy Russian Sukhoi aircraft, in exchange for chickens, lol, it was a couple months ago"

                        Actually they also wanted JAS-39s in exchange for chickens.

                        "read it, it shows how the US government has been putting pressure on South Korea to purchase its aircraft, even though the Su-35 is the obviously superior aircraft, America has also put similar pressure on Singapore's tender"

                        South Korea already bought the F-15K you're kinda late. It was the only plane on the tender which offered a deep strike ability. And in the end it came down to the Rafale and F-15K with the Su-35 long cut from the tender. Singapore has already cut the Su-35 out and it is down to the F-15T, EF-2000 and Rafale.

                        "Syria/Eritrea/Sudan/Yemen? really, are you that desperate to point out something that has no validity, the reason why they chose Russian aircraft is because they want to,not because they have no choice, they can choose Chinese aircraft if they want, but the reason why they chose russian aircraft, is because it is a good airplane"

                        China sells no 4th generation planes and those nations could n ot get one from anywhere else.

                        "how old are you Troung? just curious"

                        Old enough to buy beer in Washington DC...

                        ".okay, i am mistaken when i said that Russia did not have debt to Yugoslavia, maybe they do, BUT, one thing that you mentioned isn't true, Russia does not have debt to Iraq, in fact"

                        Russia sold the planes in exchange for thier own debts.

                        "South Korea can just reject this offer, but the fact that they accepted it means that the military hardware is of high quality"

                        No Russia is to poor to pay so they accept some weapons in lieu of money they would never get. The limited amount of BMP-3s and T-80s are not the strike arm of the ROKA or anything.

                        " you didn't mention that they wanted Su-27's as well, you mentioned Mirage 2000's, but, thats just something small, well i can imagine why he said that they were no match for Thai F-16's, first of all, these aircraft were in storage for 10 years, who knows what might have happened to them, and second of all, Thai pilots in F-16's were much better trained than Burmese/Myanmar pilots"

                        Ummm pratically the only MiG-29s which got exported after 1991 came from those in storage MiG-29s that were meant for Iraq.

                        ----
                        I swear I have done these shitty Russian vs. American topics so many fukking times they lose the goddamn point.... its all these people who of course want to pretend like there is a competitor to America, or want to feel good about thier nation which flies Russian tech... its so goddamn 1D and all...
                        To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          well, the FC-1 otherwise known as the J-9, the design came from the MiG-33 which was to be a direct competitor to the F-16(because, as most people don't realize is that the MiG-29 was designed to be more like the F-15 than the F-16)

                          the fighter would be powered by a single RD-93 engine because it is much more powerful than the RD-33, with a conventional design resembling the F-16, the project advanced very far, but since Russia was reorienting themselves towards mutli-role aircraft and since the MiG-33 was only useful against airborne targets, the project was cancelled and later on given to the Chinese as the FC-1, i've heard rumoursa that it would have a canard triplane configuration, it is totally different compared to the MiG-29M(which is now called the MiG-33)

                          it was much lighter, closer to the weight of the F-16, it featured air inlets on the lateral sides of the fuselage rather than the ventral inlets of the MiG-33, but the most apparent change is the repositioning of the ventral fins from the engine compartment

                          the aircraft is expected to cost in between $10-15 million per copy, significantly cheaper than the minimum of $37 million for a JSF and $370 million for an F-22, and expected to rise

                          the aircraft was supposed to operate in cooperation with the J-10(i was going to mention that the J-10 is equal to performance compared to the MiG-29 as well) but the Chinese government didn't like the idea of operating two aircraft with basically the same characteristics at the same timea s it would be a financial drain

                          the aircraft was supposed to make it first flight in January 1996, but sadly, the project was delayed because Pakistan wanted to upgrade its fleet of F-16's because of the threat of India's Su-30MKI's

                          in February 1998, the project was restarted after 2 years of stagnation, and now, China is expected to buy 200+ aircraft, and Pakistan is expected to buy at least 150 aircraft

