Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 47

Thread: P-51 Mustang v. Bf-109K/Fw-190D

  1. #1
    Senior Contributor Triple C's Avatar
    Join Date
    11 Apr 06
    Location
    Taipei, Taiwan
    Posts
    2,403

    P-51 Mustang v. Bf-109K/Fw-190D

    Recently I have been expanding my interest in World War II from ground combat to the air war. This is not a thread about which fighter better; what I want to know is what are the strengths and weakness of the birds and how would a pilot play his hand in a fight between them.

    If you are put into the cockpit of a high flying and fast P-51D and you spot a Bf-109K climbing into your altitute to engage, or a F-190D/F-109G bellow that you want to kill, how will you going about doing that? What are the strengths and weaknesses of the Mustang and the German fighters in such a line up? Conversely, if you are in that F-190D or Bf-104G/K, what will you do?

    *Edit: I must be suffering a brain power deficit because I forgot about to put the BF-109G in the thread header....
    Last edited by Triple C; 26 Apr 08, at 11:33.
    All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
    -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

  2. #2
    Armchair Worrier Senior Contributor bolo121's Avatar
    Join Date
    19 Dec 07
    Location
    india
    Posts
    2,088
    Well first things first lets see the pics...
    Last edited by bolo121; 26 Apr 08, at 12:11.

  3. #3
    Old Cold Warrior Military Professional GAU-8's Avatar
    Join Date
    14 Feb 07
    Location
    Grapevine, Texas
    Posts
    611
    Win the energy fight.
    Fight using your strengths.
    Exploit his weaknesses.


    YouTube - Dogfight From the History Channel

    YouTube - Dogfights: P-51: Don Bryan is a stud

    YouTube - Dogfights: P-51: Richard Candelaria

    Kill him.
    RTB.
    Go to the club.
    Last edited by GAU-8; 29 Apr 08, at 14:57.

  4. #4
    Staff Emeritus
    Military Professional
    Contrary by Nature.
    zraver's Avatar
    Join Date
    22 Oct 06
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    15,003
    Dive, you can catch them if your the hunter or leave them behind if you are the pursued. So the higher you start your fight the better. Plus the Mustang with is American made av-gas and longer range can make peak power longer and safer than the short legged- methanol injected German planes.

    One advantage the Mustang does have if the pursued and if he has height is he can let the German close on him*. If the enemy fires from way out its a new pilot and the American has the skill advantage. If the German bores in guns silent its probably a veteran pilot or even an expert (ace) and it is time to dive away to either gain a latter advantage, or to make sure you don't becoem kill number 153 on some knight cross wearing wonder pilot.

    *at least one non-German ace did this, Juutilainen would let VVS pilots close and he would watch to see what he was up against.

    if your in a German if your an expert use your skills, if your new and your not keen on being a deadman strike fast and flee in the confusion.

  5. #5
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
    Join Date
    27 Jan 06
    Location
    DPRK, Demokratik People's Republik of Kalifornia
    Posts
    23,818
    I remember reading somewhere German aces prefer the Bf-109E or the Bf-109G without the wing cannons. They only need the center cannon and the 2 machineguns on top of the engine. The fighter is more agile without the dead weight on the wings and a much better gun platform with all fire coming from center line.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

  6. #6
    Staff Emeritus
    Military Professional
    Contrary by Nature.
    zraver's Avatar
    Join Date
    22 Oct 06
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    15,003
    Quote Originally Posted by gunnut View Post
    I remember reading somewhere German aces prefer the Bf-109E or the Bf-109G without the wing cannons. They only need the center cannon and the 2 machineguns on top of the engine. The fighter is more agile without the dead weight on the wings and a much better gun platform with all fire coming from center line.
    That was certainly Hartmann's preference. Although he never tangled with the heavies

  7. #7
    Senior Contributor Triple C's Avatar
    Join Date
    11 Apr 06
    Location
    Taipei, Taiwan
    Posts
    2,403
    Zaver,

    Are you talking about the Fw190A/D or Bf 109G/K here?

    I am under the impression that the Mustang dominated Fw190A and Bf107G by being the superior better energy fighter. Or are you talking about the latter two?
    All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
    -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

  8. #8
    Staff Emeritus
    Military Professional
    Contrary by Nature.
    zraver's Avatar
    Join Date
    22 Oct 06
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    15,003
    Quote Originally Posted by Triple C View Post
    Zaver,

    Are you talking about the Fw190A/D or Bf 109G/K here?

