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  • yeung3939

    Fine.

    Could you elaborate as to why foreign tourists and journalists were bundled out of Tibet if what China was doing was morally right and the majority of Tibetans are for China.

    Tibetans have not been forced to adopt Chinese names because in this modern world, such a repressive action would have raised an international outcry. China and the Chinese people are very sensitive abut their image.

    There maybe a TV channel in Tibetan, but education is undertaken in Manadarin.

    Freedom from Hunger is not the sole source of joy and well being. Mental and spiritual solace plays a greater role. That is suppressed in Tibet.

    If one is to believe PRC, what prevents one from also believing the Free Tibet news and then using their own intelligence to realise what is up and put two and two together.

    Like, for instance, the bundling out of foreign tourists and journalists during the Tibet riots, does suggest that things were drastically wrong and that PRC did not want it to be exposed!
    Last edited by Ray; 22 Jul 08,, 03:43.


    "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

    I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

    HAKUNA MATATA

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Ray View Post
      yeung3939

      Fine.

      Could you elaborate as to why foreign tourists and journalists were bundled out of Tibet if what China was doing was morally right and the majority of Tibetans are for China.

      Tibetans have not been forced to adopt Chinese names because in this modern world, such a repressive action would have raised an international outcry. China and the Chinese people are very sensitive abut their image.

      There maybe a TV channel in Tibetan, but education is undertaken in Manadarin.

      Freedom from Hunger is not the sole source of joy and well being. Mental and spiritual solace plays a greater role. That is suppressed in Tibet.

      If one is to believe PRC, what prevents one from also believing the Free Tibet news and then using their own intelligence to realise what is up and put two and two together.

      Like, for instance, the bundling out of foreign tourists and journalists during the Tibet riots, does suggest that things were drastically wrong and that PRC did not want it to be exposed!
      I won't pretend I can explain things, but I would like to offer an alternative explanation. CCP usually does more than necessary, and the expelling of foreign tourists and reporters can be explained as a preventive measure against inaccurate reporting that may lead to misconception. If tourists and reporters were allowed to stay in Tibet, first some of them may get hurt. Reporters may take emotional photos of the movement, and then no one knows how those medias will edit this photo to convey the message that this movement is a peaceful protest for independence. Reporters aren't doing research, and they can only see what they can see. It is not a referendum, and allows much room for manipulation and partial reporting.

      Tibetans are allowed to practise their religion actually (not during the Cultural revolution though). The problem is that the Tibetan Buddhism is inseparable from politics. The Lama is the highest social class that is to rule the people. That was why in the old Tibet many people became Lama and the birth rate dropped.

      I mentioned the surname problem only in order to differentiate Tibet from Japanese colonies.

      As for the language problem, yes I agree CCP should put more emphasis on education in Tibetan langauge. But I can also see how sticking to Tibetan will lead to trans-generation poverty. ALso, I would like to point out education is half tibetan half Mandarin. Not all Mandarin. However, I must stress different schools adopt different policies. At least, the CCP is not forcing the local people to speak Mandarin. Tibet has been geographically and economically if not politially attached to China for centuries. Even if CCP doesn't force them, it would be an advantage to learn Mandarin and there would be great incentives for young children to learn Mandarin. Having said that, I have to stress I oppose any attempt to remove Tibetan from the education.

      As for the material-spiritual debate, none of us can speak for the Tibetans. The bottom line is that the living standard of Tibetans is likely to decrease if they become independent, and independence will at best restore their rights to practise Lama theocracy (if not theocracy, religious domination). I can't see how the CCP is stopping Tibetans from practising their version of Buddhism. CCP just prohibited the intrusion of religion into the public sphere. But I would be grateful for further information.

      CCP just tries to conceal everything to avoid misunderstanding. CCP always fears criticism (even unfounded). I have seen too much of this. The CCP did the same thing in the first days after the May EarthQuake. Nothing special. Many people here in Hong Kong including me actually support further opening of information to avoid foreign manipulation.
      Last edited by yeung3939; 22 Jul 08,, 04:22.

      Comment


      • These are the pro-CCP evidence available at wikipedia. Sorry I have no time to verify these information, but I have confidence in their accuracy.

        Certainly not all evidence suggests Tibetans have long resisted Chinese rule.

