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  • Originally posted by Skywatcher View Post
    Point of order: We Catholics don't think the Pope came down from Heaven. I think you're confusing things.
    There are some Catholics that believe that the Pope has the mandate of Heaven and I have met some of them. of course I met several Catholics that don't believe the Pope to be anything except a flawed man elevated to the highest position. But the point remains that Tibetans are not the only ones who believe in a living god.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
      The Tibetans did spill their blood only to lose. If they fight any more, they will be wiped out.
      They're being wiped out now. They're now the largest minority in Tibet. The Han and the Hui now make up the majority.

      Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
      Whether you like it or not, a large majority of Tibetans calls him their living god.
      Doesn't make it true.

      Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
      How is it any different from the hundreds of millions of Chinese people who thought Mao was god?
      They didn't. They thought of him as Elvis but even Elvis wasn't a god. (Please tell me you're old enough to know what I'm talking about when I said Elvis)

      Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
      Or the 1.2 billion people that think the Pope comes from the heavens. Your singular outing and hatred of this Tibetan leader in contrast to numerous Chinese leaders, including Deng, leaves me and others perplexed when in light of, Dalai Lama may be only responsible for thousands of deaths, but Deng and others were responsible for millions of deaths and were monsters in their time, employing greater and more brutal tactics than Dalai Lama would employ.
      Actually, I got someone to compare so that you will understand my distaste for the man. Musharraf when he left the NLI to die alone and forgotten.

      Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
      They have bled. It is just that you don't want to recognize that they did.
      Two uprisings that were ill conceived, ill executed, and nothing after that. And then, these riots. Riots. To the point where the Tibetans have turned their one real ally in all of China, the Hui, against them.

      Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
      Ok then by your standards, you might as well say that the Serbs were correct to kick the Kosovos out or the Serbs correct to kick the Bosnians out. After all, Bosnians and Kosovans were screaming hard for Western intervention in which they got.
      The Albanians and the Bosnians were making the Serbs pay through the nose to the point that it required battalion level action to evict them. And it is NOT my standards, it is the history of the region. The 1st DL asked the Mongols to get rid of his enemies for him and you know as well as I what that meant.

      Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
      Tibetans never had that chance.
      They always have the chance. They still have that chance. If the drug trade can flourish, so can an insurgency.

      Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
      There was a Tibetan Army. It got destroyed. All DL had was his people who were scattered all over the globe. At least, he did not engage in the kind of warfare employed by LTTE whose tactics have harmed Tamils far more than they could imagined.
      How about the NVA/VC? How about the Chechens? What about the Mujahadeen? Hell, what about the Taliban?

      Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
      I know you don't like DL but you don't speak for millions of Indians in which DL has the support of. Otherwise DL would have not been allowed in India. Guess what? Their say matters a lot more than what you think and there is not a frigging thing you can do about it.
      Let me know when an Indian Army marches north.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
        There are some Catholics that believe that the Pope has the mandate of Heaven and I have met some of them. of course I met several Catholics that don't believe the Pope to be anything except a flawed man elevated to the highest position. But the point remains that Tibetans are not the only ones who believe in a living god.
        The Pope is the Vicar of Christ on Earth. Having the "Mandate of Heaven", as I understand it, implies some sort of temporal authority,which hasn't happened since Garibaldi ended the Papal States.

        Comment


        • Colonel sir, please go back in the thread and see who referred to the DL as Living God first. You did.

          I was merely commenting on your post of the Tibetan atrocities as my perception (still existing) that you, a very wise and seasoned military man, has been taken in by the political propaganda of the Chinese state.

          Even callow 19 year old Indians recognize the 5 cent Chinese army spreading across the world with the Party mandated agenda.

          Incidentally Colonel sir, I have met the Dalain Lama once face to face at a prayer gathering in Dharmshala.

          I still say sir, you and I are but single men, with a right to our opinions.

          But so are the tens of thousands of devotees I saw that day with steadfast devotion in their eyes.

          So you may think he is snake oil salesman. I think he is a charismatic leader. Thousands rever him as a living God.

          Its called faith sir. Logic has no place in it. Nor real politic.

          Now about fighting for their land, or not, or the means adopted, BM has already pointed out, as I did, that they have fought and bled.

          Now if they fight they will be finished. There has to be another way.

          My point still unanswered sir, to which I would respectfully ask for your views.

          If the Western armies have rallied together and gone around the globe fighting for the oppressed, and trying to change oppressive regimes nad bring in a semblence of order and self rule, why have they left out Tibet?

