China-Tibet Threads

[cdude]

The Nuremberg trials, the Nuremberg Conventions, the UN Charter, the numerous human rights laws we have passed have made that as a crime and we could no longer do such a thing or was that only applicable to Germany and specific nations?

Godwin's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

At the end of the day, it's always the nazis

[Officer of Engineers]

And the Chinese have not engaged in double talk?

Four Chinese armies is pretty blunt talk. No matter what they say, those four armies always keep their options open. Until they start withdrawing those armies, no matter what they say, you have to keep those armies in mind as the final arbitrator.

That is not the same with the DL. You need to be able to trust what he says, even if he says he'll drown a 1000 Tibetans to get one Han-Chinese. Say what you will about Hitler, Stalin, and Mao. When they say they'll come get you, believe them.

You are right that DL is not the one to up the ante because it requires a certain rutheless and apathy to morality.

You can't beg for your freedom. It has to be earned through blood. Sometimes, fighting against your oppressors (US). Others, you become more powerful than your overseers (India). The way Tibet did it (Qing got busy elsewhere) doesn't work. It invites more powerful neigbours to take over (Saxons over post-Roman Britons)

The Chinese does not need to up the ante because they have already done it. They have already flooded the region with Han migrants in hopes of drowning the Tibetan people out.

Somewhat misleading. Immigrant families do outnumber Tibetans but there are now more Tibetans than during DL's rule and the immigrants are made up of both Han and Hui which are mistakenly lumped together. Tibetans are no longer the majority but they do form the plurality in Tibet.

Does not mean that their culture is not under threat but the Tibetan people are not in any danger of dying out.

The Nuremberg trials, the Nuremberg Conventions, the UN Charter, the numerous human rights laws we have passed have made that as a crime and we could no longer do such a thing or was that only applicable to Germany and specific nations?

Wake me up when we have an army willing to take the Chinese to court. The Khmer Rouge, the Russians, the Congolese, and the British (Bengal famine) have not been brought to justice.

The way I see it, the longer we keep supporting the DL and the Tibetan people, the more the Chinese realize that their actions were not condonable and they will have an accounting one day. They cannot simply presume that the world would turn a blind eye to it and give a free pass to China.

When are we going to give Ontario back to the Algonquins? Or California to Mexico?

India was lucky because we didn't have the migration so an armed struggle would be seen as war, not as genocide or ethnic cleansing. So any violence would be just warfare. For Tibetans, they cannot even do an insurgency because they have already lost one thing that was inherent in others, manpower.

As compared to the Chechens? Eighty percent of the population was deported to Siberia during WWII. Not all 80% returned.

The only way Tibetans can ever have freedom is to have the assistance.

How much assistance did the Chechens, or even the Taliban got?

The same way that US got its independence, the assistance of France when France used its naval power to block the British navy from reinforcing its troops and allowing the Americans to use its numerically superior forces to defeat the Britain.

The Brits left simply because they got tired of bleeding. Do you actually think the US had a chance against the Napoleonic Armies? In this context, the Tibetans cannot do this job half ass. They have to be willing to outbleed the Chinese. Within the Chechen context, that means 200,000 freezing to death and cities will be like Grozny, a wasteland and the Tibetans will have to out-monster the Chinese, doing Beslans, making Tibet unwelcoming to Chinese families.

Tibetans cannot get their freedom on their own. The deck is too heavily stacked against them.

If there's a will, there's a way. Too many examples of others doing with less.

[Doktor]

I wonder, how much British blood Canada spilled for her independence?

[cdude]

I wonder, how much British blood Canada spilled for her independence?

A more fair question is how much British blood Northern Ireland spilled for her independence?

Oh, false question. It aint independent yet.

[Officer of Engineers]

I wonder, how much British blood Canada spilled for her independence?

Like I said, some countries can no longer be controlled and thus must be granted independence. Canada's moment came at Vimy Ridge where the Brits could no longer dictate how the Canadians were going to fight ... or the Canadians go home

[Officer of Engineers]

Guess what? DL and the Tibetans don't want to pay the price with innocent blood.

Tibet's history is filled with spilt innocent blood. From the time they conquered the Tang Dynasty to the first DL calling in the Mongols.

DL and Tibetans are seeking an alternate solution without such bloodshed and yes they have not found it that would permanently scar their collective souls for generations to come.

Or hardened them for generations to come.

Since you brought up Chechnya, the Chechens have paid such a huge price for it that some people wonder whether it was worth it or not.

The price has been paid and Russian immigration practically doesn't exist. Was it worth it? I don't know but they don't have to pay that price again for generations to come.

The Xians have tried violence and it didn't work because China responded with more massive migration and simply engaged in ethnic cleansing by drowning the numbers out.