        西藏不断扩军,在康区部署了绝大部分的军队(数万人),这也导致西藏在北部地区,无法有力维持边境。191 7年,在康区的冲突中,西藏噶厦取得了胜利,占领了昌都、德格等地。随着继续扩军,噶厦无力维持飞涨的军费 开支,转而向后藏扎什伦布寺第九世班禅喇嘛要求巨额税收,班禅喇嘛抗议无果后,于1923年12月,出走内地,随后受到中华民国政府的接待。1933年第十三世达赖去世后,九世班禅由蒋介石政府派遣的5000人护卫队护送回藏,主持寻找达赖喇嘛的 转世灵童,但在回藏的途中在青海不幸去世。由于新兴的少壮军官热衷于西化,与西藏传统势力的冲突不断加剧, 最后导致这些军官先后被免职,藏军此后走向衰落。1933年12月,第十三世达赖喇嘛圆寂,西藏随后更加陷入了内部的利益争斗,而止步不前。但由于中国内地经历着抗日战争、国共内战,西藏的这种状况,一直维持到1950年代初。

        1911年,中国爆发辛亥革命,建立了合汉、满、蒙、回、藏等民族为一体的共和国—中华民国。中央政府一如 元、明、清三朝,实行对西藏地方的治理。1912年中央政府设蒙藏事务局(1914年改称蒙藏院),主管西藏地方事务,并任命了中央驻藏办事长官。南京国民政府于1927年成立,1929年设立蒙藏委员会,主管藏族、蒙古族等少数民族地区行政事宜。1940年,国民政府在拉萨设立蒙藏委员会驻藏办事处,作为中央政府在西藏的常设机构。西藏地方政府多次选派官员参加国民代表大会。中华民国期间,外患不已,内乱频仍,中央政府孱弱,而达赖喇嘛 , 班禅额尔德尼继续接受中央政府册封,获得在西藏地方的政治、宗教上的合法地位。现在的十四世达赖喇嘛拉木登 珠的任职,就是经由国民政府主席颁令批准的。

        Comment


        • [QUOTE]
          Originally posted by yeung3939 View Post
          I won't pretend I can explain things, but I would like to offer an alternative explanation. CCP usually does more than necessary, and the expelling of foreign tourists and reporters can be explained as a preventive measure against inaccurate reporting that may lead to misconception. If tourists and reporters were allowed to stay in Tibet, first some of them may get hurt. Reporters may take emotional photos of the movement, and then no one knows how those medias will edit this photo to convey the message that this movement is a peaceful protest for independence. Reporters aren't doing research, and they can only see what they can see. It is not a referendum, and allows much room for manipulation and partial reporting.
          Do you realise that it is more dangerous for the CCP and China's image wherein measure like bundling foreigners out leads to the idea that China is a police state and afraid of allowing anyone to know the truth?

          Do you also realise that because of such an effort of blanketing news, one starts believe and quoting Free Tibet? And Free Tibet is no friends of the Communists!

          In the bargain China is had!

          If the US had done in Iraq what China has done in Tibet with the journalists and tourists, one would not know the the horror being perpetuated by the terrorists. While the media has not covered the US actions in glory, it has still played a great role in getting the world to realise the horrors that the terrorists can perpetuate in the name of religion!

          It cuts both ways.

          Tibetans are allowed to practise their religion actually (not during the Cultural revolution though). The problem is that the Tibetan Buddhism is inseparable from politics. The Lama is the highest social class that is to rule the people. That was why in the old Tibet many people became Lama and the birth rate dropped.

          I mentioned the surname problem only in order to differentiate Tibet from Japanese colonies.
          The practice is superficially allowed. Their Dalai Lama is condemned repeatedly and the monks are put in jail. Is that being allowed to practice their religion?

          Changing of surnames to Han names is an age old practice for China. The Manchus were forced to do so and so too with the so called barbarians of the
          North, South, East and West.

          As for the language problem, yes I agree CCP should put more emphasis on education in Tibetan langauge. But I can also see how sticking to Tibetan will lead to trans-generation poverty. ALso, I would like to point out education is half tibetan half Mandarin. Not all Mandarin. However, I must stress different schools adopt different policies. At least, the CCP is not forcing the local people to speak Mandarin. Tibet has been geographically and economically if not politially attached to China for centuries. Even if CCP doesn't force them, it would be an advantage to learn Mandarin and there would be great incentives for young children to learn Mandarin. Having said that, I have to stress I oppose any attempt to remove Tibetan from the education.
          How does learning one's own language in any way lead to poverty?

          After a certain level, teaching is in all Mandarin including Maths.

          What's so fabulous about Mandarin that it is an all encompassing magic wand?

          Why do you all talk of incentives? Why are you so crass commercial? I thought Communism was to avoid the individual desire for the good of the community! Why does one have to bribe or bully and threaten people to Han-ise them?