          You ask me to wake you up when the Indian Army marches North. If we do, it will be for fighting for what is ours and self preservation.

          Meanwhile, when is the West going to recognize the plight of the Tibetans?

          So what if its China you are up against? You've gone up against Russia, surely this should be an order of magnitude easier .....

          Comment


          • Originally posted by doppelganger View Post
            Colonel sir, please go back in the thread and see who referred to the DL as Living God first. You did.
            And I stated that traditional buddhism would not have accepted such.

            Originally posted by doppelganger View Post
            I was merely commenting on your post of the Tibetan atrocities as my perception (still existing) that you, a very wise and seasoned military man, has been taken in by the political propaganda of the Chinese state.
            I'm stating history. The DL came from a Tibet where human skin, starvation, serfdom, was the norm. There is nothing propagandous about the actual history of the country.

            I've also stated that the DL was not responsible for that norm except that he cannot claim re-incarnation and escape responsibility at the same time.

            If you want a modern view, the DL has specifically stated that China should not only return Tibet to him but also give him extra territories that are not part of Tibet and all non-Tibetans (and that includes Mongols, Hui, as well as Han) should leave. In short, he's telling the Chinese not only to ethnic cleansed all non-Tibetans out of Tibet but also out of Chinese territories as well.

            Originally posted by doppelganger View Post
            Even callow 19 year old Indians recognize the 5 cent Chinese army spreading across the world with the Party mandated agenda.
            Every army has a government mandated agenda.

            Originally posted by doppelganger View Post
            Incidentally Colonel sir, I have met the Dalain Lama once face to face at a prayer gathering in Dharmshala.

            I still say sir, you and I are but single men, with a right to our opinions.

            But so are the tens of thousands of devotees I saw that day with steadfast devotion in their eyes.
            Fine. They can follow him for all I care. What I don't like is for him to ask for my army.

            Originally posted by doppelganger View Post
            So you may think he is snake oil salesman. I think he is a charismatic leader. Thousands rever him as a living God.

            Its called faith sir. Logic has no place in it. Nor real politic.
            Well, then, he has a standing army.

            Originally posted by doppelganger View Post
            Now about fighting for their land, or not, or the means adopted, BM has already pointed out, as I did, that they have fought and bled.

            Now if they fight they will be finished. There has to be another way.
            Bullshit. I just named 3 armies that won their wars

            Originally posted by doppelganger View Post
            If the Western armies have rallied together and gone around the globe fighting for the oppressed, and trying to change oppressive regimes nad bring in a semblence of order and self rule,
            No, we didn't.

            Originally posted by doppelganger View Post
            why have they left out Tibet?
            Not our problem.

            Originally posted by doppelganger View Post
            You ask me to wake you up when the Indian Army marches North. If we do, it will be for fighting for what is ours and self preservation.
            You will be fighting for your national interests, whatever they may be. Bangladesh did not threaten Indian survival.

            Originally posted by doppelganger View Post
            Meanwhile, when is the West going to recognize the plight of the Tibetans?
            Has it not occur to you that we're not and we don't care?

            Originally posted by doppelganger View Post
            So what if its China you are up against? You've gone up against Russia, surely this should be an order of magnitude easier .....
            Why? Because you or the DL wants us to? Not good enough.

            Comment


            • The tin-pot icebreaker
              SUJAN DUTTA

              New Delhi, May 7: One among the many whispers that cloak any deal with China is that the face-off at Raki Nala was resolved “for the price of a tin shed”.

              That tin shed was set up on a hill feature at a place called Chumar in the far south-east tip of Ladakh. Sources would not confirm what the tin shed was meant for but said it was “completed” on April 18, three days after the Chinese incursion was detected.

              The incursion itself was detected after an Indian patrol “found signs of a Chinese helicopter having landed” on April 15. The Indian Army and the Indo-Tibetan Border Police immediately set up their own camp in eyeball-to-eyeball position from the Chinese at Raki Nala.

              Chumar is a hundred and more kilometres away from Raki Nala but the events had a bearing on the tin shed on a hilltop in the south-eastern tip of Ladakh opposite the Tibet boundary.

              The sources would not detail what the tin shed was meant for — was it a bunker? Was it a fortification? A tin shed can hardly be any of those. So did Indian forces go into disputed territory in a flanking move and use it as a bargaining chip or did India give up a position and kowtow to the Chinese?

              Enquiries by The Telegraph suggest neither.

