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  • What if Hawaii wants independence?

    We're all quick to jump to Tibet's side to condemn China's crack down on what is essentially a race riot and reprisal attacks on the Hans.

    What if Hawaiians want to declare independence from the rest of the United States? Will we be so quick to support them?

    Hawaiians are still bitter (I'm no Obama ) about the annexation of their kingdom by the US in 1895 (too lazy to verify). What if a radical wing of Hawaiians started to attack mainlanders on sight? Will we support them or will we demand a crack down?
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

  • #2
    Originally posted by gunnut View Post
    We're all quick to jump to Tibet's side to condemn China's crack down on what is essentially a race riot and reprisal attacks on the Hans.

    What if Hawaiians want to declare independence from the rest of the United States? Will we be so quick to support them?

    Hawaiians are still bitter (I'm no Obama ) about the annexation of their kingdom by the US in 1895 (too lazy to verify). What if a radical wing of Hawaiians started to attack mainlanders on sight? Will we support them or will we demand a crack down?
    Gun, You should have made this a PRE designation.:))

    Pearl lies right there and surely the US will defend her. Hell no ships would have to leave port and we could still shoot them full of holes.:)) In Pearls case (They one and only time I'll agree with Obama) we would definately cling to our guns. (As we do in Pa as per Obama):))
    Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by gunnut View Post
      We're all quick to jump to Tibet's side to condemn China's crack down on what is essentially a race riot and reprisal attacks on the Hans.

      What if Hawaiians want to declare independence from the rest of the United States? Will we be so quick to support them?

      Hawaiians are still bitter (I'm no Obama ) about the annexation of their kingdom by the US in 1895 (too lazy to verify). What if a radical wing of Hawaiians started to attack mainlanders on sight? Will we support them or will we demand a crack down?
      Hawaians are pretty happy with the status quo, tibetians are not. World of difference.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by gunnut View Post
        Hawaiians are still bitter (I'm no Obama ) about the annexation of their kingdom by the US in 1895 (too lazy to verify).
        In 1898 Hawaii was annexed by the United States, and in 1900 it became a U.S. territory. On August 21, 1959 it became the 50th American state. In 1993 the U.S. government apologized for U.S. participation in the overthrow of the Kingdom of Hawaii.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Adux View Post
          Hawaians are pretty happy with the status quo, tibetians are not. World of difference.
          The native Hawaiians aren't. They're in poverty cause everyone's moving in and jumping the costs up and makes it so that they can't buy land or a house or get ahead in the world.

          I have a soft spot for American secessionist movements.

          Hawaii has several of them. The predominant one I think is called Aloha Aina. Even some monarchists, and ironically the pretender to the Hawaiian throne ran as a Republican candidate for political office in 2006 and was narrowly defeated.

          Alaska has the Alaska Independence Party. 3-4% of the state's voting population are members. They even elected a governor on their ballot line in 1990. They want:

          "The Alaskan Independence Party's goal is the vote we were entitled to in 1958, one choice from among the following four alternatives:

          Remain a Territory.
          Become a separate and Independent Nation.
          Accept Commonwealth status.
          Become a State.

          The call for this vote is in furtherance of the dream of the Alaskan Independence Party's founding father, Joe Vogler, that Alaskans achieve independence under a minimal government, fully responsive to the people, and promoting a peaceful and lawful means of resolving differences."
          Their beef is that in 1958, the plebiscite allowed American soldiers to vote which is a no-no from a colonial point of view and did not print ballots in native Eskimo language for the large community of Native Americans at the time that couldn't read English. It's an oldish third party, stated in the 1970s.

          There's the Second Vermont Republic movement. 8% of the population is for it polls have shown.

          Various other ones: California, Texas, Cascadia (which is Oregon, Washington State, and British Colombia), the Southern U.S. (although the political party that advocates that has had bitter infighting and it's pretty null by now), and the Puerto Ricans are the main ones.
          Last edited by rj1; 16 Apr 08,, 19:58.

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          • #6
            I wouldn't care too much IF that's what Hawaii wanted because it has little effect on the continental US.

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            • #7
              Believe it or not, there is alot of discontent among the native Hawaiians and there are more radical ones who DO attack and harass Haoles (native Hawaiian word for White people) and non native Hawaiians and there is a movement for Hawaiian independence. Most of these loonies however are located on the less populated islands like Kauai, Hawaii (the big island), Maui, etc and not really on Oahu (the major population center/Honolulu, the center of tourism and Pearl Harbor, etc).

              There was also a bill proposed in the US Senate that would have pretty much banned non native Hawaiian people from holding political office or owning land but I think they were forced to drop the bill by the federal government after the state's non native Hawaiian population had large protests.