          If Han culture was that fabulous, then people would automatically go for it. The West never forced the western culture on China, but see how you all are aping them! It shows that there is something worthwhile in the western culture to ape!


          As for the material-spiritual debate, none of us can speak for the Tibetans. The bottom line is that the living standard of Tibetans is likely to decrease if they become independent, and independence will at best restore their rights to practise Lama theocracy (if not theocracy, religious domination). I can't see how the CCP is stopping Tibetans from practising their version of Buddhism. CCP just prohibited the intrusion of religion into the public sphere. But I would be grateful for further information.
          The problems with China and its communism is that you only can think in material terms. You have lost touch with the spiritual aspect of life. Have you noticed how the material West is slowly turning to religion? They have been thre and done that and now realise that mental peace is also an important aspect for a healthy existence. Chaps like Chopra are turning millionaires by gassing the Westerners with soft cooing noises!

          What is this public sphere you talk of?

          CCP just tries to conceal everything to avoid misunderstanding. CCP always fears criticism (even unfounded). I have seen too much of this. The CCP did the same thing in the first days after the May EarthQuake. Nothing special. Many people here in Hong Kong including me actually support further opening of information to avoid foreign manipulation.
          Unique way to avoid misunderstanding by brushing reality under the carpet and thinking all is well!

          See the problems in Sichuan now.


          "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

          I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

          HAKUNA MATATA

          Comment


          • [QUOTE=Ray;519596]

            Do you realise that it is more dangerous for the CCP and China's image wherein measure like bundling foreigners out leads to the idea that China is a police state and afraid of allowing anyone to know the truth?

            Do you also realise that because of such an effort of blanketing news, one starts believe and quoting Free Tibet? And Free Tibet is no friends of the Communists!

            In the bargain China is had!

            If the US had done in Iraq what China has done in Tibet with the journalists and tourists, one would not know the the horror being perpetuated by the terrorists. While the media has not covered the US actions in glory, it has still played a great role in getting the world to realise the horrors that the terrorists can perpetuate in the name of religion!

            It cuts both ways.



            The practice is superficially allowed. Their Dalai Lama is condemned repeatedly and the monks are put in jail. Is that being allowed to practice their religion?

            Changing of surnames to Han names is an age old practice for China. The Manchus were forced to do so and so too with the so called barbarians of the
            North, South, East and West.



            How does learning one's own language in any way lead to poverty?

            After a certain level, teaching is in all Mandarin including Maths.

            What's so fabulous about Mandarin that it is an all encompassing magic wand?

            Why do you all talk of incentives? Why are you so crass commercial? I thought Communism was to avoid the individual desire for the good of the community! Why does one have to bribe or bully and threaten people to Han-ise them?

            If Han culture was that fabulous, then people would automatically go for it. The West never forced the western culture on China, but see how you all are aping them! It shows that there is something worthwhile in the western culture to ape!




            The problems with China and its communism is that you only can think in material terms. You have lost touch with the spiritual aspect of life. Have you noticed how the material West is slowly turning to religion? They have been thre and done that and now realise that mental peace is also an important aspect for a healthy existence. Chaps like Chopra are turning millionaires by gassing the Westerners with soft cooing noises!

            What is this public sphere you talk of?



            Unique way to avoid misunderstanding by brushing reality under the carpet and thinking all is well!

            See the problems in Sichuan now.
            For your first paragraph, this is exactly why I, many scholars and activists in HOng Kong and Mainland oppose CCP's stupid action. It is just an inertia you know. In 2003 SARS, CCP also decided to block news. In the May Earthquake, CCP also initially blocked news. If you look into the stupid way in which CCP deals with sudden events, you would be convinced that blocking news doesn't necessarily mean there is something to conceal. I am not trying to explain away the riot. Just that the riot may not represent the majority will. After all, the Lama class was the backbone of the riot. Also, while CCP did block news, how did the Lamas in GanSu, SiChuan coordinate and manage to riot at the same time? I find it quite difficult to believe it was not an organized plot to catch international attention and to capitalize on the Bejing Olympic.

            Do you realize the difference between secular politics and religious freedom? How exactly does the CCP prohitbit religious practices that don't touch politics? Do you think political dominance of one religion means religious freedom? Do you think the pre-communist theocracy protect the religious freedom of the minority Han and Muslims?

            Crazy. Changes of surname have been here for centuries. THis is just a sign of Hanization. Who is prohibited to have names in Manchurian? They just have a translated name of their Manchurian name? I have personally met quite a few minority group guys. I don't see any problem. THeir names are strange, and there is nothing Chinese but the pronounciation in their 'CHinese name'.