              Given its location, Chumar does not overlook either the Karakoram Highway between China and Pakistan nor does it overlook China’s Western Highway in Tibet (that connects to Xinjiang). Chumar is at least 40km as the crow flies from the Western Highway that is also flanked by a Karakoram ridgeline and is obscured from view.

              But the Chumar feature is 7 to 8km from an Indian Army camp at the very limit of the line till where Indian forces patrol. Climbing up the feature and manning it 24 X 7 is a demanding task.

              Two years ago, the Indian Army’s Northern Command procured more than half-a-dozen high-powered high-resolution automatic cameras. One or more of the cameras were installed on a mast in the hill feature. The cameras clicked photographs automatically and relayed the pictures back to the Indian Army camp.

              The Chumar feature overlooks a Chinese army camp and a road leading to it. The camera(s) were capable of taking photographs periodically. A comparison of a series of photographs and their interpretation would enable Indian Army analysts to read the changes and the traffic in and out of the Chinese PLA camp.

              Work on setting up the system in Chumar began two months ago. So, technically, sources in Delhi are correct when they said whatever was/is in Chumar was only “completed” on April 18.

              Chumar is by no means the only such feature. The process began about two years ago when the Indian Army’s Northern Command headquartered in Udhampur and the Eastern Command headquartered in Calcutta established “China Study Cells”. The cells are teams of officers, each headed by a brigadier, who are dedicated to watch China.

              The setting up of surveillance systems on the frontier aids in the work of the cells. But conditions on the China front are harsh.

              Buffeted by high winds, the cameras and/or the mast often bent or broke. The army then built a shelter — or a tin shed — for the system in Chumar.

              Is that the “tin shed” that was removed? Are the cameras still there? Watch this space.

              The tin-pot icebreaker

              Comment


              • OOE, I did a quick google search and found that most of your claims regarding human skins and the such come from unverified sources and China is well known for its propaganda machinery. So I am sorry but I must take your words with grains of salt.

                All of the stuff you heard about Tibet could be another form of demagoguery, a tactic used by China to discredit its enemies. This is not unique to China. Soviets used it to justify their programs, the Nazis, the fascists, even the Western government against the native Americans and aborigines, Mongols against their enemies, and Romans against the Carthaginians, Greeks against the Persians, etc.

                Comment


                • Fine. Leave the human skin out. That still leaves serfdom, starvation of the masses while the rich lives in luxury, aka the Monks, and the invitation of the Mongols and the Qings to enforce their rule.

                  Comment


                  • I trust wiki is neutral enough source for you

                    Human rights in Tibet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                    Especially the crime and punishement part where even witnesses were tortured. It took the 13th Lama to ban mutilation and not until 1913. Some Buddhist living god. Mongol desport sounds more like it.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                      I trust wiki is neutral enough source for you

                      Human rights in Tibet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                      Especially the crime and punishement part where even witnesses were tortured. It took the 13th Lama to ban mutilation and not until 1913. Some Buddhist living god. Mongol desport sounds more like it.
                      "You know wikipedia has a well known liberal bias, right? it's a bunch of lefty editors doing work for the communists. Tibet was close to heaven under Lama rule, commies are bad, they tell lies. Trust us".

                      -- Internet logic

                      Comment


                      • Penn & Teller Bullshit - Holier than Thou Part 3 - YouTube

                        Penn & Teller are apparently bought by the Commies as well.

                        Comment


                        • DG & BM,

                          One simple question - Forget 2013. Do you really believe the IA in 1962 or still better, anytime since its birth, besmirched the Motherland, or fared "impotent".
                          Now, I don't want the politicos to be dragged in. Simple question warrants even simpler answer.

                          Aside: Sir, I concur, India never lost Tibet.

                          That being said, Tibet was never lost to India.
                          sigpicAnd on the sixth day, God created the Field Artillery...

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                            I trust wiki is neutral enough source for you

                            Human rights in Tibet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                            Especially the crime and punishement part where even witnesses were tortured. It took the 13th Lama to ban mutilation and not until 1913. Some Buddhist living god. Mongol desport sounds more like it.
                            And what China did was even worse than Tibetans and done in the same period of the cited practices. Slavery? not unique to Tibet.