                          the project was name JF-17 Thunder and was completed in a record of only four years after being bought, but after the imposition of sanctions against China in 1999, it hindered the acquisition of avionics and weaponry for the aircraft and the avionics had to be delinked from the airframe development in 2001, they completed a detailed preliminary design in 2001, and completed the detailed design structure and the system charts in 2002

                          production work began on September 16, 2002 in Chengdu, which is the capitol of China's southwest province Sichuan

                          the FC-1 made its first formal debut at China's fourth International Airshow between Novmber 4-7, 2002 in Zhuhai, near Macao

                          up till 2003, 5 planes had passed their evaluation and 7 had already made their maiden flight

                          serial production of the aircraft will begin in January 2006 and is expected to replace Mirage, F-16, A-5, and F-7 aircraft and will meet the latest requirements of Pakistan

                          the aircraft is going to be considered as a match for the LCA(light Combat Aircraft) of India and has some features like advanced and futuristic avionics and cost effectiveness that will give it an edge over the LCA

                          the aircraft is a light-weight, multi-role, all-weather aircraft, having the capability of flying at Mach 1.6 and it has a hggh thrust-to-ewight ratio giving it improved maneuverability, it also has the ability to engage targets at all speeds, alltitudes within the conventional flying envelope(well that makes me feel safe lol)
                          it can strike at very long distances when in strike and interdiction modes, and has an advanced FCS which is a mix of conventional and FBW controls which, along with its high thrust-to-weight ratio, give it incredible maneuverability and agility

                          it will be capable of carrying WVR, BVR, anti-ship, anti-radiation missiles, laser guided bombs, penetration bombs, and cluster bombs, it might also have the capability of carrying nuclear warheads such as the MiG-29C

                          in the end, it will have a long range and combat radius because of a very fuel-efficient turbofan, it will be slow at only Mach 1.6(is it just me or are aircraft getting slower these days, the JSF is supposed to replace the F-16, they both have a maximum speed of Mach 1.8, and the Raptor is supposed to replace the F-15, F-15 Mach 2.6 and Raptor Mach 1.8, an F-15 can outrun a Sidewinder and Archer) extremely maneuverable, STOL capability, short take-off and landing,

                          the aircraft will also feature precision targetting systems, battlefield awareness sytems, navigation systems, target detection and recognition as well as electronic warfare

                          the first 8 are to be delivered in 2006

                          here are its following statistics

                          normal weight of 9.072 tons which makes it lighter than the F-16 and MiG-29
                          a weapons load of 3,629 kg, which is lower than both the MiG-29 and F-16
                          a maximum speed of Mach 1.6 puts it at slower than both the F-16 and MiG-29
                          its service ceiling of 15,240 meters is on par with the F-16, but still lower than the MiG-29







                          http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita.../fc-1_06-s.jpg





                          the J-10/F-10 project began in October 1988 and was to have a canard triplane configuration with a delta wing, because having a delta wing gave two significcant benefits, the leading edge of the delta wing stays ahead of the shock wave genreated by the nose when in supersonic flight , which makes it very efficient and aerodynamic at supersonic speeds, the second advantage is that the leadiing edge of the delta wing generates a vortex that attaches itself to the upper wing during high AOA maneuvers, resulting in high stall points it also offers increased survivability because it has increased structural and airflow stability

                          in 1993 the Chinese possessed an all metal model of the J-10, wind tunnel testing proved that there were many problems with the project including low maneuverability at subsonic speeds, and lower than expected maximum AOA at subsonic speeds, there was also a trend going aroiund the world where aircraft became multi-role, this made drastic changes to the J-10 such as making it acquire terrain following radar, more and sturdier hardpoints, and an entirely new targetting Fit completed its first flight in 1996 with the help of the Russians donating their AL-31FN turbofan engine, BUT, it took two years until it had a successful flight in 1998