            I didn't say Han culture is fabulous.
            I have to stress that I support more emphasis on Tibetan Language but disagree with your one-sided account. There was a new law passed in 2003 something like that. It at least on paper removed the language barrier. As far as I know, now quite a few Tibetans (and other people) are studied in a university in Beijing designed for minority groups. Also, the top unis' (Beijing U, TsingHua U) admission grade lines for minority groups including TIbetans are lower.

            Oh, learning Tibetan but not Mandarin won't hinder the children? Yes, if you want to be a Lama, then you don't need to do business with CHina. You also don't need to attend good universities. I have spent months in Outer Mongolia and Nepal. Chinese goods flooded into these two countries, and people just keep asking me to teach them Chinese.

            Finally, I really wanted to laugh when reading your comment on my 'communist mindset'. I am a communist? Haha. I don't have any desire to argue with you. Anyway, I didn't say TIbetans should look at the material side and ignore the spiritual side. I just said they are likely to prioritize material interests over those so-called spiritual interests. Yet you guys keep making 'should' argument without proving what Tibetans actually think.
            I don't personally find it difficult to believe money can solve many non-material problems. Hong Kong people loved the British rule, although the British tortued, discriminated and authoritatively ruled us. Money can allow one to pursue their own plans. This is a version of freedom.

            Yeah, thanks to the widespread public criticism of CCP's treatment of the Tibet issue. The CCP lifted the news block and allowed essentially free reporting a few days after the earthquake. Check yourself.
            Last edited by yeung3939; 22 Jul 08,, 07:29.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by yeung3939 View Post
              These are the pro-CCP evidence available at wikipedia. Sorry I have no time to verify these information, but I have confidence in their accuracy.

              Certainly not all evidence suggests Tibetans have long resisted Chinese rule.

              西藏不断扩军,在康区部署了绝大部分的军队(数万人),这也导致西藏在北部地区,无法有力维持边境。191 7年,在康区的冲突中,西藏噶厦取得了胜利,占领了昌都、德格等地。随着继续扩军,噶厦无力维持飞涨的军费 开支,转而向后藏扎什伦布寺第九世班禅喇嘛要求巨额税收,班禅喇嘛抗议无果后,于1923年12月,出走内地,随后受到中华民国政府的接待。1933年第十三世达赖去世后,九世班禅由蒋介石政府派遣的5000人护卫队护送回藏,主持寻找达赖喇嘛的 转世灵童,但在回藏的途中在青海不幸去世。由于新兴的少壮军官热衷于西化,与西藏传统势力的冲突不断加剧, 最后导致这些军官先后被免职,藏军此后走向衰落。1933年12月,第十三世达赖喇嘛圆寂,西藏随后更加陷入了内部的利益争斗,而止步不前。但由于中国内地经历着抗日战争、国共内战,西藏的这种状况,一直维持到1950年代初。

              1911年,中国爆发辛亥革命,建立了合汉、满、蒙、回、藏等民族为一体的共和国—中华民国。中央政府一如 元、明、清三朝,实行对西藏地方的治理。1912年中央政府设蒙藏事务局(1914年改称蒙藏院),主管西藏地方事务,并任命了中央驻藏办事长官。南京国民政府于1927年成立,1929年设立蒙藏委员会,主管藏族、蒙古族等少数民族地区行政事宜。1940年,国民政府在拉萨设立蒙藏委员会驻藏办事处,作为中央政府在西藏的常设机构。西藏地方政府多次选派官员参加国民代表大会。中华民国期间,外患不已,内乱频仍,中央政府孱弱,而达赖喇嘛 , 班禅额尔德尼继续接受中央政府册封,获得在西藏地方的政治、宗教上的合法地位。现在的十四世达赖喇嘛拉木登 珠的任职,就是经由国民政府主席颁令批准的。
              It is all ???????????


              "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

              I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

              HAKUNA MATATA

              Comment


              • [QUOTE][QUOTE=yeung3939;519609]
                Originally posted by Ray View Post

                For your first paragraph, this is exactly why I, many scholars and activists in HOng Kong and Mainland oppose CCP's stupid action. It is just an inertia you know. In 2003 SARS, CCP also decided to block news. In the May Earthquake, CCP also initially blocked news. If you look into the stupid way in which CCP deals with sudden events, you would be convinced that blocking news doesn't necessarily mean there is something to conceal. I am not trying to explain away the riot. Just that the riot may not represent the majority will. After all, the Lama class was the backbone of the riot. Also, while CCP did block news, how did the Lamas in GanSu, SiChuan coordinate and manage to riot at the same time? I find it quite difficult to believe it was not an organized plot to catch international attention and to capitalize on the Bejing Olympic.
                The Lamas could organise themselves since they hate the Communists.