First of all, they're not Xians, they're Uyghars. Xian Jiang has a number of other significant ethnic groups such as the Hui and Mongols. They side with the CCP against the rebels.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang#Demographics gives somewhat a breakdown of where they live and how. Not surprisingly, the Hans concentrate around the urban centres where their skills are needed. The Uyghars have the run of the rest of the province where Hans can be counted on one hand.

The Tibetans are now outnumbered

Well, this is surprising

Tibet Autonomous Region - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

90%+ of Tibet's population is Tibetan. Now, I know what the DL claims and it may be true that there are a hell of a lot of Han and Hui in Tibet but according to this, they have no rights in Tibet. They're businessmen, not migrants and have no dwelling rights in Tibet. The Tibetan Governor can kick them out anytime he chooses.

and if they engaged in the kind of warfare, they would only lose it like Serbia lost Kosovo

First of all, the KLA only won because of NATO airpower and Miolosevic's cowardice.

and end up like the Palestinians. See how the Palestinians fare nowadays.

They got the Israelis negotiating their state rights.

[lemontree]

Your understanding of either "Chinese economy" or "dependent" is a little bit off.

But I just want to point out that "a trillion dollar economy" does not mean much anymore. Thinks about crude oil, ~100 USD/B yesterday, was about 20 USD/B ten years ago. Think about it.

Just to add a recent Charlie Rose interview with your finance minister. He seems to have a more realistic view of where Indian economy is.

Charlie Rose - Palaniappan Chidambaram

Come on, just because I gave a short retort to your post, does not mean I am ignorant of the other facts and details.

[lemontree]

How many has the DL incited since 1959?

He cannot incite any without the help of India.
India stopped assisting the Tibetan rebels in return for China stopping assistance to the Naga rebel groups.

If he wants to start an insurgency then he shall have to find another base.

[cdude]

北京簋街 汉族餐饮店与藏族摊贩群殴 - YouTube

A recent fight between Tibetan vendors and Han vendors in Beijing. If you don't know, Tibetans are on the near side throwing bricks.

Cops are useless as usual.

There was this one dude trying to drag the conversation to Nazi Germany (this is internet, so no surprise).
When was the last time Jews kicking asses in Berlin?

[cdude]

For this particular fight, I am with the Tibetans. These guys are good people, living an honest life in Beijing. The cops could've been more decisive in de-escalating the situation.

�Œ—京�‹�— �‰�—�餐饮�—�Ž�—��—��‘Š贩群殴 - YouTube

A recent fight between Tibetan vendors and Han vendors in Beijing. If you don't know, Tibetans are on the near side throwing bricks.

Cops are useless as usual.

There was this one dude trying to drag the conversation to Nazi Germany (this is internet, so no surprise).
When was the last time Jews kicking asses in Berlin?

[cataphract]

India stopped assisting the Tibetan rebels in return for China stopping assistance to the Naga rebel groups.

Did not know this. I thought the cessation of suppport had more to do with the border dispute negotiations going on at that time. Could you please provide a source sir?

[lemontree]

Did not know this. I thought the cessation of suppport had more to do with the border dispute negotiations going on at that time. Could you please provide a source sir?

Read this article, it shall give you some idea of the north-east insurgent groups.
Of suspicions, rivalries and double crossings | The Asian Age

Another source:

The Chinese in their endeavour to normalise relations with India have been assuring New Delhi that they have stopped all aid to the insurgents in the northeast. It has been discouraging insurgent groups from trekking to China for receiving instruction in guerilla tactics.12 Pakistani analysts have taken this policy change as a shift in China’s position in South Asia. They have written that ‘from a policy of granting open support to Pakistan vis-a-vis India during the 1960s and 1970s, China’s strategic priorities changed in South Asia during 1980s and 1990s. From an active hostile relationship with India, China changed its India’s policy to passive hostility and finally neutrality".13 Nevertheless, India is yet to be convinced about Chinese intentions.

http://www.idsa-india.org/an-nov-00-8.html

[doppelganger]

Text of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh�s statement to the media on Monday on Chinese Premier Li Keqiang�s visit to India:

It is an honour for me to welcome Premier Li on his first official visit to India. It has been an immense pleasure to get to know him personally. I sincerely appreciate his reaching out to me on his first day in office and his choosing India as his first foreign destination as Premier.

Starting yesterday evening, Premier Li and I have had wide-ranging and candid discussions covering all matters of mutual interest and concern. I am delighted that there are so many areas of convergence between us and on which there is a great deal of meeting of minds. Most importantly, we agreed that the relationship between our two countries is of growing significance and essential for our peaceful development and sustained economic growth, as well as for stability and prosperity in our region and the world.

