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  • Originally posted by von Spreuth View Post
    Much in the same way that WWI can seen to have lead to WWII?
    Think the Tai Ping Rebellion had a lot more to do with that.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by von Spreuth View Post
      Do not know as much about your Chinese history as you claim then, do you?
      What? The Opium trade was only one of the remote causes. The anti-foreigner sentiment was more important, and such sentiment was more related to the Sino-Japanese War, scramble for concession (including German's acquisition of ShanDong), Missionary penetration, economic difficulties and finally Qing Government's inappropriate treatment of all these things.

      There was linkages between Boxer Uprising and Opium trade, but linking these two things together would lead you to ignore other more important less remote factors.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Triple C View Post
        Uh oh. ;)

        Friend, when a German had beat you to Chinese history, perhaps it is best to reconsider your beliefs.



        Ah yes, how dare those superstitious peasants not to bow to their betters! They were liberated from their religion, fed on butter cream and cheese in the collective farms, and they are not grateful?! The little buggers deserved to be shot.
        They are not liberated from their religion. They are liberated from the theocratic slavery. I am not saying they are necessarily happy with CCP's treatment.

        I just want to say you can't assume they are unhappy or prefer the old days to the CCP rule.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Triple C View Post
          Do you really need to be told why empires build communication nets to outposts on the fringes of their territory? And I suppose those Tibetants should trust their conquerors to do what's best for them?
          With respect, I must disagree with you, my friend.

          You are lucky, as you don't live in the old Tibet. The railway has incrased and will continue to help increase the living standard of ordinary Tibetans. No one dares to deny this. Not even Da Lai Lama. While I am in no position to speak for their interest, I don't believe you are in any better position than me.

          Don't use the term 'conqueror'. The problem is more complex than you think.
          Last edited by yeung3939; 20 Jul 08,, 18:07.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
            Think the Tai Ping Rebellion had a lot more to do with that.
            The causation between anti-foreigner feeling and Tai Ping Rebellion is more problematic, because the latter is at least norminally based on Christianity.

            Plus, the Tai Ping Rebellion was largely motivatd by discontent towards the Qing Court (just like other traditional peasant rebellion), but Boxer Uprising was more about discontent towards foreginers and Western civilization.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
              Think the Tai Ping Rebellion had a lot more to do with that.
              Fair enough. But it was not UN linked.

              I mean the muslims are still wanting revenge for the bloody crusades 700+ years ago.

              It all adds up, like steam in a boiler.

              Comment


              • Tibet Thread

                Originally posted by yeung3939 View Post
                Do you have any idea what that railway project is about?

                The planning started in as early as 1950's, and the railway (now completed) is really an engineering miracle like no other. It passes through a 5500m pass (higher than Everest Base camp), and is built on ice layers and in earthquake zones. Millions and Millions of dollars has been spent on it.

                Without the CCP's input, there is no way Tibet will enjoy the benefit of modernity. The old theocracy is surely against modernization of any kind. If you guys want to rely on cultural relativism, then I guess you would be happy to see Tibetan slaves dying for their owners. Investment does flood into Tibet after the completion of that railway. People's life has improved a lot. Of course this can't compensate any infringement of human rights, and any infringement of human rights must be condemned. But the Tibet case is not as simple as what CNN is trying to say.

                Also, boxers? Opium? These two words don't normally come together.
                Don´t present Tibet as charity project . If it would not situate on this particular real estate China would probably care less than about Zimbabve or Myanmar.
                If i only was so smart yesterday as my wife is today

