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  • #91
    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    They termed it population loss. Have you ever considered that people simply decided not to have children? Given that 15 years were WWII history where there were no census, it is highly dubious that anyone can state with any certainty what China's population was doing.

    This is the 1st, last, and only time in history where historians classified non-births as deaths. I have not come across any other population statistic that included the term population loss (meaning including non-births). Every other time in genocidic research, we have established DEATHS. China is the only example where they measure POPULATION LOSS. In fact, do a google on the papers themselves, none of them will ever rerference DEATHS.
    i pray to differ. the documents u read about was probably from the edited version done in early 1980s(probably 1984). in that particular document, the average population growth was 10+mil every yr from 1949 to 1959 (=backdating 1958), then in 1960-61, population decreased by 10mil, 1961-62, population decreased by another 4mil. bear in mind this is 'net decrease', what that documents never shown, was the actual birth rate and death rate. the 'usual' birth rate at that time was ard 32/1000 and death rate around 15/1000 up till 59. the population in 1949 was ard 550mil. some simple calculations and u will realise its not about 'non-births' or 'population losses'.

    the miracle is, apart from the 3 ys coinciding with the 'great starvation', in 1961-62 population growth returned to normal, all the way up to 1979. anyway i dont see the connection about not wanting to have children in that particular 3 yrs. and please remember that chinese do have a 'residential record' system, that no chinese could leave his hometown for more than 5 days without permission. they cant eat their meals at the local community canteen if they dont have some form of identification. in fact that system still exist today and people in china are obliged to apply a 'temporary resident permit' whenever they leave home for more than 5 days, from the local police at their destination. i dont think it'll be too difficult to count permanent residents.

    besides the edited version of the census, there were however, also other original quotes from their census board which were done immediately the yr after the 1958-61 starvation. if u dont mind i hog the thread, i could look back into my old files and put up the two for comparison, with ur permission of course.

    some background story: due to the fear for population loss in times of war, mao started a campaign (direct copy from the russians) call 'heroic mothers'. females who gave birth to 10 children could go and meet mao in beijing, all fees catered for. the campaigned lasted from 1950-55 (korean war).

    Comment


    • #92
      And do post them because for certain I can tell you that they are not from China ... because China did not report them. Baring that, then do pray tell, how accurate can the data be?

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by yeung3939 View Post
        Are you talking about the Cultural Revolution? The Cultural Revolution is certainly a disaster. Stupid CCP.
        nope, its not about the cultural revolution my friend, it's about starving more than 30mil to deaths becos the govt made a wrong move, a wrong policy. thats more than the total deaths of russians in the entire World War, more than the total casualty japanese inflicted on the chinese in the 15yrs of sino-japanese war. all done in 3 yrs, very efficient, hail the chinese CCP.

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
          And do post them because for certain I can tell you that they are not from China ... because China did not report them. Baring that, then do pray tell, how accurate can the data be?
          ok, here u go. btw there were 3 major census that took place in china, 1964, after the starvation, 1982, after the cultural revolution, and 2000, the recent one.

          1, census of 1982, corrected by the govt
          year is year, popul measured in 1000's. birth, death and grow are all per 1000.

          year popul k birth death grow maternity rate
          1949 541670 36.00 20.00 16.00 6.14
          1950 551960 37.00 18.00 19.00 5.81
          1951 563000 37.80 17.80 20.00 5.70
          1952 574820 37.99 17.00 20.99 6.47
          1953 587960 37.00 14.00 23.00 6.05
          1954 602660 38.19 13.18 25.00 6.28
          1955 614650 32.18 12.28 19.90 6.26
          1956 627800 33.67 11.40 21.39 5.85
          1957 642380 34.03 10.80 23.23 6.41
          1958 653460 29.22 11.98 17.24 5.68
          *alert*
          1959 660120 24.78 14.59 10.19 4.30
          1960 662070 20.86 17.91 02.95 4.02
          1961 664570 18.02 14.24 03.78 3.29
          *alert*
          1962 672950 22.63 10.02 12.61 6.02
          1963 691720 40.00 12.11 27.89 7.50
          1964 704990 30.68 11.50 19.18 6.18
          1965 725380 38.42 09.50 28.92 6.08
          1966 742060 31.82 08.83 22.99 6.26
          1967 760320 33.04 08.43 24.61 5.31
          1968 781980 36.70 08.21 28.49 6.45
          1969 803350 35.35 08.03 27.32 5.72
          1970 825420 35.07 07.60 27.47 5.81
          1971 847790 34.42 07.32 27.10 5.44
          1972 867270 30.59 07.61 22.98 4.98
          1973 887610 30.49 07.04 23.45 4.54
          1974 904090 25.91 07.34 18.57 4.17
          1975 919700 24.59 07.32 17.27 3.57
          1976 932670 21.35 07.25 14.10 3.24
          1977 947740 23.03 06.87 16.16 2.84
          1978 961590 20.86 06.25 14.61 2.72
          1979 975420 20.59 06.21 14.38 2.75