                I would agree that they used the focus on China to embarrass China and show China's repression of what they call barbarians!

                Do you realize the difference between secular politics and religious freedom? How exactly does the CCP prohitbit religious practices that don't touch politics? Do you think political dominance of one religion means religious freedom? Do you think the pre-communist theocracy protect the religious freedom of the minority Han and Muslims?
                Yes I understand secularism and that is why there is a myriad of religions India. One does not have to dominate in religion. One only has to allow without repression!

                Buddhism is one of the most tolerant religions of the world!

                Crazy. Changes of surname have been here for centuries. THis is just a sign of Hanization. Who is prohibited to have names in Manchurian? They just have a translated name of their Manchurian name? I have personally met quite a few minority group guys. I don't see any problem. THeir names are strange, and there is nothing Chinese but the pronounciation in their 'CHinese name'.
                The Manhcu names have been Hanised and also of those who are taken to be ''barbarians''.


                I didn't say Han culture is fabulous.
                You have not said so.

                It is just that the ''barbarians'' were Hanised as if the Han culture was fabulous!

                I have to stress that I support more emphasis on Tibetan Language but disagree with your one-sided account. There was a new law passed in 2003 something like that. It at least on paper removed the language barrier. As far as I know, now quite a few Tibetans (and other people) are studied in a university in Beijing designed for minority groups. Also, the top unis' (Beijing U, TsingHua U) admission grade lines for minority groups including TIbetans are lower.
                There are many good laws in China, but they are on paper only!

                Oh, learning Tibetan but not Mandarin won't hinder the children? Yes, if you want to be a Lama, then you don't need to do business with CHina. You also don't need to attend good universities. I have spent months in Outer Mongolia and Nepal. Chinese goods flooded into these two countries, and people just keep asking me to teach them Chinese.
                Is it a bad thing to be a Lama?

                Why have they do business with China or Timbuctoo if they are happy with the little that they have?

                In India there are sadhus, who live in the Himalayas with hardly any clothes and even food. To me, they are nuts, but they feel OK. So, why should we legislate for others? Each must seek happiness in his own way. My relations have Plasma TV, swanky big cars and all the worldly comforts. I don't. Am I unhappy? No.


                Finally, I really wanted to laugh when reading your comment on my 'communist mindset'. I am a communist? Haha. I don't have any desire to argue with you. Anyway, I didn't say TIbetans should look at the material side and ignore the spiritual side. I just said they are likely to prioritize material interests over those so-called spiritual interests. Yet you guys keep making 'should' argument without proving what Tibetans actually think.
                I don't personally find it difficult to believe money can solve many non-material problems. Hong Kong people loved the British rule, although the British tortued, discriminated and authoritatively ruled us. Money can allow one to pursue their own plans. This is a version of freedom.
                Did I call you a Communist? Actually, who cares what anyone is? Our Parliament's Speaker is a Communist, but he has all the worldly things. He has defied the Communist Party all for his perks and privilege of office. Who is a Communist? None. Not even your Chairman. They have all the perks and fun and pretend to be a worker! Communists are the biggest frauds of the world and civilisation!

                The Chinese are great businessmen and hustlers (in a positive manner of speaking!) They nag and hustle you and get their way. I have never seen such fabulous persuasive businessmen. Therefore, your feeling that money is the be all and end all of life is not surprising.

                But sadly, money is not everything. It only generates greed and wanting more and more. Hardly happiness!

                Yeah, thanks to the widespread public criticism of CCP's treatment of the Tibet issue. The CCP lifted the news block and allowed essentially free reporting a few days after the earthquake. Check yourself
                .

                True, and clamping down elsewhere. Heard of the complaints?


                "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

                I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

                HAKUNA MATATA

                Comment


                • Originally posted by yeung3939 View Post
                  These are the pro-CCP evidence available at wikipedia. Sorry I have no time to verify these information, but I have confidence in their accuracy.

                  Certainly not all evidence suggests Tibetans have long resisted Chinese rule.

