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P-51 Mustang v. Bf-109K/Fw-190D

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  • #16
    Triple C,

    "G" was for Gustav, wasnt it? :)
    Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none; be able for thine enemy rather in power than use; and keep thy friend under thine own life's key; be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Triple C View Post


      That is THE tactic to fight in the air. "Find the enemy and shoot him down--the rest is nonesense," as they say. To be fair dogfighters have a better chance to come out alive in a bad situation, but you want to surprise the other fellow and shoot him first. I believe that the statistics on fighter engagements is that 70-80% of the pilots that bought the farm did not see it coming.
      Unless your the star of Africa. Then you get into the middle of an enemy Luftberry fire 1 burst per enemy plane straight into the cockpit to kill the pilot and wipe out whole squadrons in seconds. Then on your way home and your engine dies, you glide down and snuff out another fire in an unpowered aircraft and then land still having most of your ammo.

      His attack method to break up formations, which he perfected, resulted in a high lethality ratio, and in rapid, multiple victories per attack. On 3 June 1942, Marseille attacked alone a formation of 16 Curtiss P-40 fighters and shot down six aircraft of No. 5 Squadron SAAF, five of them in six minutes, including three aces: Robin Pare (six victories), Douglas Golding (6.5 victories) and Andre Botha (five victories). His wingman Rainer Pöttgen, nicknamed Fliegendes Zählwerk the ("Flying Counting Machine"),[33] said of this fight:

      All the enemy were shot down by Marseille in a turning dogfight. As soon as he shot, he needed only to glance at the enemy plane. His pattern [of gunfire] began at the front, the engine's nose, and consistently ended in the cockpit. How he was able to do this not even he could explain. With every dogfight he would throttle back as far as possible; this enabled him to fly tighter turns. His expenditure of ammunition in this air battle was 360 rounds (60 per kill).[34]

      , Marseille returned to combat duties on 23 August. 1 September 1942 had been Marseille's most successful day, destroying 17 enemy aircraft, and September would see him score 54 kills, his most productive month.[36] The 17 enemy aircraft shot down included eight in 10 minutes. This was the most aircraft from Western Allied air forces shot down by a single pilot in one day.[37] Only one pilot, Emil "Bully" Lang on 4 November 1943, would better this score, against the Soviet Air Force on the Eastern Front.[38]

      158 kills IIRC all but 2 vs fighters, all vs the RAF and all from the battle of Britian to 26 September 1942. had he not died in an accident he would probably be the greatest pilot of all time. he had 158 kills vs the much better trained and equipped RAF before Hartmann even got his wings.

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      • #18
        An amazing pilot Marseille was. Much harder to make yourself an ace fighting the USAAF/RAF than Red Army aviation.
        All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
        -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

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        • #19
          yes he was, reading on this guy and what he did is amazing.

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          • #20
            He probably had an aimbot.

            That explained all the head shots.
            "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by gunnut View Post
              He probably had an aimbot.

              That explained all the head shots.
              so....wasnt there an admin? :P
              Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none; be able for thine enemy rather in power than use; and keep thy friend under thine own life's key; be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by zraver View Post
                Unless your the star of Africa. Then you get into the middle of an enemy Luftberry fire 1 burst per enemy plane straight into the cockpit to kill the pilot and wipe out whole squadrons in seconds. Then on your way home and your engine dies, you glide down and snuff out another fire in an unpowered aircraft and then land still having most of your ammo.

                His attack method to break up formations, which he perfected, resulted in a high lethality ratio, and in rapid, multiple victories per attack. On 3 June 1942, Marseille attacked alone a formation of 16 Curtiss P-40 fighters and shot down six aircraft of No. 5 Squadron SAAF, five of them in six minutes, including three aces: Robin Pare (six victories), Douglas Golding (6.5 victories) and Andre Botha (five victories). His wingman Rainer Pöttgen, nicknamed Fliegendes Zählwerk the ("Flying Counting Machine"),[33] said of this fight:

                All the enemy were shot down by Marseille in a turning dogfight. As soon as he shot, he needed only to glance at the enemy plane. His pattern [of gunfire] began at the front, the engine's nose, and consistently ended in the cockpit. How he was able to do this not even he could explain. With every dogfight he would throttle back as far as possible; this enabled him to fly tighter turns. His expenditure of ammunition in this air battle was 360 rounds (60 per kill).[34]

