China-Tibet Threads

[yeung3939]

thats becos someone else had thought that american NMD system was an answer to chinese missile development, which is way off the mark, and had nothing to do with china at all. i simply pointed out that the national missile defense program went way back history, when china was busy with internal conflicts and power struggling, and far from even threatening the furthest american territory. u should've read the postings more carefully. and obviously, with ur claim on free info, u didnt realised that the idea of the NMD project was formulated in the late 50's last century, which is in line with the great leap forward, which is depicted by the deaths of at least 30mil chinese in a couple of yrs.

having access to info is one thing. to be able to sort them out and relate them with one another, is another.

Having an idea is one thing. Being willing to invest a lot of resources on it is another. The fact that the NMD project was formulated in the late 50's last century does not entail the current NMD project has nothing to do with China.
China is likely to be one of the many reasons, though not the sole reasons as some claim.

Crazy. You criticizing me for not being able to sort information out and relate them with one another, just because of my alleged failure to agree with your attempts to link two remote events?

[Triple C]

I am asking you for poll results, because you repeatedly say the majority of Tibetans want independence and hate CCP's rule. You repeatedly criticising me for 'insisting' that economic aids will (I only said may) matter to the majority of Tibetans, but you at the same time insist economic aids won't matter to them. What are your assertions based on?


I don't need to prove sqaut because you are the little Goebbels trying to explain away a major uprising. What other evidence is needed to drive the obvious point through that dense little skull of yours that happy people do not burn shops down and stage uprisings? So all that student protests and the vandalizing of foreign businesses at 1910-30s China doesn't spell major disasstisfaction of the populace?

Poll? What poll? Until your government let any credible NGO in Tibet without minders shadowing their every step you know full well this will not happen.

On what basis do you 'imagine' living standard would improve under Japanese rule? The Japanes rule was extrative colonialism, not like the current Tibet. Also, why compare with Mao's reign.


Ha! Because Mao RULED China after Japan was booted? Because Japan had one hell of a record in infrastructure building in all of its resource rich colonies?

You rely on what has not happened and will not happen. Just wild guessing. Yet you treat these guesses as sound reasoning. I refer to what has already happened (e.g. railway, increase in literacy rate, infrastructure, increase in per capita income), but you just ignore these things.


I think I have made my case quite clear. The CCP throughly ravaged Tibet like they ravaged their own country. You haven't finished making up what you OWED Tibet, and now this. Are they to thank you for liberating them from serfdom and put them into collective farms? Just how many of them died during the GLF & GPCR?

Oh... that's right. You don't even know how many of your own that government killed.

I am personally fighting those internet Brigades on Hong Kong forums, but now you dismiss me as internet brigades.

Your comments on every matter, from the Chinese expansion into Tibet, to your dogmatic insistence that all Tibetans who have protested against Chinese rule are good-for-nothing fedual theocrats (were they not 'liquidated' the last time the PLA was there? That tiny minority of theocrats have a tendency to return to Tibet everytime China needs a strawman to shoot. How peculiar! ), to the great economic progress that China had made for the Tibetans, are line from line copied from Remin Daily and Xinhua Channel. Total political correctness had so far been the theme of your rantings.

As for your professions of democratic sentiment, if you are what passed for pro-democracy intellegensia in China, your nation's propandists had truly earned their keep, let is presuming you aren't one of them.

I have never said the good reasons are the only reasons.

Enlighten us. Stop playing the old tunes. This crowd won't sing to that music. But seriously, if those were your good reasons, bring out the bad ones! I am very much intrigued

Oh, and what's that about Freedom is up for sell? So how many reminbi is life, property, and pursuit of happiness priced in your country? Would you please adjust that for inflation too?

[Aniki]

I never said China is dong charity work. Strategic consideration is everywhere.