                  西藏不断扩军,在康区部署了绝大部分的军队(数万人),这也导致西藏在北部地区,无法有力维持边境。191 7年,在康区的冲突中,西藏噶厦取得了胜利,占领了昌都、德格等地。随着继续扩军,噶厦无力维持飞涨的军费 开支,转而向后藏扎什伦布寺第九世班禅喇嘛要求巨额税收,班禅喇嘛抗议无果后,于1923年12月,出走内地,随后受到中华民国政府的接待。1933年第十三世达赖去世后,九世班禅由蒋介石政府派遣的5000人护卫队护送回藏,主持寻找达赖喇嘛的 转世灵童,但在回藏的途中在青海不幸去世。由于新兴的少壮军官热衷于西化,与西藏传统势力的冲突不断加剧, 最后导致这些军官先后被免职,藏军此后走向衰落。1933年12月,第十三世达赖喇嘛圆寂,西藏随后更加陷入了内部的利益争斗,而止步不前。但由于中国内地经历着抗日战争、国共内战,西藏的这种状况,一直维持到1950年代初。

                  1911年,中国爆发辛亥革命,建立了合汉、满、蒙、回、藏等民族为一体的共和国—中华民国。中央政府一如 元、明、清三朝,实行对西藏地方的治理。1912年中央政府设蒙藏事务局(1914年改称蒙藏院),主管西藏地方事务,并任命了中央驻藏办事长官。南京国民政府于1927年成立,1929年设立蒙藏委员会,主管藏族、蒙古族等少数民族地区行政事宜。1940年,国民政府在拉萨设立蒙藏委员会驻藏办事处,作为中央政府在西藏的常设机构。西藏地方政府多次选派官员参加国民代表大会。中华民国期间,外患不已,内乱频仍,中央政府孱弱,而达赖喇嘛 , 班禅额尔德尼继续接受中央政府册封,获得在西藏地方的政治、宗教上的合法地位。现在的十四世达赖喇嘛拉木登 珠的任职,就是经由国民政府主席颁令批准的。
                  Tibet continued expansion in the deployment of the majority of Kang's army (tens of thousands of people), which also resulted in the northern region of Tibet, can not maintain strong border. 1917, in Hong areas of conflict, Gasha Tibet has achieved victory, the occupation of the Qamdo, Dege, and other places. With the continued military buildup, Gasha unable to maintain the soaring military spending, turned after the first possession of Tashilhunpo huge tax demands Jiushibanchan Lama, the Panchen Lama protested in vain, in December 1923, left the mainland, Followed by the government of the ROC reception. In 1933 the 13th Dalai Lama after the death of Chiang Kai-shek Jiushibanchan by the Government to send the 5,000 security guards escort the team back to Tibet, the Dalai Lama, the search for the reincarnated soul boy, but on the way back to Tibet in Qinghai died. As the emerging them beneath officers eager to Westernize, Tibet's traditional forces and the conflict intensified, the final result of these officers have been removed from office, the Tibetan army to decline since then. December 1933, the 13th Dalai Lama passed away, then Tibet into a more internal struggle between the interests, and not stop before. However, because mainland China is undergoing the Sino-Japanese War, the Chinese civil war, the situation in Tibet, has been maintained to the early 1950s.

                  1911, the outbreak of the Revolution of 1911, the establishment of the Han, Manchu, Mongolian, Hui, Tibetan and other ethnic as one of the Republic - the Republic of China. As the central government Yuan, Ming and Qing three North Korea, the implementation of the governance of Tibet. In 1912 the central government for Mongolian and Tibetan Affairs Service Bureau (in 1914 renamed the Mongolian and Tibetan Affairs hospital), in charge of Tibet affairs, and appointed the acting Chief Executive of the Central Tibet. Nanjing National Government established in 1927, in 1929 the establishment of Mongolian and Tibetan Affairs Commission, in charge of Tibetan, Mongolian and other ethnic minorities in administrative matters. 1940, the national government in Lhasa, Tibet set up the Office of Mongolian and Tibetan Affairs Commission, the Central Government in Tibet as a permanent body. Tibetan local government sent several officials to attend National Assembly. Republic of China, foreign aggression it, civil strife frequently, the central government weak, and the Dalai Lama, the Panchen Erdeni to accept the canonization of the central government, Tibet was in the political, religious legal status. The 14th Dalai Lama pull-the-board representation, that is, by the Chairman of the National Government approved the order.

                  Comment


                  • If the Worlds' press took up this stance, there would be no newspapers or news.(some would say..not a bad idea):)

                    the expelling of foreign tourists and reporters can be explained as a preventive measure against inaccurate reporting that may lead to misconception. If tourists and reporters were allowed to stay in Tibet, first some of them may get hurt. Reporters may take emotional photos of the movement, and then no one knows how those medias will edit this photo to convey the message that this movement is a peaceful protest for independence.
                    Can you name any other Country that threw out the Media?