                          by 1999, China had 6 prototypes, 4 for flight tests and 2 for static tests, and by late 2000, there were 9 J-10's accumulating over 140 flight hoursin early 2003, 10 J-10's were deployed to Nanjing Military Region for training and operational evaluation, unlike the FC-1, development of this aircraft wouldn not stop and they developed a two seat version for trainig and air-to-ground roles

                          preliminary designs of the J-10 featuring single engine and twin engines as well as featuring LO geometry was also completed

                          Russian support didn't stop at providing the J-10 with the AL-31FN engines, but they also offered advanced multifunction radars, navigation and targeting systems, ECM suites, missile warning and defense systems

                          the Chinese will most likely adopt the Russian Phazotron RP-35 which is an X-band radar with digital fire control sensors and an electronically scanning phased array antenna, the multifunction radar is also nkown by the name of Zemchug, the radar features a liquid-cooled travelling wave tube transmitter, an exciter, three channel microwave receiver, and programmable data and signal processors

                          here are some of the statistics for the J-10/F-10

                          normal weight of 9.75tons, which is heavier than the FC-1, but lighter than the F-16 and MiG-29
                          Maximum speed of Mach 1.85, which is faster than FC-1 considerably, and just barely sqeuking past the F-16, but still slower than the MiG-29
                          and its service ceilnig is 18,000 meters, significantly more than the F-16 and FC-1, and slightly more than the MiG-29

                          http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...s/j-10_4-s.jpg
                          for MOTHER MOLDOVA

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            "Ummm pratically the only MiG-29s which got exported after 1991 came from those in storage MiG-29s that were meant for Iraq.

                            ----
                            I swear I have done these shitty Russian vs. American topics so many fukking times they lose the goddamn point.... its all these people who of course want to pretend like there is a competitor to America, or want to feel good about thier nation which flies Russian tech... its so goddamn 1D and all..."

                            no, not true, Colombia is going to purchase MiG-29's India purchased them, Malaysia purchased them, Sudan or Algeria purchsaed them, i forgot who, and a few more, i don't know the specifics

                            its so goddamn 1D and all, NO, JUST NO, what IS 1D is the fact that you have the inability to respect an aircraft for what it does well, and that is fight

                            you obviously have some sort of comprehension problem and and fail to recognize the characteristics of each aircraft, what is really sad, is that your one of the few 1D persons that i have talked to on any forum

                            i'm going sledding, and when i get back, i'll whip you up into shape, regarding your comment on how Russia is too poor
                            for MOTHER MOLDOVA

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                            • #59
                              Well, 1st off, neither the J-10 nor the FC-1 has reached operational status.

                              2nd, neither Pakistan nor China has actually started marketting nor release actual operational performance data which means that either plane can be much, much better than the MiG-29

                              or as history suggests,

                              Extreme underperformers.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                1.on the first night of the Gulf War, a MiG-25PD dropped an F-18C, and fired a missile at an A-6, while at the same time avoiding F-14 and F-15 escorts
                                2.MiG-25E eluded 8 F-15's and then fouhght with 2 EF-111A's, they fired three missiles at the Ravens and chased them away
                                3.two F-15 pilots were doing sweeps east of Baghdad, and the F-15's wanted to catch another fighter heading towards Iran, blow it out of the sky, but they were instead met by 2 MiG-25's and the Foxbats fired the missiles before they could, they evaded, they outran the Eagles, but 4 Sparrow and 2 Sidewinder missiles were fired, the Foxbat's evaded, then two more Eagles came in to cut off the Foxbats from getting to their base, they evaded, and another four more Eagles tried, but were also evaded by the MiG-25's, in the last attempt, they fired 4 Sparrows while attempting to chase the Foxbats, and all were evaded
                                yea, well thats it for that one
                                Still waiting for the part where the F-15 loses in any air-to-air engagement, anywhere in the world, anytime in history...

                                If you can't put up, shut up, especially as you just told ME to shut up. Get your dope right, or you have no credibility here. Be gone, little man.

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