As for your second paragraph, sorry for not making my comparisons clear. I am comparing the possible Western aid to post-independent Tibet and China's current aid to Tibet. From the history of Western aid to 3rd world countries (even those of some strategic significance), I can tell there is unlikely to be anything comparable to the current Chinese aid to Tibet. You are right. I can't prove it, because it is future. It is just a reasonable guess.
Mongolia and Nepal are good examples. Central Asian countries aren't much better.

ha, if it's not charity work, then what's there to brag about? it's all give and take, it's not for free. chinese on the whole get more than they paid. imagine that, without tibet, the sources of the yellow river and yangtze river will be in the control of an 'independent foreign country', your super hydropower plant at the three gorges will be nothing but an ornament in an empty hallway, ur 1.3bil population will have less than enuff water to drink, and ur lakes will dry up if ppl upstream decide to pull the plug. needless to say, CCP will lose their popularity real fast. some railway and improvements in living standards for the tibetans is a small price to pay for all the benefits and to be able to stay in power. dont take things for granted.

just like japanese built yokohama properly or americans built seattle properly, isnt that a standard thing for the govt to do? like taking care of it's ppl. u speak as if china building up tibet is a gift from the gods and tibetans should be moved to tears or to their knees just because the chinese govt did what they are suppose to do.

[Aniki]

Having an idea is one thing. Being willing to invest a lot of resources on it is another. The fact that the NMD project was formulated in the late 50's last century does not entail the current NMD project has nothing to do with China.
China is likely to be one of the many reasons, though not the sole reasons as some claim.

Crazy. You criticizing me for not being able to sort information out and relate them with one another, just because of my alleged failure to agree with your attempts to link two remote events?

again, use ur access to infomation as u claim, why speak without checking facts?

china didnt even have a proper rocket until 1970, who is american going to defense against? a ghost in thin air? it is logical to say that some remote reasons might affect a certain project, but ur logic has to be backup with facts, esp when u are talking about a past event. china doesnt even have a missile then, and u say the initialisation of NMD had a china connection in it. who are u trying to bluff? if u havent been in the military and are not familiar with such events, please refrain from making such illogical comments.

china never came into the scene until 1980s, with their first ICBM tested. by then american and ussr already had tens of thousands of warhead, and its already more than 2 decades since the initial NMD project.

[yeung3939]

I am asking you for poll results, because you repeatedly say the majority of Tibetans want independence and hate CCP's rule. You repeatedly criticising me for 'insisting' that economic aids will (I only said may) matter to the majority of Tibetans, but you at the same time insist economic aids won't matter to them. What are your assertions based on?


I don't need to prove sqaut because you are the little Goebbels trying to explain away a major uprising. What other evidence is needed to drive the obvious point through that dense little skull of yours that happy people do not burn shops down and stage uprisings? So all that student protests and the vandalizing of foreign businesses at 1910-30s China doesn't spell major disasstisfaction of the populace?

Poll? What poll? Until your government let any credible NGO in Tibet without minders shadowing their every step you know full well this will not happen.

On what basis do you 'imagine' living standard would improve under Japanese rule? The Japanes rule was extrative colonialism, not like the current Tibet. Also, why compare with Mao's reign.


Ha! Because Mao RULED China after Japan was booted? Because Japan had one hell of a record in infrastructure building in all of its resource rich colonies?

You rely on what has not happened and will not happen. Just wild guessing. Yet you treat these guesses as sound reasoning. I refer to what has already happened (e.g. railway, increase in literacy rate, infrastructure, increase in per capita income), but you just ignore these things.


I think I have made my case quite clear. The CCP throughly ravaged Tibet like they ravaged their own country. You haven't finished making up what you OWED Tibet, and now this. Are they to thank you for liberating them from serfdom and put them into collective farms? Just how many of them died during the GLF & GPCR?

Oh... that's right. You don't even know how many of your own that government killed.

I am personally fighting those internet Brigades on Hong Kong forums, but now you dismiss me as internet brigades.