                , Marseille returned to combat duties on 23 August. 1 September 1942 had been Marseille's most successful day, destroying 17 enemy aircraft, and September would see him score 54 kills, his most productive month.[36] The 17 enemy aircraft shot down included eight in 10 minutes. This was the most aircraft from Western Allied air forces shot down by a single pilot in one day.[37] Only one pilot, Emil "Bully" Lang on 4 November 1943, would better this score, against the Soviet Air Force on the Eastern Front.[38]

                158 kills IIRC all but 2 vs fighters, all vs the RAF and all from the battle of Britian to 26 September 1942. had he not died in an accident he would probably be the greatest pilot of all time. he had 158 kills vs the much better trained and equipped RAF before Hartmann even got his wings.
                Hartmann himself said that Marseille was the greatest pilot in the Luftwaffe. ;)

                Although the older model Bf-109's without methanol injection were at a disadvantage against the Mustangs, the K model was just as fast (both could fly at around 450mph).
                Last edited by leib10; 05 May 08,, 04:50.
                "The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world. So wake up, Mr. Freeman. Wake up and smell the ashes." G-Man

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by leib10 View Post
                  Hartmann himself said that Marseille was the greatest pilot in the Luftwaffe. ;)

                  Although the older model Bf-109's without methanol injection were at a disadvantage against the Mustangs, the K model was just as fast (both could fly at around 450mph).
                  The methanol injection was for emergency power, Gemrany lacked 100 octane av-gas and had to improvise. The P-51 could make max power for longer and do so with far less wear on the engine. Methanol/NOS/Water injection is a double edged sword. It rapidly cools the airs so you can pack more of it into each cylinder so you can add more fuel, but the pressures on the engine go way up. it's great for drag race, not so good for a distance race. Plus I am unsure how sudden changes in atmosphere would affect it. If your diving to fast for the engine to adjust you could end up blowing the engine apart when the methanol leans out the engine and you get fuel detonation.

                  I have been considering NOS/Methanol/Water system for my Z but the risks are not worth it long term. Aside from a possibly a small wet shot NOS system to keep from going to lean, I will simply keep upgrading my turbo. Next is a FMIC That should let me bump my boost at from 8psi to 16 and give me an easy 100hp+ boost.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by zraver View Post
                    ..... for my Z ....

                    your Z =?
                    Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none; be able for thine enemy rather in power than use; and keep thy friend under thine own life's key; be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Big K View Post
                      your Z =?
                      or zed outside the US/Canada.

                      http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3039832

                      Mine is number 182 of 1002 ever made. Called the Shiro(white) Special (SS) it was the pinnacle of the 3rd generation Z car. In 1988 with the speed limiter disabled it hit 153mph on 205 hp driving through a 5 speed manual mated to a VLSD. Mine is not stock. I have an upgraded turbo T3/04 up from the stock T25. A gutted plenum and catalytic converter. A stand alone engine management system. I was running an MSD ignition, but that is being yanked out and an upgraded SDSefi.com EM-4F with coil packs is going in its place.

                      Also replaced are the stock SS springs. Now I have tokico illuminas (5 way adjustable) and Tokico springs. The SS model also had very thick swaybars. 26mm front and 25mm rear. The stock 1988 300zx turbo never won any awards for handling, but the Shiro is a much different beast. Where as the stock model was about .8g on a good day, my car should be an easy .84+ on its BF Goodrich G force sport ZR tires (ZR rated or above up to 186mph and AA traction) thats not super car performance, but its nimble. Eventually I want to do a coil over set up. A guy who did so got a 300zx z31 to break 1g on the skidpad.

                      1st generation- 240z 260z 280z
                      2nd generation- 280zx
                      3rd generation- 300zx z31
                      4th generation- 300zx z32 (the famed twin turbo)
                      5th generation- 350z (370z in 2010)

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by zraver View Post
                        or zed outside the US/Canada.

                        http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3039832

                        Mine is number 182 of 1002 ever made. Called the Shiro(white) Special (SS) it was the pinnacle of the 3rd generation Z car. In 1988 with the speed limiter disabled it hit 153mph on 205 hp driving through a 5 speed manual mated to a VLSD. Mine is not stock. I have an upgraded turbo T3/04 up from the stock T25. A gutted plenum and catalytic converter. A stand alone engine management system. I was running an MSD ignition, but that is being yanked out and an upgraded SDSefi.com EM-4F with coil packs is going in its place.

                        Also replaced are the stock SS springs. Now I have tokico illuminas (5 way adjustable) and Tokico springs. The SS model also had very thick swaybars. 26mm front and 25mm rear. The stock 1988 300zx turbo never won any awards for handling, but the Shiro is a much different beast. Where as the stock model was about .8g on a good day, my car should be an easy .84+ on its BF Goodrich G force sport ZR tires (ZR rated or above up to 186mph and AA traction) thats not super car performance, but its nimble. Eventually I want to do a coil over set up. A guy who did so got a 300zx z31 to break 1g on the skidpad.

