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  • Originally posted by HistoricalDavid View Post
    And what does God say?
    you can read all the Holy Books :)

    Originally posted by HistoricalDavid View Post
    Who is the arbiter and interpreter of what God says?

    The clerics? This is not a viable answer in the modern world.
    in Islam theres no cleric class, mullahs and hodjas have no place in Islam at all..

    Originally posted by HistoricalDavid View Post
    Each individual?
    yes and infact this is the first truth in Islam

    Originally posted by HistoricalDavid View Post
    Then seeing as you are referring your morality in a loop back to yourself, why not cast out God and clear the air?
    i am not arguing that someone must believe in God. this is your choice to believe or not.

    as a Muslim i am not the one who can judge you. judging someone for his beliefs is playing God which is the biggest sin.

    infact theres many verses in Quran says that we can not force(in any manner) people. only thing that we can is to tell you about Quran...

    Originally posted by HistoricalDavid View Post
    And why should I submit to God, assuming he exists?
    like i've stated above, it is your choice that we must recpect.

    but never forget, this "submission" is not a slavery. contrary in Quran you can see that Humanity is free to choose his own way...like you...
    Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none; be able for thine enemy rather in power than use; and keep thy friend under thine own life's key; be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Big K View Post
      as a Muslim i am not the one who can judge you. judging someone for his beliefs is playing God which is the biggest sin.

      infact theres many verses in Quran says that we can not force(in any manner) people. only thing that we can is to tell you about Quran...



      like i've stated above, it is your choice that we must recpect.

      but never forget, this "submission" is not a slavery. contrary in Quran you can see that Humanity is free to choose his own way...like you...
      Ahmet, that is why Turkey is what it is; a secular progressive modern state. Sadly, elsewhere majority of Muslims don't share your interpretation of Islam.
      Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
      -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

      Comment


      • Originally posted by captain View Post
        I also noted Parihaka's comments and his use of the term "filth" when refering to the doco.
        I am not sure if that reference was in relation to the contents of the newsreel clips or as a remark aimed generically at the doco and Wilders.
        If it was the latter them I am dissapointed that such an emotive term has been used given that the people who use that term the most and with maximum venom possible are the Islamic extremists of the world who use the word "filth" to variously describe religions, cultures, societies and people who are not Islamic and dare to critisize their certain notion of right to supremacy.
        I can assure you I used the term filth to describe the film. I won't use the term documentary or doco to describe it as making those is what I do for a living and it most certainly is nothing like a documentary.

        What it is of course is a small collection of sayings from the Koran, coupled with video and still footage of terrorist atrocities from around the world. The obvious intent is to conflate the Koran with terrorism, and to associate all Muslims with terrorism.
        No attempt is made to differentiate the >99.9999% of Muslims who have never and will never commit an act of terrorism from the .<00001% who have or will: no attempt is made to do anything except to associate all Islam with butchery and murder. Until such time as Mr Wilders can demonstrate to me that other than by means of this hate filled ******** that all Muslims are terrorists, I will agree with his right to propagate his filth, and call it what it is: FILTH.
        He is a propagandist who would have made Goebels proud if he had worked for him, and I have no doubt Wilders would have if he'd had the chance.



        As a comparison, re-watch Wilders film, then read the review of the film the poster below advertises.





        Papers on 'The Eternal Jew' by Stig Hornshoj-Moller


        Same old same old.
        In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

        Leibniz

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
          What it is of course is a small collection of sayings from the Koran, coupled with video and still footage of terrorist atrocities from around the world. The obvious intent is to conflate the Koran with terrorism, and to associate all Muslims with terrorism.
          Obviously, but if one is stupid enough to equate it with all muslims then your intelligence becomes an altogether different question.

          [/QUOTE]
          No attempt is made to differentiate the >99.9999% of Muslims who have never and will never commit an act of terrorism from the .<00001% who have or will: no attempt is made to do anything except to associate all Islam with butchery and murder. [/QUOTE]

          Interesting statistic. Wherever did you find it? I would think that be a bit higher. The other factor here is sharia law which may not be considered terrorism as such but bears a close from the perspective of women.