                    Yeung, the statement above sounds like you have been fed that from some Apparatchik sitting on your shoulder.;) or is it just a tad of aiguozhuyi showing through:)

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by dave lukins View Post
                      If the Worlds' press took up this stance, there would be no newspapers or news.(some would say..not a bad idea):)



                      Can you name any other Country that threw out the Media?

                      Yeung, the statement above sounds like you have been fed that from some Apparatchik sitting on your shoulder.;) or is it just a tad of aiguozhuyi showing through:)

                      What stance did the world's press take up? Many countries criticized as evil by western countries do throw out media.

                      I just wanted to offer an alternative explanation. The CCP does have a policy norm of news block.

                      No Ai Guo Zhu Yi. I am sick of this frequently abused term. I don't have to love the CCP to love China.
                      Last edited by yeung3939; 22 Jul 08,, 10:35.

                      Comment


                      • [QUOTE=Ray;519624][QUOTE]
                        Originally posted by yeung3939 View Post

                        The Lamas could organise themselves since they hate the Communists.

                        I would agree that they used the focus on China to embarrass China and show China's repression of what they call barbarians!



                        Yes I understand secularism and that is why there is a myriad of religions India. One does not have to dominate in religion. One only has to allow without repression!

                        Buddhism is one of the most tolerant religions of the world!



                        The Manhcu names have been Hanised and also of those who are taken to be ''barbarians''.




                        You have not said so.

                        It is just that the ''barbarians'' were Hanised as if the Han culture was fabulous!



                        There are many good laws in China, but they are on paper only!



                        Is it a bad thing to be a Lama?

                        Why have they do business with China or Timbuctoo if they are happy with the little that they have?

                        In India there are sadhus, who live in the Himalayas with hardly any clothes and even food. To me, they are nuts, but they feel OK. So, why should we legislate for others? Each must seek happiness in his own way. My relations have Plasma TV, swanky big cars and all the worldly comforts. I don't. Am I unhappy? No.




                        Did I call you a Communist? Actually, who cares what anyone is? Our Parliament's Speaker is a Communist, but he has all the worldly things. He has defied the Communist Party all for his perks and privilege of office. Who is a Communist? None. Not even your Chairman. They have all the perks and fun and pretend to be a worker! Communists are the biggest frauds of the world and civilisation!

                        The Chinese are great businessmen and hustlers (in a positive manner of speaking!) They nag and hustle you and get their way. I have never seen such fabulous persuasive businessmen. Therefore, your feeling that money is the be all and end all of life is not surprising.

                        But sadly, money is not everything. It only generates greed and wanting more and more. Hardly happiness!

                        .

                        True, and clamping down elsewhere. Heard of the complaints?
                        First, I wonder why you repeatedly used the term 'barbarian'. Who is calling whom barbarian? When? Where?

                        You don't seem to understand the difference between Buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism (Lamaism). Tibetan Buddhism is a religion with political attachments. Politics and religion cannot be separated, because the Lama (particularly the living buddha) is suppoed to rule. Values of tibetan buddhism are to dominate. In this sense, there is normally no religious freedom in Western sense. At least, there was no religious freedom properly defined before the communist takeover.

                        You don't understand the Hanization of names and changes of names into Japanese name (which japanese forced the indigeous population to do). Hanization of name, in your sense, just means finding Chinese words that pronounce like the manchu ones. Changes of name means you have to get a Japanese name. For example, I have a Chinese name. If the British forced us to change our names, then I have to change my name to let's say George Bush. In short, there is not much wrong with Hanization of name. You can keep your own names and pronounce it in your own way.

                        As for your reliance on cultural relativism, yes so why westerners are criticizing China for human rights infringement (which I support, but you don't seem to think so)??? Cultural relativism is not always right, especially if they don't even get enough food to eat. No matter what accounts you rely on, in the pre-communist years many Tibetans suffered from starvation and did not have the oppourtunity to climb up the social laddar. Also, younger generations have better opportunity to get a better living.

                        You can call me whatever you like. I don't believe in the historical materialist determinism of Communism. I said Hong Kong, not China. You don't seem to know anything about Hong Kong.

                        There is nothing in your paragraphs that warrants a categorical attack on the Chinese culture. Money is not all of my life. Choosing money doesn't mean I have to lose my spiritual life. Stop your slogun-like shouting.

                        The complaints of those victims of corruption are heard all over China. No worries. I wish the CCP will address these problems, and hopefully this won't happen again. This shows the advantage of transparency.
                        Last edited by yeung3939; 22 Jul 08,, 10:35.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by yeung3939 View Post
                          You just ignore the counter-evidence. According to the wikipedia (I don't have time to verify it. If you think it is unreasonable, say so), the Tibetan 1912-1950's government did send representative to the constitutional meeting of ROC in 1912. The ROC constitution clearly states that Tibet is to remain part of China. And no country has ever recognized Tibet as an independent country since the 13th century.