Your comments on every matter, from the Chinese expansion into Tibet, to your dogmatic insistence that all Tibetans who have protested against Chinese rule are good-for-nothing fedual theocrats (were they not 'liquidated' the last time the PLA was there? That tiny minority of theocrats have a tendency to return to Tibet everytime China needs a strawman to shoot. How peculiar! ), to the great economic progress that China had made for the Tibetans, are line from line copied from Remin Daily and Xinhua Channel. Total political correctness had so far been the theme of your rantings.

As for your professions of democratic sentiment, if you are what passed for pro-democracy intellegensia in China, your nation's propandists had truly earned their keep, let is presuming you aren't one of them.

I have never said the good reasons are the only reasons.

Enlighten us. Stop playing the old tunes. This crowd won't sing to that music. But seriously, if those were your good reasons, bring out the bad ones! I am very much intrigued

Oh, and what's that about Freedom is up for sell? So how many reminbi is life, property, and pursuit of happiness priced in your country? Would you please adjust that for inflation too?

Oh, you know the scale and prevalence of the riot? Though TV? Though spectacular pictures? The prevalence of riot in the 1910's -1930's is well recorded, but how about Tibet? You have been to Tibet? Riot necessarily means widespread discontent? So every communist uprising in the past means widespread support for communist takeover?

After all, your 'evidence' is just your impression and feeling only supported by reports of Western media and 'Da Lai Lama tells me'. As for polls, yes, CCP should allow NGOs to enter Tibet to conduct polls.

Oh, I would be very grateful if you can elaborate what Japanese did in their colonies. Anything comparable to the Tibetan railways? DId Japanese allow children to learn their mother language? Did money flow out or flow into the colonies?

Again, you are also making up your own Tibet. Well anyway I have only listed things that CCP has done and things that may induce people to support CCP's rule. I never said Tibetans think XYZ. Only you have made such kind of assertions. You certainly wouldn't believe Tibetans are actually allowed to keep pictures of Da Lai Lama in their homes, would you?

I said 'many Tibetans in exile belong to the old ruling class', not those protestors. But every credible source suggest Lama was the backbone of the protest. It may not mean anything to you though. You have your own version of Tibet.

For you, every comments contrary to what you are taught to believe are products of CCP's indoctrination. So poor. You only believe what you want to believe. I admit I am sometimes influenced by Mainland sources, but it is you who are trying to turn a highly controversial issue into a black-and-white war between good and evil. You even did so without any evidence of what Tibetans actually think. Yeah, you also need a strawman to shoot.

As for your last paragraph, you just assume the majority of Tibetans are highly concerned with nationalism and national identity. History tells us it is not always the case. I am only arguing the economic interest is a good reason for Tibetans to remain as part of CCP's China. Yet you are arguing they should not 'sell their freedom for money' (your words), without offering any evidence that shows they actually do prefer your version of freedom to better living (quite likely).

While everyone in the HOng Kong pro-democracy camp is trying to say CCP is not equal to China, you repeatedly attempt to show CCP's claim is China's claim. That's not enough.

[yeung3939]

again, use ur access to infomation as u claim, why speak without checking facts?

china didnt even have a proper rocket until 1970, who is american going to defense against? a ghost in thin air? it is logical to say that some remote reasons might affect a certain project, but ur logic has to be backup with facts, esp when u are talking about a past event. china doesnt even have a missile then, and u say the initialisation of NMD had a china connection in it. who are u trying to bluff? if u havent been in the military and are not familiar with such events, please refrain from making such illogical comments.

china never came into the scene until 1980s, with their first ICBM tested. by then american and ussr already had tens of thousands of warhead, and its already more than 2 decades since the initial NMD project.

No, I meaned the sustaining of the NMD has some connections with China. E.g. George Bush's approval of the plan. You are absolutely right to say the initialization of the plan had no connections with China.

[Inst]

Ironically this is the same argument the Japanese militarists used in the early 20th century; that they were carrying the white man's burden and modernizing their colonies.

