Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

China-Tibet Threads

Collapse
This is a sticky topic.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Actually not. The 1st thing that should be obvious is that the stats don't agree between the various census. 2ndly, there were disasters (the Great Leap Forward and the GPCR) to which we have proof that they skewed their numbers left, right, and centre. Thus, even if some part of your census is true, we can never be sure. Lastly, what is an unnatural death?
    since the chinese govt manupulate, or maybe put it in a nicer way, revised the numbers, it's no surprise we find the numbers dont tally. but with a reasonable calculation we could probably deduce what might have happened. besides, the numbers that dont tally are the few yrs around the great leap forward, the rest of the numbers are pretty much consistent.

    anyway, 2 of the census showed net decrease in population, one showed a very suspicious 'decrease in birth rates' with an increase in death rates, i dont think any of these supported the 'unborn population' theory.

    'unnatural death' was a direct translation from the chinese version. it simply means 'not of old age'(compare to average life expectancy at that time), could be deaths linked to a typical disease, an epidemic, famine, war, massacre etc. the line is getting blurred nowadays since young ppl do get cancer or other life threatening illness.

    since there was no other major disastrous events other than report of a widespread famine, putting conspiracy theories aside, i dont think it's a baseless accusation that the starvation cause the deaths of these mils of ppl.
    Last edited by Aniki; 21 Jul 08,, 05:35.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by yeung3939 View Post
      Obviously, CCP's assistance is not charity work, but the money and railway do increase the living standard of Tibetans a lot. Putting cultural and nationalistic things aside, who is going to help Tibetans if Tibet became independent? Da Lai Lama? Westerners?

      If Westerners were that concerned with the living standard of people in remote places, there wouldn't be starvation in Africa.

      Both CCP and Western government's policies are startegic in nature. Without information about what the majority of tibetans actually think, there is no moral highland.
      u are being emotional and irrational. things that u didnt hear of doesnt mean they dont exist. the west had and is still deeply involved in charity work worldwide. donations around the world came largely from western countries and more developed asian countries like japan. in comparison, the effort from china, although important, is still considered insignificant in terms of volume and value. besides donating money, western powers and japan still provide millions of volunteers, medical team and NGO organisations worldwide to help ppl out. a simple google on worldwide charity work will tell u the truth. u might say that, oh well, since they are rich they can afford to, but dont complain then.

      as for africa, again, westerners started charity work for them when mao was messing up china with his red guards. when they get involved, chinese say they have hidden agendas, when they dont get involve, chinese say that they dont care. it's easy pointing fingers, but what actual work have u done? even a call for china to get involve in Sudan hit the wall, and u can sit around accusing others for not doing work when they had already done much in the past.

      and yes, CCP china did get involved in helping africa. when russians backed mongolian independence from china, they dont dared say a thing. when russian backed mongolia into UN, CCP backed mongolia too, because russians was their 'fairy godmother' then. the communist bloc backed african countries into UN in return for american support for mongolia in the 60s. in the end american gave up and force chiang kai shek not to veto mongolia's entry (ROC was the legit 'Big 5' then). very helpful, isnt it? now they say, oh, tibet cannot go independent, taiwan cannot go into UN. what do u call that? double standards.

      china also help albanians, cubans, vietnamese, cambodians, north koreans in the 60s-70s. charitable work? yeah right. just because they want to compete for leadership with russians in the communists bloc. 'i give u money and goodies, u have to support me to be big brother'. what happened in the end? russians have deeper pockets and china lose out, all left china for the russians, except for khmer rouge in cambodia, who learnt everything from mao, and esp good in massacre of their own people. in the end china had to make friends with americans and that scared the sh!t out of the vietnamese. vietnam was busy at war with americans,with tens of thousands of chinese in their country. then out of the blue, china became an american ally in 72, u want to know why vietnamese chase out their chinese population after the vietnam war? cos to them thats the proper way to treat traitors. stab me in the back? off u go. in the end china had to 'punish' vietnam in 79. ironic? very. hidden agendas? definitely.
      Last edited by Aniki; 21 Jul 08,, 06:08.