                          I am not comparing Cantonese with Tibetans (but don't you know Cantonese didn't become the official language until the 1970's. I was not talking about the communist rule, but the British colonial rule.). I just wanted to say you can't assume the so-called oppressed don't like the oppressor. It is possible that the majority of the oppressed just don't care as long as they can be free from hunger.

                          Tibet is obviously different from those Japanese colonies. Tibet is exempted from taxation. The Central government paid 90% of TIbetan's government expenditure. The QingZhang railway is a huge project paid by the CEntral government, and of course the maintenance costs are also to be paid by the Central government. TIbetans can speak Tibetan langauge. They don't have to change their surnames to Chinese. Their governemtn TV channel (at least one of them) uses Tibetan. Does Taiwan or whatever have anything comparable to this? Don't talk as if Tibet is a colony and the CCP aimed at extracting resources. Tibetan's consent is one thing. The current CCP's policy is another.

                          As for the 1980's delegation, I know that delegation but I am afraid the information you get is from the Tibetan government in exile. I would be very grateful if you could provide more information. I have read a Taiwanese reporter's article. He visited Da Lai Lama's people's home in India, and was shocked by the undemocratic oppressive practices of the persons in charge. he said the education there aimed at indoctrination, and people have to obey the order of religious personnel. If you are relying on 'Da Lai Lama told me', I wouldn't be convinced.
                          what does ROC got to do with all these? if tibetans are happy under ROC but unhappy under PRC, then just too bad. the important thing is, because of the small population and little military strength at anytime in history, they cant resist occupation from a strong central govt. they cannot choose or vote, doesnt mean that they are happy with it.

                          no matter how recent cantanese get its status as an official language in HK, it IS an official language. tibetan is not, period. if u cant see the difference, sorry, i cant help u out. and what, the oppressed must have loved the opressor? did u run a poll?

                          that's why i said, there is 50 yrs of difference in management methods and there is no pressing war time needs compared to japan in early 20th century. chinese govt neednt tax tibet, cos the other areas can provide enuff income. besides there is nothing much to tax, cos unless chinese govt go dig out all the natural resources there and destroy all the environment there, tibet cant offer much with their low production and harsh environment. the chinese might as well do the tibetans a favor. as for taiwan, they can afford to be taxed. please go and read up economic improvements in taiwan under japanese rule. thats much more appealing than what the chinese are doing now in tibet.

                          and wrong assumption again, the information i got was from chinese websites. funny, dont u know that i'm in china now and chinese banned foreign tibetan sites? how come u never learn ur lessons after u made so much wrong assumptions? personally i'm not particularly interested in dalai lama and his teachings cos i'm not into tibetan buddhism. besides, i've met enuff religious ppl to know their common tactics. so again, ur wrong assumption.

                          please stick to the matter itself instead of making wild guesses at other poster's background or mentality or beliefs. thats typical chinese arguing style and it doesnt help in an educated discussion.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by yeung3939 View Post
                            As for the language problem, yes I agree CCP should put more emphasis on education in Tibetan langauge. But I can also see how sticking to Tibetan will lead to trans-generation poverty. ALso, I would like to point out education is half tibetan half Mandarin. Not all Mandarin. However, I must stress different schools adopt different policies. At least, the CCP is not forcing the local people to speak Mandarin. Tibet has been geographically and economically if not politially attached to China for centuries. Even if CCP doesn't force them, it would be an advantage to learn Mandarin and there would be great incentives for young children to learn Mandarin. Having said that, I have to stress I oppose any attempt to remove Tibetan from the education.
                            Can you explain how this policy of your government is different from the language policy of Pakistan governemnt between 1947 to 1971 which led to the creation of Bangladesh?

                            Morever if learning mandarin is an advantage , learning english is even more advantageous.
                            Keyboard is mightier than gun

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by devgupt View Post
                              Morever if learning mandarin is an advantage , learning english is even more advantageous.
                              Not if your market is all of China.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                                Not if your market is all of China.
                                Right but then the Chinese are themselves learning english nowadays. But they are making Tibetans learn Chinese.They are denying the advantage of english to Tibetans.
                                More importantly admission to university is through a common entrance examination but the medium of examination is in Chinese for almost all courses.So obviously the aim is to make tibetans feel that their language will take them nowhere .This isn't the policy to be followed if u consider ur country to be multi-lingual.
                                Keyboard is mightier than gun

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