          2, the census of 1964, birth rate and death rate not given
                        
          1958 659940 (aniki note: baseline year)
          year popul growth actual (calculated by scholars)
          *alert*
          1959 672070 +10.19 +18.38      
          *alert*
          1960 662070 -04.57 -14.88     
          1961 664570 +03.78 -05.25     
          1962 672950 +26.99 +21.80     
          1963 691720 +33.33 +27.89     
          1964 704990 +27.64 +19.18     

          explaination:
          both are official chinese publications

          at first look it seems hard to compare, cos the 1964 census got no birth rate and death rate, only the net growth. but since the argument is that 'there werent starvation or unnatural deaths', and it is likely that in times of peace lifespan and medical care tends to improve, we could safely say that the general decreasing 'death rate' trend in the 1982 census should be relatively true.

          now as we can see, the 1964 census state popul in 1959 as 672070k, as oppose to 660120k in 1984 census. this is in-line with the population trend in the last decade. fom here, the numbers are all different. a simple calculation will tell us that the 1982 census delibrately lowers the birth rate in that particular 3 yrs, and slightly increase the death rate, to show that decrease in popul was due to 'population losses'('not having babies') instead of 'unnatural deaths'(ie., starvation).

          it is hard to believe that birth rate actually decreased in that few yrs but abruptly shot up to 40/1000 in 1964. and as mentioned b4, there were no wars, no disasters as claimed by the "unborn population" theories, and lifespan should be increasing due to better medicare, how could death rate suddenly increase in that few yrs? the sign of stats manupulation is so bloody obvious.

          hope it is helpful. :)

          Comment


          • #95
            on the whole, the 1982 census starts changing stats from year 1958 onwards, thats 653460k compared to 1964 census, 659940k. so abt 6 mil popul erased from the book for no obvious reasons, other than just to make the numbers look nicer and CCP less incompetent in running the country.

            sorry for the edit:

            now allow me to post the 2000 census, this time the chinese govt decided not to cover up and come slightly 'cleaner'.

            1949 541670 36.00 20.00 16.00 6.14
            1950 551960 37.00 18.00 19.00 5.81
            1951 563000 37.80 17.80 20.00 5.70
            1952 574820 37.00 17.00 20.00 6.47
            1953 587960 37.00 14.00 23.00 6.05
            1954 602660 37.97 13.18 24.79 6.28
            1955 614650 32.60 12.28 20.32 6.26
            1956 628280 31.90 11.40 20.50 5.85
            1957 646530 34.03 10.80 23.23 6.41
            *alert
            1958 659940 29.22 11.98 17.24 5.68
            1959 672070 24.78 14.59 10.19 4.30
            1960 662070 20.86 25.43 -4.57 4.02
            1961 658590 18.02 14.24 03.78 3.29
            *alert*
            1962 672950 37.01 10.02 26.99 6.02
            1963 691720 43.37 10.04 33.33 7.50
            1964 704990 39.14 11.50 27.64 6.18

            u can get an excel sheet from this source: http://www.cpirc.org.cn/tjsj/list/popindex-1.xls

            so now we can see that during 1958-59, instead of the 10-11/1000 deaths under normal circumstances, we had an increase to 14.59/1000, thats abt 3mil 'extra' deaths. from 1959-60, death rate shot up to 25.43/1000, instead of 10-11/1000 under normal circumstances, thats extra 10 mil deaths. then btw1960-61, another 3 mil extras. so at least now the chinese govt admitted 'unnatural deaths' of about 16 mil, instead of claiming them as 'unborn population'. not particularly honest but at least it shed some light into the whole incident.
            Last edited by Aniki; 18 Jul 08,, 11:21.

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
              I am so sick of this crap that everyone takes for the truth. The Chinese population did NOT go down by 30 million. In fact, it went up!
              Only because the birth rate exceeded 30 million?

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by yeung3939 View Post
                Yeah, you are damn right.

                Western medias never lie. Not even when they portrayed Nepalese police's arresting Tibetans as Chinese soliders' brutal oppression. Not even when they portrayed the indiscriminate killing and vendalism as 'peaceful protest'.

                Are you really sure Tibet has not been part of China? Have a look at the Qing and Ming dynasty history please. The han-ization started in the 8th century, and TIbetans actually accepted Han-ization happily.

                Are you really sure Tibetans lived happily before the communists came? The life expectancy of Tibetans was only something like 35 yrs old, and it is 60+ now. Plus most Tibetans lived as slaves, while Dai Lai Lama and his supporters lived as slave owners.

                Are you really sure "Tibetans" want independence? I support a referendum, but plz don't assume the majority of Tibetans support independence. This is a really unfounded assumption.

                You just trust the Western media too much. Many medias such as BBC did a good job, but CNN.... well...

                Everyone is just portraying the communist party as an evil demon.
                sorry yeung, u dont even knew my agenda or my point of view, so no point assuming things. as for tibetians, i'm well aware of their history, at least more than one liners, and also their cause. but personally, i cant be bothered. but CCP aint no saint either.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Aniki View Post
                  sorry yeung, u dont even knew my agenda or my point of view, so no point assuming things. as for tibetians, i'm well aware of their history, at least more than one liners, and also their cause. but personally, i cant be bothered. but CCP aint no saint either.