      Comment


      • Aniki,
        These are stooges of the CCP and its distorted world view.
        No amount of reasoning, facts and figures are going to alter that view.
        sigpicAnd on the sixth day, God created the Field Artillery...

        Comment


        • Originally Posted by yeung3939
          Obviously, CCP's assistance is not charity work, but the money and railway do increase the living standard of Tibetans a lot. Putting cultural and nationalistic things aside, who is going to help Tibetans if Tibet became independent? Da Lai Lama? Westerners?
          as for tibet, since u agreed that china too had their agendas and motives, then why do u expect the west to help for free? or do u think that westerners should naturally be more charitable than the chinese govt?
          Last edited by Aniki; 21 Jul 08,, 06:25.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Deltacamelately View Post
            Aniki,
            These are stooges of the CCP and its distorted world view.
            No amount of reasoning, facts and figures are going to alter that view.
            well, since i'm ethic chinese (though not in anyway a chinese citizen), there's still a voice in me that wanted me to provide alternate views to those who share the same ancestry as i.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Aniki View Post
              u are being emotional and irrational. things that u didnt hear of doesnt mean they dont exist. the west had and is still deeply involved in charity work worldwide. donations around the world came largely from western countries and more developed asian countries like japan. in comparison, the effort from china, although important, is still considered insignificant in terms of volume and value. besides donating money, western powers and japan still provide millions of volunteers, medical team and NGO organisations worldwide to help ppl out. a simple google on worldwide charity work will tell u the truth. u might say that, oh well, since they are rich they can afford to, but dont complain then.

              as for africa, again, westerners started charity work for them when mao was messing up china with his red guards. when they get involved, chinese say they have hidden agendas, when they dont get involve, chinese say that they dont care. it's easy pointing fingers, but what actual work have u done? even a call for china to get involve in Sudan hit the wall, and u can sit around accusing others for not doing work when they had already done much in the past.

              and yes, CCP china did get involved in helping africa. when russians backed mongolian independence from china, they dont dared say a thing. when russian backed mongolia into UN, CCP backed mongolia too, because russians was their 'fairy godmother' then. the communist bloc backed african countries into UN in return for american support for mongolia in the 60s. in the end american gave up and force chiang kai shek not to veto mongolia's entry (ROC was the legit 'Big 5' then). very helpful, isnt it? now they say, oh, tibet cannot go independent, taiwan cannot go into UN. what do u call that? double standards.

              china also help albanians, cubans, vietnamese, cambodians, north koreans in the 60s-70s. charitable work? yeah right. just because they want to compete for leadership with russians in the communists bloc. 'i give u money and goodies, u have to support me to be big brother'. what happened in the end? russians have deeper pockets and china lose out, all left china for the russians, except for khmer rouge in cambodia, who learnt everything from mao, and esp good in massacre of their own people. in the end china had to make friends with americans and that scared the sh!t out of the vietnamese. vietnam was busy at war with americans,with tens of thousands of chinese in their country. then out of the blue, china became an american ally in 72, u want to know why vietnamese chase out their chinese population after the vietnam war? cos to them thats the proper way to treat traitors. stab me in the back? off u go. in the end china had to 'punish' vietnam in 79. ironic? very. hidden agendas? definitely.
              I just wanted to argue Tibetans wouldn't receive that much aid if Tibet became independent. Yes, CCP's aids are not charity but at least there are aids.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Deltacamelately View Post
                Aniki,
                These are stooges of the CCP and its distorted world view.
                No amount of reasoning, facts and figures are going to alter that view.
                Just 'stooges' of cultural arrogance and products of 'Western media indoctrination' (in CCP's wordings).

                What you think and say often depends on where you stand.

                Unless you have poll results of some kind, 'no amount of reasoning, facts and figures are going to prove the assumption that the majority of ethnic tibetans want independence'.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Aniki View Post
                  well, since i'm ethic chinese (though not in anyway a chinese citizen), there's still a voice in me that wanted me to provide alternate views to those who share the same ancestry as i.
                  I am from Hong Kong, and I have free access to all available information (both Chinese and Western). I am well aware of the alternate views you are talking about.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by yeung3939 View Post
                    With respect, I must disagree with you, my friend.