                Minding your own biz is great virtue, but situation awareness saves lives - Dok

                Comment


                • yeung is partially correct about tibet, that CCP did brought reforms and modernisation to tibet. but as i said, CCP is no saint either. in the course of reformation they somertimes implemented harsh, one-liner policies that hurt the feelings of the locals. which would unquestionably raise objections. by freeing slaves and peasants from the control of local lords, CCP certainly hurt the pockets and power of some of the old timers there, and by the time they realised that the new govt isnt that easy to deal with, resentment probably grew among some of them. besides, the locals have no say in what reform is welcomed and what is not. what CCP did, the usual trick, was to gather peasants to tell whatever 'evil deeds' the headmen and monks did, then using a 'public trail' or similiar tactics(meaning no proper trail, no defendant statement etc) they confiscate the properties and 'give it back to the people', meaning it became state-owned. until now most if not all chinese dont own any land, their houses and properties are on a '70yr lease' from the govt, so there is literally no 'illegal trespassing' if the govt want to drive anyone away from their house or pull down any buildings, like for the sake of the coming olympics. they 'compensate'(nowadays being more reasonable in larger cities), but you'll have to obey.

                  as for the 'CCP built/modernised tibet unselfishly' part, thats only the obvious side of the bargain. in return, tibet is the place where the 2 main chinese rivers originated. as populated a country as china, and at the same time short on electricity and fresh water, they wouldnt want to lose stategic resource like water and hydro power. besides, being the highest place on earth, tibet and it's nearby mountains provide a natural 'great wall' that guard the backdoor of china. therefore i think putting in some efforts to make life easier on such a strategic location isnt too much to ask for, and definitely nothing much to brag about. u want the goodies, be prepared to pay for it.

                  Comment


                  • taiping rebellion, and for most rebellions that happened every two hundred yrs in china, is the natural result for the situation in china. although china is a big agricultural society and it's food production is largely enuff for its population, bad transport and communication in ancient time will, as time goes by, prevent some parts of the country from getting the necessary food in time, and hunger resulted in rebellions. so thruout chinese history, after having peace for every 150-200yrs or so, the population grew beyond the ability of the transportation system, rebellion erupts. traditionally its frequency is about the time the population reaches 100-120 mil ppl. after maize and potatoes came to china in the 16th century, this eruption was prolonged to about 300yrs, when the population reaches 400mil, and food transportation cannot meet demands.

                    on the other hand, the boxers rebellion was initially anti-government, not because of food but ethnicity.the last rulers of china was ethnic manchurians instead of the majority ethnic han, so it's like a group of 2mil manchus ruling the 400mil han population, and some of the han population definitely got pi--ed off (ironically, now the han majority cant or refuse to acknowledge this feeling of 'being managed by other ethnicity' among the minorities races). but the manchus successfully turned the attention of the boxers to 'red haired foreigners' instead of themselves. so if one examines the development of the boxers activities, their slogans was originally 'anti manchu revive ming'(ming was the last han dynasty), then it became 'anti foreigners support qing'.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by yeung3939 View Post
                      The causation between anti-foreigner feeling and Tai Ping Rebellion is more problematic, because the latter is at least norminally based on Christianity.
                      How about the weakening of the central authority so much that the Qings preferred to manipulate the Boxers rather than to crush them?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Aniki View Post
                        hope it is helpful. :)
                        Actually not. The 1st thing that should be obvious is that the stats don't agree between the various census. 2ndly, there were disasters (the Great Leap Forward and the GPCR) to which we have proof that they skewed their numbers left, right, and centre. Thus, even if some part of your census is true, we can never be sure. Lastly, what is an unnatural death?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                          How about the weakening of the central authority so much that the Qings preferred to manipulate the Boxers rather than to crush them?
                          The Boxer Uprising was initially directed towards foreginers not the Qing government. But you are right to point out the Qing government decided to manipulate the movement in order not to become the target of the movement.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Aniki View Post
                            yeung is partially correct about tibet, that CCP did brought reforms and modernisation to tibet. but as i said, CCP is no saint either. in the course of reformation they somertimes implemented harsh, one-liner policies that hurt the feelings of the locals. which would unquestionably raise objections. by freeing slaves and peasants from the control of local lords, CCP certainly hurt the pockets and power of some of the old timers there, and by the time they realised that the new govt isnt that easy to deal with, resentment probably grew among some of them. besides, the locals have no say in what reform is welcomed and what is not. what CCP did, the usual trick, was to gather peasants to tell whatever 'evil deeds' the headmen and monks did, then using a 'public trail' or similiar tactics(meaning no proper trail, no defendant statement etc) they confiscate the properties and 'give it back to the people', meaning it became state-owned. until now most if not all chinese dont own any land, their houses and properties are on a '70yr lease' from the govt, so there is literally no 'illegal trespassing' if the govt want to drive anyone away from their house or pull down any buildings, like for the sake of the coming olympics. they 'compensate'(nowadays being more reasonable in larger cities), but you'll have to obey.