                  But I am afraid you are only aware of the 'cause' of those Tibetans in exile who lost their rights and privileges and finally decided to leave Tibet after CCP takeover. They have good but not necessarily morally 'correct' reasons to dislike CCP rule. You can't totally rely on what they say.

                  The problem is no one knows what those Tibetans currently living in Tibet think. Yet most westerners and western media make biased assumption, and keep saying it is a war between opporessed and evil demon.

                  The stupid CCP is of course not saint, but it does manage to raise the life expectancy of Tibetans from 30 (The data provided by the so-called Tibetan government) to 60+. The CCP has also built a railway that brought a lot of investment into Tibet.

                  Apart from this, the performance of some Western Media (especially CNN) is very disappointing. They just kept distorting things, selectively reporting things and making unsupported if not racist assertions.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by yeung3939 View Post
                    The CCP has also built a railway that brought a lot of investment into Tibet.
                    The Brits built railways all over India. You can bet you bottom dollar not many, if ANY Indians got rich off it, but you can bet the same dollar that the Brits did.

                    And how many Boxers got to be millionaires from the investments Britain made in opium production in China?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by von Spreuth View Post
                      The Brits built railways all over India. You can bet you bottom dollar not many, if ANY Indians got rich off it, but you can bet the same dollar that the Brits did.

                      And how many Boxers got to be millionaires from the investments Britain made in opium production in China?
                      Do you have any idea what that railway project is about?

                      The planning started in as early as 1950's, and the railway (now completed) is really an engineering miracle like no other. It passes through a 5500m pass (higher than Everest Base camp), and is built on ice layers and in earthquake zones. Millions and Millions of dollars has been spent on it.

                      Without the CCP's input, there is no way Tibet will enjoy the benefit of modernity. The old theocracy is surely against modernization of any kind. If you guys want to rely on cultural relativism, then I guess you would be happy to see Tibetan slaves dying for their owners. Investment does flood into Tibet after the completion of that railway. People's life has improved a lot. Of course this can't compensate any infringement of human rights, and any infringement of human rights must be condemned. But the Tibet case is not as simple as what CNN is trying to say.

                      Also, boxers? Opium? These two words don't normally come together.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by yeung3939 View Post
                        Also, boxers? Opium? These two words don't normally come together.
                        Do not know as much about your Chinese history as you claim then, do you?

                        Comment


                        • The Opium Wars was from 1839 to 1860. The Boxer Rebellion was 1899-1901

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by von Spreuth View Post
                            Do not know as much about your Chinese history as you claim then, do you?
                            Uh oh. ;)

                            Friend, when a German had beat you to Chinese history, perhaps it is best to reconsider your beliefs.

                            Without the CCP's input, there is no way Tibet will enjoy the benefit of modernity.
                            Ah yes, how dare those superstitious peasants not to bow to their betters! They were liberated from their religion, fed on butter cream and cheese in the collective farms, and they are not grateful?! The little buggers deserved to be shot.
                            All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
                            -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                              The Opium Wars was from 1839 to 1860. The Boxer Rebellion was 1899-1901
                              China's defeat in both (Opium) wars forced the government to have to tolerate the opium trade. Britain forced the Chinese government into signing the Treaty of Nanking and the Treaty of Tianjin, also known as the Unequal Treaties, which included provisions for the opening of additional ports to foreign trade, for fixed tariffs, the recognition of both countries as equal in correspondence, and the giving of Hong Kong to Britain. The British also gained extraterritorial rights. Several countries followed Britain and sought similar agreements with China. Many Chinese found these agreements humiliating and these sentiments are considered to have contributed to the Taiping Rebellion (1850-1864), the Boxer Rebellion (1899-1901), and the downfall of the Qing Dynasty in 1912.

                              Opium Wars - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
                              Much in the same way that WWI can seen to have lead to WWII?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by yeung3939 View Post
                                Do you have any idea what that railway project is about?

                                The planning started in as early as 1950's, and the railway (now completed) is really an engineering miracle like no other. It passes through a 5500m pass (higher than Everest Base camp), and is built on ice layers and in earthquake zones. Millions and Millions of dollars has been spent on it.

                                Without the CCP's input, there is no way Tibet will enjoy the benefit of modernity. The old theocracy is surely against modernization of any kind. If you guys want to rely on cultural relativism, then I guess you would be happy to see Tibetan slaves dying for their owners. Investment does flood into Tibet after the completion of that railway. People's life has improved a lot. Of course this can't compensate any infringement of human rights, and any infringement of human rights must be condemned. But the Tibet case is not as simple as what CNN is trying to say.
                                Do you really need to be told why empires build communication nets to outposts on the fringes of their territory? And I suppose those Tibetants should trust their conquerors to do what's best for them?
                                All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
                                -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

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