          BIG K

          Big K, there will always be racism and bigotry. If you are a moderate and practice your faith in peace then you should always strive to so. I think those of us who understand the issue are niether racists or bigots. No one likes to see killing in general, thats why prisons around the world are packed because no one wants to clean house. Perhaps we are a bit too tolerant as a species. The footage in the video does not lie, the interpretations will always be open for interpretation as any other religious document. Only the weak mind buys into propaganda. The video shows no moderate or peaceful muslims because they are not the ones committing these acts. You wouldn't make a video about cars if you were trying to sell boats. Lets fix what we can. Peaceful muslims should be leading the charge against radicalism and I'll guarantee if you do that I'll be right beside you helping.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by 7thsfsniper View Post
            ...Peaceful muslims should be leading the charge against radicalism and I'll guarantee if you do that I'll be right beside you helping.
            my friend this is a whole other subject to debate...so much to say about it as a Turkish Muslim but this is going off-topic i think...
            Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none; be able for thine enemy rather in power than use; and keep thy friend under thine own life's key; be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech.

            Comment


            • BIG K,

              THere is an obivious difference between turkish way of islam and wahhabi (largest).

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Tronic View Post
                Adu, Muslims also do make such materials; Taslima Nasreen and Salman Rushdie come to mind. Difference is that they both have had to go underground. And as for allowing the material into mainstream, tell me again how many states had to ban Da Vinci Code due to Christian protests?
                tronic, I think those people you had mentioned are provacative people.
                I have never been able to understand why they have never applied the change they desire first for theirselves. they are not good examples.
                sigpicaction speaks louder than words

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Tronic View Post
                  Adu, problem is not Taaqiyah. The problem is distinguishing between radicals and the non-radicals. If you attack Islam as a whole, then you run the risk of isolating and possibly even driving the moderates into the radical camp. This problem can't be solved by attacking entire communities; but by rooting out the fanatic elements; which a lot of governments are failing to do; and which our government is actually doing the opposite, i.e. giving voice to the radicals as "freedom of speech" but suppressing the moderates from attacking radical Islam by terming it "freedom of religion." The problem is the governments which are allowing this to happen, not entirely the society. (And this is the fact which a lot of people refuse to digest).
                  very good post. but one should not underestimate the Taqiyyah and the wars for power and money.
                  sigpicaction speaks louder than words

                  Comment


                  • Aren't there laws against hate speech in EU or US? This movie seems like a perfect example of hate speech. It targets a specific group (muslims) and tries to portray them as terrorists and murderers.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by 7thsfsniper View Post
                      Obviously, but if one is stupid enough to equate it with all muslims then your intelligence becomes an altogether different question.
                      Quotes from the Koran. Adhan. Muslims protesting. Acts of terrorism. All bundled together without even a narative, simply guilt by association.
                      The only stupidity is in attempting to claim it is anything else than hate propaganda.

                      Originally posted by 7thsfsniper View Post
                      Interesting statistic. Wherever did you find it? I would think that be a bit higher.
                      While numbers are difficult to attain
                      The National Counter Terrorism Center Country Reports on Terrorism 2005 included a Statistical Annex [2]. According to the Statistical Annex, there were 11,111 terrorist attacks in 2005 of which 3,474 occurred in Iraq and 489 occurred in Afghanistan.
                      Lets multiply that by ten years, which gives us 111,110 terrorist attacks. Obviously some years,especially in Iraq, may have had more attacks, but most would have had less. So what percentage is that of the roughly 1.5 billion (estimates vary). You do the math.

                      Originally posted by 7thsfsniper View Post
                      The other factor here is sharia law which may not be considered terrorism as such but bears a close from the perspective of women.
                      We happen to have a Muslim woman living with us at the moment and she agrees with you. She despises Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan and Iraq 'because the men there are such idiots'. Hardly something which rules all Islam.
                      In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                      Leibniz

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by TTL View Post
                        Aren't there laws against hate speech in EU or US? This movie seems like a perfect example of hate speech. It targets a specific group (muslims) and tries to portray them as terrorists and murderers.
                        Correct! andyour point is?

                        Comment


                        • I don't hate who they are, but what they do.

                          Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
                          I can assure you I used the term filth to describe the film. I won't use the term documentary or doco to describe it as making those is what I do for a living and it most certainly is nothing like a documentary.