                            You are taking words of Dalai Lama's out of context and twisting it to support your prejudices against him and his religion and blaming him for every ill or evil done. Not a good way to start your arguments. That is not what the concept of reincarnation is about. You need to study the concept of reincarnation in Hinduism and Buddhism.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Deltacamelately View Post
                              DG & BM,

                              One simple question - Forget 2013. Do you really believe the IA in 1962 or still better, anytime since its birth, besmirched the Motherland, or fared "impotent".
                              Now, I don't want the politicos to be dragged in. Simple question warrants even simpler answer.

                              Aside: Sir, I concur, India never lost Tibet.

                              That being said, Tibet was never lost to India.
                              You will realize that once China starts controlling the rivers in Tibet and watch the rivers in India go dry. As for the IA, I never believed that the IA bismirched the Motherland. What I believed and still believe is that IA, out of its strong desire to be an apolitical secular institution, has to subject itself to the crappy civilian leaders' whims and follies and stupidness and shortsightness and greed for the nation's sake and cohesiveness, not out of choice but necessity. As a result, IA has to fight from a compromised situation, unable to maximize its strengths or minimize its weaknesses. So yes I fear a repeat of 1962 when GoI has placed a compromised general to lead the IA. I currently view the current IA chief with great suspicion, wondering what kind of deals did he make to get that position with MMS and his cronies.

                              Did you hear what GoI did to retired Gen. V. Kumar? After he lawfully exercised his right to protest, the GoI took away his protection as a petty cheap shot across the bow.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by doppelganger View Post
                                The tin-pot icebreaker
                                SUJAN DUTTA

                                New Delhi, May 7: One among the many whispers that cloak any deal with China is that the face-off at Raki Nala was resolved “for the price of a tin shed”.

                                That tin shed was set up on a hill feature at a place called Chumar in the far south-east tip of Ladakh. Sources would not confirm what the tin shed was meant for but said it was “completed” on April 18, three days after the Chinese incursion was detected.

                                The incursion itself was detected after an Indian patrol “found signs of a Chinese helicopter having landed” on April 15. The Indian Army and the Indo-Tibetan Border Police immediately set up their own camp in eyeball-to-eyeball position from the Chinese at Raki Nala.

                                Chumar is a hundred and more kilometres away from Raki Nala but the events had a bearing on the tin shed on a hilltop in the south-eastern tip of Ladakh opposite the Tibet boundary.

                                The sources would not detail what the tin shed was meant for — was it a bunker? Was it a fortification? A tin shed can hardly be any of those. So did Indian forces go into disputed territory in a flanking move and use it as a bargaining chip or did India give up a position and kowtow to the Chinese?

                                Enquiries by The Telegraph suggest neither.

                                Given its location, Chumar does not overlook either the Karakoram Highway between China and Pakistan nor does it overlook China’s Western Highway in Tibet (that connects to Xinjiang). Chumar is at least 40km as the crow flies from the Western Highway that is also flanked by a Karakoram ridgeline and is obscured from view.

                                But the Chumar feature is 7 to 8km from an Indian Army camp at the very limit of the line till where Indian forces patrol. Climbing up the feature and manning it 24 X 7 is a demanding task.

                                Two years ago, the Indian Army’s Northern Command procured more than half-a-dozen high-powered high-resolution automatic cameras. One or more of the cameras were installed on a mast in the hill feature. The cameras clicked photographs automatically and relayed the pictures back to the Indian Army camp.

                                The Chumar feature overlooks a Chinese army camp and a road leading to it. The camera(s) were capable of taking photographs periodically. A comparison of a series of photographs and their interpretation would enable Indian Army analysts to read the changes and the traffic in and out of the Chinese PLA camp.

                                Work on setting up the system in Chumar began two months ago. So, technically, sources in Delhi are correct when they said whatever was/is in Chumar was only “completed” on April 18.

                                Chumar is by no means the only such feature. The process began about two years ago when the Indian Army’s Northern Command headquartered in Udhampur and the Eastern Command headquartered in Calcutta established “China Study Cells”. The cells are teams of officers, each headed by a brigadier, who are dedicated to watch China.

                                The setting up of surveillance systems on the frontier aids in the work of the cells. But conditions on the China front are harsh.

                                Buffeted by high winds, the cameras and/or the mast often bent or broke. The army then built a shelter — or a tin shed — for the system in Chumar.

                                Is that the “tin shed” that was removed? Are the cameras still there? Watch this space.

                                The tin-pot icebreaker
                                There are conflicting reports coming in from the army and the foreign minister on whether any bunker was dismantled or not. The foreign minister's statements are quite vague, so I guess the army's statement that a bunker indeed was dismantled is true?

                                Comment

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