                        1st generation- 240z 260z 280z
                        2nd generation- 280zx
                        3rd generation- 300zx z31
                        4th generation- 300zx z32 (the famed twin turbo)
                        5th generation- 350z (370z in 2010)

                        very good looking car. :)

                        this is a V6 SOHC right?...single or twin turbos?
                        Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none; be able for thine enemy rather in power than use; and keep thy friend under thine own life's key; be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Big K View Post
                          very good looking car. :)

                          this is a V6 SOHC right?...single or twin turbos?

                          the 3rd generation is a SOHC 3.0L V6 the non-turboes make 160-165hp the Turbos (single) make 200-205hp. engine name VG30E or VG30ET

                          1st generation SOHC 240z 2.4L I6 260z 2.6L I6 280z 2.8L I6 L24 or L26
                          2nd generation SOHC 280zx 2.8L I6 non turbo or 2.8L single turbo L28E or L28ET
                          4th Generation DOHC 3.0L V6 222hp non turbo 300hp twin turbo VG30DE or VG30DETT
                          5th Generation DOHC 3.5L V6 280-300hp VQ35DE (2010 370z- DOHC 3.7L V6 320+ hp)

                          YouTube - breed z31 still on the SOHC V6, the VG30 was chained to the floor by 80's emissions laws. By modern standards the stock z31 model of the 300zx isn't fast. But this has kept value low until recently and it is fairly simple to add gobs of power cheaply. The cars stock internals can safely handle 500hp so all you really need to do unless you want a drag car is do bolt ons. Bigger injectors, a bigger turbo, FMIC, walbro hp fuel pump, a turbo upgrade and some sort of engine management will take you to 400hp fairly easy.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by zraver View Post
                            The methanol injection was for emergency power, Gemrany lacked 100 octane av-gas and had to improvise. The P-51 could make max power for longer and do so with far less wear on the engine. Methanol/NOS/Water injection is a double edged sword. It rapidly cools the airs so you can pack more of it into each cylinder so you can add more fuel, but the pressures on the engine go way up. it's great for drag race, not so good for a distance race. Plus I am unsure how sudden changes in atmosphere would affect it. If your diving to fast for the engine to adjust you could end up blowing the engine apart when the methanol leans out the engine and you get fuel detonation.

                            I have been considering NOS/Methanol/Water system for my Z but the risks are not worth it long term. Aside from a possibly a small wet shot NOS system to keep from going to lean, I will simply keep upgrading my turbo. Next is a FMIC That should let me bump my boost at from 8psi to 16 and give me an easy 100hp+ boost.
                            Yep, the methanol was used for escaping and in emergencies only.
                            "The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world. So wake up, Mr. Freeman. Wake up and smell the ashes." G-Man

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                            • #29
                              what about the chassis?...i mean the chassis rigidity is not as good as newer vehicles...i mean as a automotive sector man i can say that you can find a better chassis to upgrade??...

                              one of my best friend is the local Ferrari sales manager...he was having a Alfa Romeo GTV 2.0lt V6 DOHC Twin Turbo Engine...he made all the possible upgradings(including the NOS and all other 2fast2furious mambojambo) to his car.

                              at the end he sold it....

                              he told me that this is an infinite struggle which is not worth because you can do anything and everything to your vehicle but a simple race car will easily knock you down at the track...because it is a race car...

                              so now hes driving an Alfa Romeo 156 1,6lt 122hp...he says "this is the peace of mind, driving a stock car... :) "
                              Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none; be able for thine enemy rather in power than use; and keep thy friend under thine own life's key; be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by zraver View Post
                                The methanol injection was for emergency power, Gemrany lacked 100 octane av-gas and had to improvise. The P-51 could make max power for longer and do so with far less wear on the engine. Methanol/NOS/Water injection is a double edged sword. It rapidly cools the airs so you can pack more of it into each cylinder so you can add more fuel, but the pressures on the engine go way up. it's great for drag race, not so good for a distance race. Plus I am unsure how sudden changes in atmosphere would affect it. If your diving to fast for the engine to adjust you could end up blowing the engine apart when the methanol leans out the engine and you get fuel detonation.
                                zraver,

                                Great post. Very informative.

                                How did the 109 pilots use their methanol injection? Was it a throttle function like modern afterburners? Did they get a measured amount for a specific burst of power or did the injection continue as long as the pilot demanded it?

                                Thanks,

                                Bill

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