                          What it is of course is a small collection of sayings from the Koran, coupled with video and still footage of terrorist atrocities from around the world. The obvious intent is to conflate the Koran with terrorism, and to associate all Muslims with terrorism.
                          No attempt is made to differentiate the >99.9999% of Muslims who have never and will never commit an act of terrorism from the .<00001% who have or will: no attempt is made to do anything except to associate all Islam with butchery and murder. Until such time as Mr Wilders can demonstrate to me that other than by means of this hate filled ******** that all Muslims are terrorists, I will agree with his right to propagate his filth, and call it what it is: FILTH.
                          He is a propagandist who would have made Goebels proud if he had worked for him, and I have no doubt Wilders would have if he'd had the chance.



                          As a comparison, re-watch Wilders film, then read the review of the film the poster below advertises.





                          Papers on 'The Eternal Jew' by Stig Hornshoj-Moller


                          Same old same old.



                          The film is not made up filth by Mr. Wilder, its content is the embodiment of the people perpetrating it. It is consistent with what is being said in Mosques the world over that does not get much press because it is considered "hate speech".

                          Hitler created reality to dupe his minions. These guys are actually doing this.

                          We are doomed when freedom of speech and truth are bandied about as hate speech.





                          Ivan

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by brokensickle View Post
                            The film is not made up filth by Mr. Wilder, its content is the embodiment of the people perpetrating it. It is consistent with what is being said in Mosques the world over that does not get much press because it is considered "hate speech".

                            Hitler created reality to dupe his minions. These guys are actually doing this.

                            We are doomed when freedom of speech and truth are bandied about as hate speech.





                            Ivan
                            You want to have a discussion about how mainstream Islam needs to do more to counter terrorism, I'm all for it.
                            Want to talk about the problems of assimilation or lack of it for some Muslims in Europe, go right ahead.
                            Or how Islam needs a reformation and the establishment of a titular head along the lines of Christendom?
                            How the house of Saud runs indoctrination camps in Pakistan to encourage the ethos of anti-westernism and an ideal recruiting place for terrorists?
                            How the Taliban has become inseperable from autonomy for Balochistan, Waziristan and the NWFP, and now basically represents the pre-Durand line tribal affiliations?
                            In all these discussions I'll read avidly and contribute what I can, but if you want me to sit back and listen to nothing more than "Muslims terrorists, Koran promotes terrorism, Muslims terrorists, Koran promotes terrorism, Muslims terrorists, Koran promotes terrorism," with nothing more to add, I'm going to call such filth, filth.
                            The girl who boards with us isn't a terrorist, but this 'film' says she is because she's Muslim and follows the dictates of her religion. My wife's English-raised ethnic Pakistan friend is by this films reckoning a terrorist because she reads the Koran and is a Muslim. One of my best editors is a terrorist because he's a Muslim.
                            That is what this film says, Koran = terrorism = Muslim = terrorist.
                            It doesn't say anything else, it doesn't discuss any of the issues I've outlined above, it is nothing more than a puerile and simplistic call to hate, as puerile and as simplistic and as hateful as the worst propaganda of OBL and his irhabi chums.
                            In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                            Leibniz

                            Comment


                            • Geert Wilders made an awesome film, I support it and I also see the dangerous threat.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
                                No attempt is made to differentiate the >99.9999% of Muslims who have never and will never commit an act of terrorism from the .<00001% who have or will: no attempt is made to do anything except to associate all Islam with butchery and murder.
                                This is quite interesting to me. Do we also count all those who incite violence? You know, the characters who say "Death to infidels" without actually doing any killing. How about people who contribute money on the streets of karachi to "kill the infidel soldiers"? How about the corrupt official/govt. employee under orders to let certain jihadis continue their training camps in Pakistan? All those mullahs inciting the masses, all those internet geeks calling for the death of any character remotely saying/doing anything which might sound insulting to Islam? They aren't doing any killing but does incitement to murder count?

                                I'm not saying that Islam or its adherents are all bad or somehow they're in some kind of evil plan. Obviously on this board alone, people like BigK disprove that theory. I'm just saying that terrorism of any kind must have some element of support in a population to be able to survive for so long.
                                "Of all the manifestations of power, restraint impresses men the most." - Thucydides

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