              Edit: the name of the bill was the Native Hawaiian Government Reorganization Act of 2005 also known as the Akaka Act after its sponsor; US Senator Daniel Akaka.
              Last edited by ChrisF202; 16 Apr 08,, 21:24.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by gunnut View Post
                We're all quick to jump to Tibet's side to condemn China's crack down on what is essentially a race riot and reprisal attacks on the Hans.

                What if Hawaiians want to declare independence from the rest of the United States? Will we be so quick to support them?

                Hawaiians are still bitter (I'm no Obama ) about the annexation of their kingdom by the US in 1895 (too lazy to verify). What if a radical wing of Hawaiians started to attack mainlanders on sight? Will we support them or will we demand a crack down?
                Perhaps the US govt. also beats up people who protest on the streets for independence? Moves APCs to quell people throwing stones? Perhaps the US govt. has a policy of settling non-Hawaiians on Hawaiian land to forcebly change the demographics?

                If you're meeting all those conditions then I'm with the Hawaiians too. Otherwise you don't just realize what Tibet is like.
                "Of all the manifestations of power, restraint impresses men the most." - Thucydides

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by chankya View Post
                  Perhaps the US govt. also beats up people who protest on the streets for independence?
                  Of course not. But what if those Hawaiians started attacking mainlanders (whites) for being white?

                  Originally posted by chankya View Post
                  Moves APCs to quell people throwing stones?
                  Did you see the APC used by the Texas authority to crush a religious sect? All on an unconfirmed, unsubstantiated, anonymous phone call?

                  FOXNews.com - Images Show Police Well Armed for Raid on Polygamist Retreat - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News

                  Originally posted by chankya View Post
                  Perhaps the US govt. has a policy of settling non-Hawaiians on Hawaiian land to forcebly change the demographics?
                  I'm against that policy if it exists.

                  Originally posted by chankya View Post
                  If you're meeting all those conditions then I'm with the Hawaiians too. Otherwise you don't just realize what Tibet is like.
                  When was the last time you were in Tibet?
                  Attached Files
                  Last edited by gunnut; 16 Apr 08,, 22:20.
                  "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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                  • #10
                    Preserve the Union. No secessionism will be tolerated.

                    -dale

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by dalem View Post
                      Preserve the Union. No secessionism will be tolerated.

                      -dale
                      (clears throat)

                      When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

                      We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

                      That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by rj1 View Post
                        (clears throat)
                        RJ, where do we draw the line? What happens when Mexico wants back the Southwest? What happens when every little town wants to break away over some stupid dispute?

                        I agree with Dale 100%, the union shall be preserved at any cost!

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by gunnut View Post

                          When was the last time you were in Tibet?
                          Never been to Tibet, but met a lot of Tibetans. My father was in the Indian Army. I've met people who are deeply in love with their land and yet are willing to hike a couple of hundred miles, with a great likelihood of being shot if found, to get to another land. Leaving your homeland is not an easy decision at the best of times. But to be willing to take such risks you must have to face much worse just staying put. The sheer volume of people doing so is stunning and an indicator of how systematic the oppression is. It isn't the odd Tibetan getting screwed, its the whole people.

                          The oppression is Tibet in real and extensive. In a few more decades the place will host a Tibetan minority and then it'll all be over. How would you like that to happen to your country? People in the forum shout themselves hoarse about some hypothetical Islamization of Europe; About immigrants assimilating into the dominant culture here in the US. All of that pales in comparison with the state sponsored dilution of local population in Tibet and you think this is okay?

                          Originally posted by gunnut View Post
                          Of course not. But what if those Hawaiians started attacking mainlanders (whites) for being white?
                          They did that because they see a real oppression against them by the Hans and the system does not allow any other way to vent. No freedom of speech or assembly and your homes are being forcibly resettled with foreigners. What would you do?
                          Last edited by chankya; 16 Apr 08,, 23:20. Reason: Added reply to another question
                          "Of all the manifestations of power, restraint impresses men the most." - Thucydides

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by gunnut View Post
                            We're all quick to jump to Tibet's side to condemn China's crack down on what is essentially a race riot and reprisal attacks on the Hans.

                            What if Hawaiians want to declare independence from the rest of the United States? Will we be so quick to support them?

                            Hawaiians are still bitter (I'm no Obama ) about the annexation of their kingdom by the US in 1895 (too lazy to verify). What if a radical wing of Hawaiians started to attack mainlanders on sight? Will we support them or will we demand a crack down?
                            lol...bitter or not, I don't see any Hawaiian monks demonstrating. :P
                            To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by chankya View Post
                              They did that because they see a real oppression against them by the Hans and the system does not allow any other way to vent. No freedom of speech or assembly and your homes are being forcibly resettled with foreigners. What would you do?
                              So you think it's OK to attack members of an ethnic group simply because you were wronged by other members of that group?
                              "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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