    I am under the impression that the Mustang dominated Fw190A and Bf107G by being the superior better energy fighter. Or are you talking about the latter two?

    Any German prop plane. With the exception of the TA-150 the Germans were always at a disadvantage up high, but if the Mustangs were lower the Germans could dive in and escape in the confusion.

  9. #9
    Military Professional dark-alias's Avatar
    Join Date
    28 Mar 08
    Location
    California
    Posts
    217
    lets not forget about the visability advantage of the mustang.

  10. #10
    Defense Professional RustyBattleship's Avatar
    Join Date
    12 Jan 06
    Location
    Long Beach, CA
    Posts
    6,042
    General Chuck Yeager (in his book) always preferred scouting for the German planes from high up and seeing them FIRST. He emphasized on being first so you can manuever to your best advantage. That was credit to his unusual eyesight in that he could see the Germans before anyone else in his squadron could and he could even follow the vortexes in the air caused by his bullets and adjust lead and windage faster than anyone else.

    Therefore, because of their extremely high speed, P-51's had a tremendous surprise advantage over almost any German fighter especially if they could attack from above.

    I say almost because we are talking 109's and not 262's.
    Able to leap tall tales in a single groan.

  11. #11
    Staff Emeritus
    Military Professional
    Contrary by Nature.
    zraver's Avatar
    Join Date
    22 Oct 06
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    15,003
    Quote Originally Posted by dark-alias View Post
    lets not forget about the visability advantage of the mustang.
    No such thing, while the plane had an edge vs the Me109 once combat was joined, the German's were much more likely to spot the American's first because of the USAAF practice of using bare metal and not painted craft. Yes the silvery skins made the Mustang marginally faster, lighter and longer ranged but reflected light. And since most would be on a NW-SE axis the sun was always pinging off some of them. If the Bomber stream is coming to Germany- be to the east of it, if attacking trailers- be west.

  12. #12
    Senior Contributor Triple C's Avatar
    Join Date
    11 Apr 06
    Location
    Taipei, Taiwan
    Posts
    2,403
    GAU,

    Thanks for the vids. I particularly enjoyed the clip about Anderson. One hell of a pilot!

    The thing with low speed dogfighter seems to be that, though it could outturn a faster opponent, he can come at you from a better position and energy, and he could either give chase or escape.
    All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
    -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

  13. #13
    FreeGeneral Senior Contributor Big K's Avatar
    Join Date
    11 Dec 06
    Location
    Istanbul, Turkey, Turkey
    Posts
    2,511
    Quote Originally Posted by RustyBattleship View Post
    ......from high up and seeing them FIRST....
    seeing first, hiting with a great accuracy than fleeing immediately...that was the Hartmann's tactic wasnt it?....

    than can we say the tactics were almost the same?
    Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none; be able for thine enemy rather in power than use; and keep thy friend under thine own life's key; be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech.

  14. #14
    FreeGeneral Senior Contributor Big K's Avatar
    Join Date
    11 Dec 06
    Location
    Istanbul, Turkey, Turkey
    Posts
    2,511
    btw, a comparison between BF-109s and P-51s is not that fair isnt it?

    i mean Mustangs were far better fighters(according to my flight experience in the Battlefield 1942 and Forgotten Hope games ) than BF's but Messerschmits were desingned before ww2, but P-51s during ww2 rignt?....so this gives a tremendous advantage to P-51s designers right?

    a comparison between Spitfire and BF-109s will be more fair
    Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none; be able for thine enemy rather in power than use; and keep thy friend under thine own life's key; be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech.

  15. #15
    Senior Contributor Triple C's Avatar
    Join Date
    11 Apr 06
    Location
    Taipei, Taiwan
    Posts
    2,403

    Big K,

    War isn't fair

    Bf-109G and Fw-190A were the most prevalent Luftwaffe fighters at the decisive stages of the air war.

    seeing first, hiting with a great accuracy than fleeing immediately...that was the Hartmann's tactic wasnt it?....
    That is THE tactic to fight in the air. "Find the enemy and shoot him down--the rest is nonesense," as they say. To be fair dogfighters have a better chance to come out alive in a bad situation, but you want to surprise the other fellow and shoot him first. I believe that the statistics on fighter engagements is that 70-80% of the pilots that bought the farm did not see it coming.
    All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
    -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. What's the best end-of-WW2 propeller fighter?
    By hello in forum Military Aviation
    Replies: 253
    Last Post: 30 Jan 10,, 20:29

Share this thread with friends:

Share this thread with friends:

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •