Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

China-Tibet Threads

Collapse
This is a sticky topic.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Taiping rebellion....
    To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by troung View Post
      Taiping rebellion....
      Is this what you are talking about?

      The Taiping Rebellion (Taiping means great peace), the largest peasant rebellion in Qing history (1644-1911), was led by a foreign religion--Christianity. From Emperor Chien Lung's remarks about the world in the 1790s, to Hong Xiuquan, China had changed tremendously. Another peasant rebellion in the 19th century, called the Boxer Rebellion, directed mainly at foreigners in China, was built around heterodox beliefs such as supernatural forces that would render one invulnerable to guns and knives. The Taipings and Boxers helped foster broad trends away from mainstream Confucian learning. This was a great affront to those who argued that Confucian learning should be upheld as the essence (ti) of Chinese culture

      Comment


      • #18
        Can I post this here?

        In all this talk about Tibet, let's not forget Nepal. :))



        Notice that he says Nepal every time.
        "Of all the manifestations of power, restraint impresses men the most." - Thucydides

        Comment


        • #19
          In Taiping rebellion, people not fought for their religion freedom. In ancient China, private gathering was very sensitive to the rulers. So in order to mobilize poeple, the leaders always use the name of religion. Like the form of Ming dynasty, the leaders also use the name of religion. But when they succeed, they abandoned the religion and surrendered to the Confucianists ideology again.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Shek View Post
            BI'm afraid that merging nearly a dozen threads into one will result in a single 100 page thread that crashes vBulletin
            Never mind vBulletin, it would crash the universe!

            Israel vs Palestine,
            China vs US
            Soviet Union vs US
            UK vs France
            Right vs Left
            Cats vs Dogs
            Toilet seat up vs down

            ...The mega-thread for these debates would cause a singularity of stubbornness, pig-headedness and horses beaten to such a bloody pulp that PETA would have a heart-attack.
            HD Ready?

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by dave lukins View Post
              Is this what you are talking about?
              The Taiping rebellion was not lead by Christianity, it was lead by a man called Hong Xiuquan, who believed himself the brother of Jesus Christ.
              Officially 20 - 30 million dead, IIRC when OoE and I were discussing it somewhere or other the number 50 - 60 million was raised as a more likely scenario
              In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

              Leibniz

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
                Officially 20 - 30 million dead, IIRC when OoE and I were discussing it somewhere or other the number 50 - 60 million was raised as a more likely scenario
                When you think that that is almost twice the number of the Britain its unthinkable. Horrendous

                Comment


                • #23
                  If you break that down to per day, that's 2,000-12,000 people died per day.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by dave lukins View Post
                    When you think that that is almost twice the number of the Britain its unthinkable. Horrendous
                    China almost never seems to do things by halves.
                    In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                    Leibniz

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by xunil View Post
                      Westerners may not understand Han Chinese's attitude towards religion. Before Han dynasty, there is no religion in China. Most of Chinese worship their ancient, imaginative creatures like Loong(龙) or originators of their professions. Then Confucianist create an ideology: The highest level of deity is "Heaven". Every deities people worship were under guideness of "Heaven". So no matter what kinds of deities poeple worship, they should always obey the guideness of "Heaven". And the King is the "Son of Heaven", he is the agent of "Heaven" on the earth. The King is only one on the earth can communicate with the "Heaven", report and receive message from the "Heaven". So poeple on the earth should abey the King, otherwise they disobey the "Heaven", and will be punished by the "Heaven".
                      This don't change after Buddhism, Christianity and Islam were brought in. So for two thousand of years, religions were always in the second place. Han Chinese are not that serious about religions like westerners. That's why Chinese never fought war like the Crusades. No matter it's right or not, Most of Han Chinese accept it.
                      The theory of Confucianist caused another consequence. Since there was only one person -- the King, can communicate with the "Heaven", thus there was only one rightful "Son of Heaven" on the earth. So the King would not tolerate another "Son of Heaven". Because of this, China always fought war of unification.
                      Talking about ancient Chinese's conception of the world. Chinese called the world "under Heaven". And China was in the center of "under Heaven". "under Heaven" should be ruled by the only "Son of Heaven". The "Middle Kingdom" was the actually territory the King ruled, because the other area of "under Heaven" was land of barbarian and didn't have the lucky to be governed by the "Son of Heaven".

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        I always smile at the maps emanating from China through that period.
                        While the Europeans did a little bit the same sort of thing with the mercator projection, the Chinese maps were literally 90% China and 10% 'barbarian lands' around the outside, despite Zheng He.
                        In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                        Leibniz

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
                          I always smile at the maps emanating from China through that period.
                          While the Europeans did a little bit the same sort of thing with the mercator projection, the Chinese maps were literally 90% China and 10% 'barbarian lands' around the outside, despite Zheng He.
                          Ancient China was surrounded by Qinghai-Tibet plateau, deserts, cold Siberia, and Sea. So it was really hard for ancient Chinese to go out of the region, and also hard for outsiders to come into this region. The only way to penetrate those barriers was the "Silk Road" which was constantly disturbed by war. So it's not surprise China knew the world so late.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by xunil View Post
                            Ancient China was surrounded by Qinghai-Tibet plateau, deserts, cold Siberia, and Sea. So it was really hard for ancient Chinese to go out of the region, and also hard for outsiders to come into this region. The only way to penetrate those barriers was the "Silk Road" which was constantly disturbed by war. So it's not surprise China knew the world so late.
                            The rest of the world was paying attention to China long before China paid attention to them. The mindset simply wasn't there, in just the way the maps showed the rest of the world as minor bits of island around the Middle Kingdom.
                            Here's a letter sent by Qian Long to George III in 1793

                            You, O King, live beyond the confines of many seas, nevertheless, impelled by your humble desire to partake of the benefits of our civilisation, you have dispatched a mission respectfully bearing your memorial. Your Envoy has crossed the seas and paid his respects at my Court on the anniversary of my birthday. To show your devotion, you have also sent offerings of your country's produce.

                            I have perused your memorial: the earnest terms in which it is couched reveal a respectful humility on your part, which is highly praiseworthy. In consideration of the fact that your Ambassador and his deputy have come a long way with your memorial and tribute, I have shown them high favour and have allowed them to be introduced into my presence. To manifest my indulgence, I have entertained them at a banquet and made them numerous gifts. I have also caused presents to be forwarded to the Naval Commander and six hundred of his officers and men, although they did not come to Peking, so that they too may share in my all*embracing kindness.

                            As to your entreaty to send one of your nationals to be accredited to my Celestial Court and to be in control of your country's trade with China, this request is contrary to all usage of my dynasty and cannot possibly be entertained. It is true that Europeans, in the service of the dynasty, have been permitted to live at Peking, but they are compelled to adopt Chinese dress, they are strictly confined to their own precincts and are never permitted to return home. You are presumably familiar with our dynastic regulations. Your proposed Envoy to my Court could not be placed in a position similar to that of European officials in Peking who are forbidden to leave China, nor could he, on the other hand, be allowed liberty of movement and the privilege of corresponding with his own country; so that you would gain nothing by his residence in our midst.

                            Moreover, our Celestial dynasty possesses vast territories, and tribute missions from the dependencies are provided for by the Department for Tributary States, which ministers to their wants and exercises strict control over their movements. It would be quite impossible to leave them to their own devices. Supposing that your Envoy should come to our Court, his language and national dress differ from that of our people, and there would be no place in which to bestow him. It may be suggested that he might imitate the Europeans permanently resident in Peking and adopt the dress and customs of China, but, it has never been our dynasty's wish to force people to do things unseemly and inconvenient. Besides, supposing I sent an Ambassador to reside in your country, how could you possibly make for him the requisite arrangements? Europe consists of many other nations besides your own: if each and all demanded to be represented at our Court, how could we possibly consent? The thing is utterly impracticable. How can our dynasty alter its whole procedure and system of etiquette, established for more than a century, in order to meet your individual views? If it be said that your object is to exercise control over your country's trade, your nationals have had full liberty to trade at Canton for many a year, and have received the greatest consideration at our hands. Missions have been sent by Portugal and Italy, preferring similar requests. The Throne appreciated their sincerity and loaded them with favours, besides authorising measures to facilitate their trade with China. You are no doubt aware that, when my Canton merchant, Wu Chao*ping, was in debt to the foreign ships, I made the Viceroy advance the monies due, out of the provincial treasury, and ordered him to punish the culprit severely. Why then should foreign nations advance this utterly unreasonable request to be represented at my Court? Peking is nearly two thousand miles from Canton, and at such a distance what possible control could any British representative exercise?

                            If you assert that your reverence for Our Celestial dynasty fills you with a desire to acquire our civilisation, our ceremonies and code of laws differ so completely from your own that, even if your Envoy were able to acquire the rudiments of our civilisation, you could not possibly transplant our manners and customs to your alien soil. Therefore, however adept the Envoy might become, nothing would be gained thereby.

                            Swaying the wide world, I have but one aim in view, namely, to maintain a perfect governance and to fulfil the duties of the State: strange and costly objects do not interest me. If I have commanded that the tribute offerings sent by you, O King, are to be accepted, this was solely in consideration for the spirit which prompted you to dispatch them from afar. Our dynasty's majestic virtue has penetrated unto every country under Heaven, and Kings of all nations have offered their costly tribute by land and sea. As your Ambassador can see for himself, we possess all things. I set no value on objects strange or ingenious, and have no use for your country's manufactures. This then is my answer to your request to appoint a representative at my Court, a request contrary to our dynastic usage, which would only result in inconvenience to yourself. I have expounded my wishes in detail and have commanded your tribute Envoys to leave in peace on their homeward journey. It behoves you, O King, to respect my sentiments and to display even greater devotion and loyalty in future, so that, by perpetual submission to our Throne, you may secure peace and prosperity for your country hereafter. Besides making gifts (of which I enclose an inventory) to each member of your Mission, I confer upon you, O King, valuable presents in excess of the number usually bestowed on such occasions, including silks and curios-a list of which is likewise enclosed. Do you reverently receive them and take note of my tender goodwill towards you! A special mandate.

                            In the same letter, a further mandate to King George III dealt in detail with the British ambassador's proposals and the Emperor's reasons for declining them.

                            You, O King, from afar have yearned after the blessings of our civilisation, and in your eagerness to come into touch with our converting influence have sent an Embassy across the sea bearing a memorial. I have already taken note of your respectful spirit of submission, have treated your mission with extreme favour and loaded it with gifts, besides issuing a mandate to you, O King, and honouring you with the bestowal of valuable presents. Thus has my indulgence been manifested.

                            Yesterday your Ambassador petitioned my Ministers to memorialise me regarding your trade with China, but his proposal is not consistent with our dynastic usage and cannot be entertained. Hitherto, all European nations, including your own country's barbarian merchants, have carried on their trade with our Celestial Empire at Canton. Such has been the procedure for many years, although our Celestial Empire possesses all things in prolific abundance and lacks no product within its own borders. There was therefore no need to import the manufactures of outside barbarians in exchange for our own produce. But as the tea, silk and porcelain which the Celestial Empire produces, are absolute necessities to European nations and to yourselves, we have permitted, as a signal mark of favour, that foreign hongs [merchant firms] should be established at Canton, so that your wants might be supplied and your country thus participate in our beneficence. But your Ambassador has now put forward new requests which completely fail to recognise the Throne's principle to "treat strangers from afar with indulgence," and to exercise a pacifying control over barbarian tribes, the world over. Moreover, our dynasty, swaying the myriad races of the globe, extends the same benevolence towards all. Your England is not the only nation trading at Canton. If other nations, following your bad example, wrongfully importune my ear with further impossible requests, how will it be possible for me to treat them with easy indulgence? Nevertheless, I do not forget the lonely remoteness of your island, cut off from the world by intervening wastes of sea, nor do I overlook your excusable ignorance of the usages of our Celestial Empire. I have consequently commanded my Ministers to enlighten your Ambassador on the subject, and have ordered the departure of the mission. But I have doubts that, after your Envoy's return he may fail to acquaint you with my view in detail or that he may be lacking in lucidity, so that I shall now proceed . . . to issue my mandate on each question separately. In this way you will, I trust, comprehend my meaning....

                            (3) Your request for a small island near Chusan, where your merchants may reside and goods be warehoused, arises from your desire to develop trade. As there are neither foreign hongs nor interpreters in or near Chusan, where none of your ships have ever called, such an island would be utterly useless for your purposes. Every inch of the territory of our Empire is marked on the map and the strictest vigilance is exercised over it all: even tiny islets and far*lying sand*banks are clearly defined as part of the provinces to which they belong. Consider, moreover, that England is not the only barbarian land which wishes to establish . . . trade with our Empire: supposing that other nations were all to imitate your evil example and beseech me to present them each and all with a site for trading purposes, how could I possibly comply? This also is a flagrant infringement of the usage of my Empire and cannot possibly be entertained.

                            (4) The next request, for a small site in the vicinity of Canton city, where your barbarian merchants may lodge or, alternatively, that there be no longer any restrictions over their movements at Aomen, has arisen from the following causes. Hitherto, the barbarian merchants of Europe have had a definite locality assigned to them at Aomen for residence and trade, and have been forbidden to encroach an inch beyond the limits assigned to that locality.... If these restrictions were withdrawn, friction would inevitably occur between the Chinese and your barbarian subjects, and the results would militate against the benevolent regard that I feel towards you. From every point of view, therefore, it is best that the regulations now in force should continue unchanged....

                            (7) Regarding your nation's worship of the Lord of Heaven, it is the same religion as that of other European nations. Ever since the beginning of history, sage Emperors and wise rulers have bestowed on China a moral system and inculcated a code, which from time immemorial has been religiously observed by the myriads of my subjects. There has been no hankering after heterodox doctrines. Even the European (missionary) officials in my capital are forbidden to hold intercourse with Chinese subjects; they are restricted within the limits of their appointed residences, and may not go about propagating their religion. The distinction between Chinese and barbarian is most strict, and your Ambassador's request that barbarians shall be given full liberty to disseminate their religion is utterly unreasonable.

                            It may be, O King, that the above proposals have been wantonly made by your Ambassador on his own responsibility, or peradventure you yourself are ignorant of our dynastic regulations and had no intention of transgressing them when you expressed these wild ideas and hopes.... If, after the receipt of this explicit decree, you lightly give ear to the representations of your subordinates and allow your barbarian merchants to proceed to Chêkiang and Tientsin, with the object of landing and trading there, the ordinances of my Celestial Empire are strict in the extreme, and the local officials, both civil and military, are bound reverently to obey the law of the land. Should your vessels touch the shore, your merchants will assuredly never be permitted to land or to reside there, but will be subject to instant expulsion. In that event your barbarian merchants will have had a long journey for nothing.

                            From E. Backhouse and J. O. P. Bland, Annals and Memoirs of the Court of Peking (Boston: Houghton Mifflin, 1914), pp. 322*331


                            By the 1840s the British were able to sail into China's rivers and destroy its fleets.
                            In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                            Leibniz

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              People still keep making these types of threads.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Those new threads have been closed.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X