                            as for the 'CCP built/modernised tibet unselfishly' part, thats only the obvious side of the bargain. in return, tibet is the place where the 2 main chinese rivers originated. as populated a country as china, and at the same time short on electricity and fresh water, they wouldnt want to lose stategic resource like water and hydro power. besides, being the highest place on earth, tibet and it's nearby mountains provide a natural 'great wall' that guard the backdoor of china. therefore i think putting in some efforts to make life easier on such a strategic location isnt too much to ask for, and definitely nothing much to brag about. u want the goodies, be prepared to pay for it.
                            Obviously, CCP's assistance is not charity work, but the money and railway do increase the living standard of Tibetans a lot. Putting cultural and nationalistic things aside, who is going to help Tibetans if Tibet became independent? Da Lai Lama? Westerners?

                            If Westerners were that concerned with the living standard of people in remote places, there wouldn't be starvation in Africa.

                            Both CCP and Western government's policies are startegic in nature. Without information about what the majority of tibetans actually think, there is no moral highland.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Aniki View Post
                              taiping rebellion, and for most rebellions that happened every two hundred yrs in china, is the natural result for the situation in china. although china is a big agricultural society and it's food production is largely enuff for its population, bad transport and communication in ancient time will, as time goes by, prevent some parts of the country from getting the necessary food in time, and hunger resulted in rebellions. so thruout chinese history, after having peace for every 150-200yrs or so, the population grew beyond the ability of the transportation system, rebellion erupts. traditionally its frequency is about the time the population reaches 100-120 mil ppl. after maize and potatoes came to china in the 16th century, this eruption was prolonged to about 300yrs, when the population reaches 400mil, and food transportation cannot meet demands.

                              on the other hand, the boxers rebellion was initially anti-government, not because of food but ethnicity.the last rulers of china was ethnic manchurians instead of the majority ethnic han, so it's like a group of 2mil manchus ruling the 400mil han population, and some of the han population definitely got pi--ed off (ironically, now the han majority cant or refuse to acknowledge this feeling of 'being managed by other ethnicity' among the minorities races). but the manchus successfully turned the attention of the boxers to 'red haired foreigners' instead of themselves. so if one examines the development of the boxers activities, their slogans was originally 'anti manchu revive ming'(ming was the last han dynasty), then it became 'anti foreigners support qing'.
                              The movement was initially anti-government. It was anti-foreigner in nature from the Day one, and some of the rebels supported the slogun 'anti Manchu revive ming' largely because they felt manchu couldn't deal with foreign pressure. The real target was foreign pressure, and that was why the Qing government could turn the attention to elsewhere.

                              The Taiping rebellion was, in contrast, anti-government from day one. The movement was at least norminally motivated by the desire for thorough social reforms and even a new regime.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by von Spreuth View Post
                                Fair enough. But it was not UN linked.

                                I mean the muslims are still wanting revenge for the bloody crusades 700+ years ago.

                                It all adds up, like steam in a boiler.
                                Memories of the past are often imagined myths. Not even the Israeli-Palestine conflict is an exception. Memories and hatred are often psychological reaction to the current state of affairs.

                                Comment

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