                    You are lucky, as you don't live in the old Tibet. The railway has incrased and will continue to help increase the living standard of ordinary Tibetans. No one dares to deny this. Not even Da Lai Lama. While I am in no position to speak for their interest, I don't believe you are in any better position than me.

                    Don't use the term 'conqueror'. The problem is more complex than you think.
                    "I beg you to accept that there is no people on earth who would not prefer their own bad government to the good government of an alien power."
                    -Gandhi

                    Any accomplishment the Chinese government had brought to Tibet does not disguise the essential fact of the matter that Tibet belongs to China because the PLA conquerored it. Leave aside for a moment whether Tibetans desire your modernizing reforms. Do you think they want you to be the ones to do it? As to being conquerors, I think after the recent events, it is rather clear to thoughtful observers that had the PLA not intervened, no pro-Chinese Tibetant would be capable of bringing Tibet back to China's fold.
                    Last edited by Triple C; 21 Jul 08,, 07:11.
                    All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
                    -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Triple C View Post
                      "I beg you to accept that there is no people on earth who would not prefer their own bad government to the good government of an alien power."
                      -Gandhi

                      Any accomplishment the Chinese government had brought to Tibet does not disguise the essential fact of the matter that Tibet belongs to China because the PLA conquerored it. Leave aside for a moment whether Tibetans desire your modernizing reforms. Do you think they want you to be the ones to do it? As to being conquerors, I think after the recent events, it is rather clear to thoughtful observers that had the PLA not intervened, no pro-Chinese Tibetant would be capable of bring Tibet back to China's fold.
                      Even if your statement 'no pro-Chinese Tibetant would be capable of bringing Tibet back to China's fold' was true, this doesn't mean much. It could be because the old ruling class (very likely to be unwelcomed by the majority of Tibetan) managed to capitalize on Tibet's geographical isolation. It could be because Chinese government (KMT or CCP) doesn't bother to take Tibet back (just like Outer Mongolia). Such a but-for test does not necessarily create a moral highground. The US conquered Hawaii, so what should I say about it? Hawaii should be independent?

                      You somehow ignore the fact that Tibet had been administratively part of China for a long long time before the collapse of Qing dynasty in 1912. You can also say 'Tibet became independent for a short time because the Qing dynasty collapsed' or 'Tibet had to be retaken by CCP because KMT was too weak to take back Tibet'. How meaningless!

                      Have you heard of Mongolian or Manchu independence movement?:)) The Mongolian population in Inner Mongolia is two times of that living in Outer Mongolia. I have personally visited both places and from what I heard the Mongolians living in Outer Mongolia are quite envious of the economic achievement of Inner Mongolia under CCP's rule. In fact, some southern provinces of the Outer Monglia want to be ruled by CCP for economic reasons. Desire for independence cannot be assumed, and history+economy do matter a lot more than you think.

                      You can't just assume assume assume, or rely on claims of Da Lai Lama. Of course I shouldn't assume anything either.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by yeung3939 View Post
                        I just wanted to argue Tibetans wouldn't receive that much aid if Tibet became independent. Yes, CCP's aids are not charity but at least there are aids.
                        how would u know? based on what? with no backing i would say thats just a sweeping statement. my previous post already stated clearly that western countries on the whole provided more monetary and physical help to developing countries as compared to china.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by yeung3939 View Post
                          I am from Hong Kong, and I have free access to all available information (both Chinese and Western). I am well aware of the alternate views you are talking about.
                          since u didnt realise what i was talking about regarding the great leap forward, and how much the west had done to help others as compared to china, i think i can have some reservation on ur claim.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Aniki View Post
                            how would u know? based on what? with no backing i would say thats just a sweeping statement. my previous post already stated clearly that western countries on the whole provided more monetary and physical help to developing countries as compared to china.
                            Based on the percentage of GDP Western countries devote to international aids. I am not comparing Western countries' aid to Africa with CHinese aid to Africa. Instead, I am comparing Western countries aid to 3rd world countries (even with some strategic significance) with China's aid to Tibet. Unless the US is going to subsidize the independent Tibet in a 'cold war' way, there is no way Tibet can receive that much aid. The outer Mongolia is poor right? In what significant ways the Western countries are helping it?