I'm still trying to figure out what was the main reason Zhongnanhai decided to assert control in Tibet. Was it nationalism, as both the CCP government and the GMD government it replaced claimed Tibet? Was it for strategic reasons, as Tibet is the high ground, giving it an important buffer position against India, and as Tibet also contains the headwaters of East and South Asia's most important rivers? Was it for ideological reasons, as the CCP was historically quite aggressive in spreading communism? Most likely, it was a mixture of these three, but determining the order of priority seems to be a difficult thing.

[yeung3939]

Ironically this is the same argument the Japanese militarists used in the early 20th century; that they were carrying the white man's burden and modernizing their colonies.

I'm still trying to figure out what was the main reason Zhongnanhai decided to assert control in Tibet. Was it nationalism, as both the CCP government and the GMD government it replaced claimed Tibet? Was it for strategic reasons, as Tibet is the high ground, giving it an important buffer position against India, and as Tibet also contains the headwaters of East and South Asia's most important rivers? Was it for ideological reasons, as the CCP was historically quite aggressive in spreading communism? Most likely, it was a mixture of these three, but determining the order of priority seems to be a difficult thing.

The difference between the Tibet case and Japanese invasion is that the CCP has already invested a lot a lot of money on projects (infrastructure railway) that won't make profit in the foreseeable future. 83% of the Tibetan government expenditure is already paid by the Central government. Also, the Tibetan children are allowed to learn Tibetan. What did Japanese do? Build railway connecting coal fields to ports? Building dam to generate power for arms factories? Replacing local language with Japanese? Using local people for biochemical weapon tests? Base for invasion?

As for the priority problem you mentioned, perceived external threat would be an important consideration. The Chinese government fears colour revolution. Also, it is linked to the Taiwan issue.

[Inst]

Yeung, you are not considering Japanese colonialism in Korea, Taiwan, and Manchuria. They built up considerable amounts of infrastructure in these three regions.

[yeung3939]

Yeung, you are not considering Japanese colonialism in Korea, Taiwan, and Manchuria. They built up considerable amounts of infrastructure in these three regions.

I was exactly talking about these places.

[Triple C]

Yeung,

The CCP does not represent the Chinese people. But it is China's government and responsible for all of its policies, yes?

Oh, you know the scale and prevalence of the riot? Though TV? Though spectacular pictures? The prevalence of riot in the 1910's -1930's is well recorded, but how about Tibet? You have been to Tibet? Riot necessarily means widespread discontent? So every communist uprising in the past means widespread support for communist takeover?


You have been trying to finesse out of the burden of proof. I consider myself in no way obliged to prove the severity of the 'unrest' in Tibet. This is from Xinhua's own report:

"Rioters injured 623 people including 241 police and armed police and killed 18 others. They also set fire to more than 300 locations, mostly private houses, stores and schools, smashed vehicles and damaged public facilities."

Does that sound like a minor incident to you? The only incentive for misinformation in this case is to downplay, not to scale up, the magnitute of the disorder.

The total lockdown of the city to foreign observers in the first critical days, the deployment of 4,000 internal troops to Lahsa, the Panchan Lama's broadcast to contemn 'seperatist activities' to sabotage 'ethnic unity' attest to the gravity of the situation.
After all, your 'evidence' is just your impression and feeling only supported by reports of Western media and 'Da Lai Lama tells me'.

My 'impressions' are not 'supported' by the Western media. They are live footages from the scene reported by the western media. Tell me, does your government routinely send fully body armored troops and APCs to patrol the streets? Are the bird's view of the city burning shot in a Hollywood studio? Before you dismiss this with the so-called anti-Chinese bias of the western media, bear in mind that reportage of the war in Iraq & Afghanistan had drew plenty of Ameircan ire at the said media agencies. You will not be the first or the last to accuse the media of bias. That's the first thing people do when embarassing things about their country had been exposed. Then they play cry babies.

And contrary to your assertions, I had never talked to the Dali Lama. All of the sources I have used are independent of Dali Lama. The "Dali Cell" as your government is fond of calling him do not own CNN, BBC, AP, or any of the international media agencies. When all of those, pro-American and anti-American, report against your government's actions, guess what conclusion a rational man will draw?