India and China are two civilizational neighbours and have lived in peace through the ages. We have had our differences in more recent times, but over the last 25 years, we have steadily built a mutually beneficial relationship. The basis for continued growth and expansion of our ties is peace and tranquility on our borders. While seeking an early resolution of the boundary question, Premier Li and I agreed that this must continue to be preserved.

We also took stock of lessons learnt from the recent incident in the Western Sector, when existing mechanisms proved their worth. We tasked our Special Representatives to consider further measures that may be needed to maintain peace and tranquility along the border. We agreed that our Special Representatives will meet soon to continue discussions, seeking early agreement on a framework for a fair, reasonable and mutually acceptable boundary settlement.

I also reiterated to Premier Li India�s concerns about the effects on lower riparians of activities in the upper reaches of our shared rivers. It would be useful for the mandate of our Expert Level Mechanism to be expanded to include information sharing on upstream development projects on these rivers. I am glad that we have agreed to expand cooperation on trans-border rivers. It would also be useful for India and China to collaborate on a better understanding of the stresses on our shared Himalayan ecosystem.

I shared with Premier Li my view that the rise of China and India is good for the world and that the world has enough space to accommodate the growth aspirations of both our peoples. To make this a reality, it is important to build understanding between our two peoples. We agreed that both sides must work to strengthen greater trust and confidence, which, in turn, will permit much larger co-operation.

Economic cooperation constitutes a very important part of our relationship and the growth potential of our two economies can provide the engine for greater cooperation.There are many ongoing areas of co-operation that we will carry forward as outlined in the Joint Statement. I conveyed to Premier Li our concerns about the trade deficit and sought increased market access to China for our exports and investments. I also invited increased Chinese involvement in the vast opportunities in our infrastructure and manufacturing sectors.

The rapid development of our economies has opened up new opportunities for economic cooperation bilaterally, in our region and globally, which our Strategic Economic Dialogue will identify andexplore. We have also discussed the possibility of infrastructure development to link India�s North Eastern region with Bangladesh, Myanmar, China and other countries in the South East Asian region.

Premier Li and I also used the opportunity to review the rapidly evolving global political and economic situation and resolved to strengthen our strategic communication and dialogue on these issues. We also agreed that we have a shared interest in an open multilateral trading system and in combating protectionism.

Before I conclude, let me say again what a pleasure it has been to welcome Premier Li amongst us. I am sure that his leadership will go a long way in strengthening the relationship between our two countries and extending it to new frontiers. I look forward to seeing him again very soon and I have also accepted his gracious invitation to visit China at the earliest opportunity.

http://www.firstpost.com/world/full-...it-799463.html

[doppelganger]

China: PM Singh takes tough stand on border incursion

New Delhi, May 21: India on Monday clearly told China that it can not accept disturbance of the status quo on the border area and incidents like the recent incursion in Depsang could derail bilateral ties.

The new stance was asserted by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh after he met his visiting Chinese counterpart Li Keqiang, saying the basis for continued growth and expansion of ties between India and China is peace and tranquility on the borders.

Singh said the two countries, following a frank discussion, took stock of lessons learnt from the recent incident in the western sector. He, however, mentioned that the existing mechanisms helped in diffusing the latest border tension.

The focus on peace on the border areas is a significant shift in New Delhi's policy towards Beijing for so far the former looked eager not to let the border friction hinder cooperation in other spheres and it seems to be a clear consequence of the Ladakh incursion last month. The government, although said then that it was a local issue, but its strong stance now reflects the seriousness of the issue.

Both India and China have agreed to quicken steps to resolve the border differences. India's National Security Advisor Shivshankar Menon and his Chinese counterpart Yang Jiechi will meet in the next six weeks to take the boundary talks forward. India will push for clarificication of the controversial Line of Actual Control. The two sides have already exchanged maps in the middle sector and have shown maps in the western sector. India will seek early agreement on a "fair, reasonable and mutually acceptable boundary settlement", Singh said.

Meanwhile, the Chinese Premier is set to arrive in Mumbai on Tuesday.

China: PM Singh takes tough stand on border incursion - Oneindia News

[cataphract]

Read this article, it shall give you some idea of the north-east insurgent groups.
Of suspicions, rivalries and double crossings | The Asian Age

Another source:

Security of India�s Northeast: External Linkages

Good stuff. I didn't know China's support for northeast insurgencies was so widespread. In reply, how could the RAW only manage to arm the Karens in Burma? There was enough diversity in Yunnan and enough devastation from the Cultural Revolution in the 1970s to foment a few insurgencies. A wasted opportunity IMO.