                            Well, without CCP's money, the Tibetan railway and the Nepal-Tibet highway would be simply dreams.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Aniki View Post
                              since u didnt realise what i was talking about regarding the great leap forward, and how much the west had done to help others as compared to china, i think i can have some reservation on ur claim.
                              You talked about red guards. 'Red guards' and 'great leap forward' don't normally come together.

                              Also, you don't get my point.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by yeung3939 View Post
                                Even if your statement 'no pro-Chinese Tibetant would be capable of bringing Tibet back to China's fold' was true, this doesn't mean much. It could be because the old ruling class (very likely to be unwelcomed by the majority of Tibetan) managed to capitalize on Tibet's geographical isolation. It could be because Chinese government (KMT or CCP) doesn't bother to take Tibet back (just like Outer Mongolia). Such a but-for test does not necessarily create a moral highground. The US conquered Hawaii, so what should I say about it? Hawaii should be independent?
                                Duransara was burning. The live satellite footage from Tibet shows PLA troops in full battle kit supported by armored personel carriers, storming Tibetant domcilies to flush out resisters. Foreigners at the city reported that they have heard automatic weapons fire all night. I counted five pillars of smoke from I can only assume to be massive fires in the city miles away from the cameraman's position.

                                DO NOT insult my intellegence.

                                You somehow ignore the fact that Tibet had been administratively part of China for a long long time before the collapse of Qing dynasty in 1912. You can also say 'Tibet became independent for a short time because the Qing dynasty collapsed' or 'Tibet had to be retaken by CCP because KMT was too weak to take back Tibet'. How meaningless!
                                LOL!

                                Not so long ago a Chinese historian that write your textbooks stated in public that Tibet "was not a historical part of China." Did your government silence him too?

                                The Qing Dyansty garissoned a couple of thousand imperial troops at hand and inserted into the Tibetant court a number of Han officials acting on an "advisory" capacity. Rebellions were frequent and they were, unsurprisingly, UTTERLY DESPISED by the Tibetants. Which was why they declared independece the minute Chinese let slipped its grip on Tibet following the Qing collaspe. The history of Tibet as an independent political entity was FAR longer than the entire Qing Dyansty.

                                Have you heard of Mongolian or Manchu independence movement?:)) The Mongolian population in Inner Mongolia is two times of that living in Outer Mongolia. I have personally visited both places and from what I heard the Mongolians living in Outer Mongolia are quite envious of the economic achievement of Inner Mongolia under CCP's rule. In fact, some southern provinces of the Outer Monglia want to be ruled by CCP for economic reasons. Desire for independence cannot be assumed, and history+economy do matter a lot more than you think.
                                Utterly irrelevant. Talk to me when the Republic of Mongolia passed a popular referumdum to be annexed by China. Until then, this is more of the same nonesense that you have been shouting into my ears.

                                You can't just assume assume assume, or rely on claims of Da Lai Lama. Of course I shouldn't assume anything either.
                                I had "assumed" nothing. Everthing I have stated could be varified by any creditable source other than the hogwash coming out from Xinhua TV and Renming Daily. It's your government's word against the rest of the civilized world.

                                You, on the other hand, had ASSUMED that we who live in open societies have less acess to information, has less knowledge, and more biased then you yourself. You have ASSUMED that the CNN had a vicious anti-Chinese agenda and that they have engineered the reportage of what can only be described as a full blown rebellion, in spite of the fact that you are either UNABLE or UNWILLING to see news reports from BBC, CNN, the Associated Press, etc. on the crack down made by your government on Tibet, many of which made ON REAL TIME.
                                Last edited by Triple C; 21 Jul 08,, 08:09.
                                All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
                                -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X