Yet you are arguing they should not 'sell their freedom for money' (your words)

That is a blatant lie. This is what you said:

Finally, I must stress freedom can be sold for money, depending on how you define freedom.

I find it a tad ironic that a so-called pro-democracy intellectual display such relish in blungeoning a people into submission with a nice doze of cash and guns. That however sums up the CPP's governing philosophy nicely.

[hong1006]

First time to visit this forum. It is nice to see sucha long discussion about China.

I was born in Hong Kong and I studied Asia History before. I just want to complement the discussion here.

Having lived in a real colony before, I can't see how you can view this system in a positve way. Though the colonial government may have built considerable infrastructure in the teritory, the ultimate objective of which is to serve its own interest. That's what happened in Hong Kong before 1997 handover.

The chinese rule in Xijiang(Tibet) should be differentiated.

(1)The Tibetean government is hevily subsidized, making it more like a local government under unitary rule. The japanese rule in Korea, Taiwan and Manchuria is separated from the local administration in Japan proper, politically, culturally and finanically.

(2) The official language in these colonies is solely Japanese. The Tibetan language is recognised as an offical language in the region.

(3) The Tibetan people enjoy enquality in education and business practice.

(4) There is no autocratic colonial governor (Like that in Hong Kong) in Tibet.

I don't think CCP is a good polity at all. But I certainly can't agree Tibet is now treated as a colony.

[Triple C]

Yeung, you are not considering Japanese colonialism in Korea, Taiwan, and Manchuria. They built up considerable amounts of infrastructure in these three regions.

Inst, that's exactly the places that I was talking about. They erradicated virulent diseases, built railroads, factories and schools. That does not change the fact that they came uninvited.

hong1006,

No, I am not talking about colonialism in the positive. But evidently the Tibetans are none too pleased with the way they are treated. Different geo-strategic factors will shape strategy in the administration colonies. The British and the Japanese were sea based empires; Russia and China are not.

[yeung3939]

Yeung,

The CCP does not represent the Chinese people. But it is China's government and responsible for all of its policies, yes?

Oh, you know the scale and prevalence of the riot? Though TV? Though spectacular pictures? The prevalence of riot in the 1910's -1930's is well recorded, but how about Tibet? You have been to Tibet? Riot necessarily means widespread discontent? So every communist uprising in the past means widespread support for communist takeover?


You have been trying to finesse out of the burden of proof. I consider myself in no way obliged to prove the severity of the 'unrest' in Tibet. This is from Xinhua's own report:

"Rioters injured 623 people including 241 police and armed police and killed 18 others. They also set fire to more than 300 locations, mostly private houses, stores and schools, smashed vehicles and damaged public facilities."

Does that sound like a minor incident to you? The only incentive for misinformation in this case is to downplay, not to scale up, the magnitute of the disorder.

The total lockdown of the city to foreign observers in the first critical days, the deployment of 4,000 internal troops to Lahsa, the Panchan Lama's broadcast to contemn 'seperatist activities' to sabotage 'ethnic unity' attest to the gravity of the situation.
After all, your 'evidence' is just your impression and feeling only supported by reports of Western media and 'Da Lai Lama tells me'.

My 'impressions' are not 'supported' by the Western media. They are live footages from the scene reported by the western media. Tell me, does your government routinely send fully body armored troops and APCs to patrol the streets? Are the bird's view of the city burning shot in a Hollywood studio? Before you dismiss this with the so-called anti-Chinese bias of the western media, bear in mind that reportage of the war in Iraq & Afghanistan had drew plenty of Ameircan ire at the said media agencies. You will not be the first or the last to accuse the media of bias. That's the first thing people do when embarassing things about their country had been exposed. Then they play cry babies.

And contrary to your assertions, I had never talked to the Dali Lama. All of the sources I have used are independent of Dali Lama. The "Dali Cell" as your government is fond of calling him do not own CNN, BBC, AP, or any of the international media agencies. When all of those, pro-American and anti-American, report against your government's actions, guess what conclusion a rational man will draw?

Yet you are arguing they should not 'sell their freedom for money' (your words)

That is a blatant lie. This is what you said:



I find it a tad ironic that a so-called pro-democracy intellectual display such relish in blungeoning a people into submission with a nice doze of cash and guns. That however sums up the CPP's governing philosophy nicely.

So you consider you have discharged your burden of proof?
I am not saying that this riot is a minor incident, but that the riot does not necessarily reflect the majority will. Can't it be vendanlism? Can't it be a riot against CCP's failure to lower the goods price? Can't it, as the CCP claims, be a plot of Da Lai Lama? How can you tell from those pictures this incident reflect the majority will? THe majority of Tibetans is uneducated and passive. I doubt they really care about anything beyond their living.

The total lockdown of the city to foreigners can be explained by CCP's fear that some western medias will make up stories and exaggerate things. "Something terrible has happened" is not the only explanation. Plus, no one can find any evidence showing that CCP has done anything beyond restoration of order. At least nothing comparable to the TianAnMen Massacre.

Ha! Then you feel you can dismiss any claim that western media is not biased against China? How would you explain BBC's arbitrary editing of first-hand photos? How would you explain reporters' selective interviews (left immediately after the interviewees said something like 'both sides seem to have reasons')?

I wouldn't dismiss the presence of APV as bias. They are not bias and the Chinese government has admitted this. But the presence of fully armed military personnel doesn't mean much really. At least, it doesn't mean something terrible has happened. Also, it doesn't indicate the real intention of the protestors. While it can be responses, it can also be preventive measure.
Pillars of smoke only means vandalism. Yet you want to portray it as a large-scale but failed revolution.

Then, I don't see how the sentence you quoted has anything to do with my statement that you are arguing that Tibetans should not 'sell freedom for money' (in your favourite terms), not that Tibetans do refuse to do so.
In what ways did I lie?

Finally, you are just emotional and employing double standard when we come to reasoning. Also, I don't need to prove that I am fighting for Hong Kong democracy.

[Aniki]

The chinese rule in Xijiang(Tibet) should be differentiated.

(1)The Tibetean government is hevily subsidized, making it more like a local government under unitary rule. The japanese rule in Korea, Taiwan and Manchuria is separated from the local administration in Japan proper, politically, culturally and finanically.

(2) The official language in these colonies is solely Japanese. The Tibetan language is recognised as an offical language in the region.

(3) The Tibetan people enjoy enquality in education and business practice.

(4) There is no autocratic colonial governor (Like that in Hong Kong) in Tibet.

I don't think CCP is a good polity at all. But I certainly can't agree Tibet is now treated as a colony.

hong, ur first point is already a little off. japanese rule in taiwan was almost like tibet, with korea and manchuria slightly worst off, and other place like southeast asian region plainly rip-offs. taiwan was their first colony, and, like chinese govt wanted tibet to be a showcase, taiwan was the japanese showcase, to show that they can run a colony as good as any western power.

tibetan language isnt the official language in that region but probably the common language, mandarin is still the official one. it's just that central govt says they set no restrictions in the daily usage and academic research of the tibetan language.

as for education, so did ppl in taiwan, korea and manchuria enjoyed under japanese rule. but the curriculum was prepared according to japanese point of view. since taiwan and HK uses same traditional chinese, and as yeung claimed, u have acces to info, why not check up taiwanese sites for that part of history? and same thing in tibet, but prepared according to the chinese point of view. in fact, japanese probably hoped more ppl get educated according to their point of view, just like how the chinese govt hope minorities in china be educated in chinese point of view.

there is no autocratic governor, but something similiar in place. the ethnic tibetan governor is just a powerless figure-head, the real power is in the hands of the CCP secretary in the provincial/SAR govt, and is always a han chinese since 1950.