Every religion is modernized. The ones that fail to keep up with modernization are the ones that fail. If you read the Quran and fail to recognize change in society, and take it as it was written centuries ago, then theres a problem; AQ and ALL muslim terrorists go by the Quran as it WAS. Christianity, Hinduism, and Bhudism all have gone through modern changes and are upto date, why can't hardcore Islam followers? I watched the documentary, it didn't say ALL muslims are terrorists. But go around the world and pin point every terrorist organization, you will find that almost ALL are muslim. That is why everyone points a finger. Besides Turkey muslims, find me muslims that are sincerely FOR the war in Afghanistan, and sincerely on the side of the US (american muslim citizens). There shouldn't be a political agenda behind it, it should be genuine.
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Originally posted by chankya View PostThis is quite interesting to me. Do we also count all those who incite violence? You know, the characters who say "Death to infidels" without actually doing any killing. How about people who contribute money on the streets of karachi to "kill the infidel soldiers"? How about the corrupt official/govt. employee under orders to let certain jihadis continue their training camps in Pakistan? All those mullahs inciting the masses, all those internet geeks calling for the death of any character remotely saying/doing anything which might sound insulting to Islam? They aren't doing any killing but does incitement to murder count?
No exceptions, no grey areas, no 'supporters but not terrorists', no 'sympathy but not support' and no 'I don't support terrorism', just Muslim = Terrorist.In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.
Leibniz
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Originally posted by Mobbme View PostI watched the documentary, it didn't say ALL muslims are terrorists.
Just one each will do.Last edited by Parihaka; 05 Apr 08,, 02:15.In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.
Leibniz
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PARI, thanks for kickin' the banned. I asked permission to put this here, you granted. It goes to show we don't need the first ammendment to exchange thoughts. Only manners.
I want to clear my point for you. the muslim woman living with you, as also any of the muslims I work with, has no desire to behead either of us and was not depicted in any of the footage shown. The footage is extremists! This is not a fantasy or a fabrication! Your friend=my friend. No one depicted on the video is a friend to you or I, can I assume that? I think yes, because we are peace loving, tolerant people who are fine until something bad happens. Then , whoever did it, is my enemy and deserves my wrath. Save the muslim=terrorist thing for the morons, I think most here at the WAB know the difference. Extremist(insert religion here)=terrorist! in my opinion.
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Originally posted by chankya View PostThis is quite interesting to me. Do we also count all those who incite violence? You know, the characters who say "Death to infidels" without actually doing any killing. How about people who contribute money on the streets of karachi to "kill the infidel soldiers"? How about the corrupt official/govt. employee under orders to let certain jihadis continue their training camps in Pakistan? All those mullahs inciting the masses, all those internet geeks calling for the death of any character remotely saying/doing anything which might sound insulting to Islam? They aren't doing any killing but does incitement to murder count?
I'm not saying that Islam or its adherents are all bad or somehow they're in some kind of evil plan. Obviously on this board alone, people like BigK disprove that theory. I'm just saying that terrorism of any kind must have some element of support in a population to be able to survive for so long.
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Originally posted by Parihaka View PostI can assure you I used the term filth to describe the film. I won't use the term documentary or doco to describe it as making those is what I do for a living and it most certainly is nothing like a documentary.
What it is of course is a small collection of sayings from the Koran, coupled with video and still footage of terrorist atrocities from around the world. The obvious intent is to conflate the Koran with terrorism, and to associate all Muslims with terrorism.
No attempt is made to differentiate the >99.9999% of Muslims who have never and will never commit an act of terrorism from the .<00001% who have or will: no attempt is made to do anything except to associate all Islam with butchery and murder. Until such time as Mr Wilders can demonstrate to me that other than by means of this hate filled ******** that all Muslims are terrorists, I will agree with his right to propagate his filth, and call it what it is: FILTH.
He is a propagandist who would have made Goebels proud if he had worked for him, and I have no doubt Wilders would have if he'd had the chance.
As a comparison, re-watch Wilders film, then read the review of the film the poster below advertises.
Papers on 'The Eternal Jew' by Stig Hornshoj-Moller
Same old same old.
I have not read anything by Wilders or heard any interview by Wilders where he claims that all muslims are terrorists.
The film did however show clips of terror perpetrated by muslims.
Your claim that he attempted to conflate the koran with terrorism is quite true and is exatly what the intent of the film is.
Your claim that <.00001% of muslims would be prepared to perform an act of terrorism is interesting and I would like to see a link to a credible source that would confirm that.
I also read the link you provided "the eternal Jew".
To manage to make a comparison between the Nazi film and Fitna is drawing a long bow indeed.
Wilder's film used footage of real events to make his point whereas the nazi's used imagery including depicting Jews as plauge rats jumping at the camera.
Wilders issue is with the Koran and its violent verses.
The film made by the Nazi's had issue with the existence the Jewish people.
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Originally posted by captain View PostSo I did watch the film again and nowhere in that film did Wilders equate all muslims with terrorism.
I have not read anything by Wilders or heard any interview by Wilders where he claims that all muslims are terrorists.
The film did however show clips of terror perpetrated by muslims.
Your claim that he attempted to conflate the koran with terrorism is quite true and is exatly what the intent of the film is.
Your claim that <.00001% of muslims would be prepared to perform an act of terrorism is interesting and I would like to see a link to a credible source that would confirm that.
Originally posted by captain View PostI also read the link you provided "the eternal Jew".
To manage to make a comparison between the Nazi film and Fitna is drawing a long bow indeed.
Wilder's film used footage of real events to make his point whereas the nazi's used imagery including depicting Jews as plauge rats jumping at the camera.
Wilders issue is with the Koran and its violent verses.
The film made by the Nazi's had issue with the existence the Jewish people.
********, and you know it.
Koran.
Terrorism.
Koran
Terrorism
Koran
Terrorism
Koran
Terrorism.
In case it has escaped you, the Koran is the foundation of Islam.
Now how about answering some of these questions?
Originally posted by Parihaka View PostSo tell me, you and all those others who think this is a good movie, what does this movie say? What quotes can you give me, and what time did they happen in the film? Anything will do, all the points regarding Islam that people have raised in relation to this discussion, where in this film, at what time on the timeline does it discuss these issues?
Just one each will do.In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.
Leibniz
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Originally posted by 7thsfsniper View PostPARI, thanks for kickin' the banned. I asked permission to put this here, you granted. It goes to show we don't need the first ammendment to exchange thoughts. Only manners.
I want to clear my point for you. the muslim woman living with you, as also any of the muslims I work with, has no desire to behead either of us and was not depicted in any of the footage shown. The footage is extremists! This is not a fantasy or a fabrication! Your friend=my friend. No one depicted on the video is a friend to you or I, can I assume that? I think yes, because we are peace loving, tolerant people who are fine until something bad happens. Then , whoever did it, is my enemy and deserves my wrath. Save the muslim=terrorist thing for the morons, I think most here at the WAB know the difference. Extremist(insert religion here)=terrorist! in my opinion.In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.
Leibniz
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By the way: if I seem dismissive in this thread; or more hostile than my usual self it's because we have argued around the culpability of Muslims in general for terrorism before.
This thread for instance. It predates me becoming a moderator, and is worth the time to read in full.In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.
Leibniz
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I want to share my thoughts anymore and reflections of the movie fitna. I have been following the thread since the initial post.
I wanted to make contribution but what I intend to say frightens me.Why? I am afraid of a violent opposition as a result of possible misunderstandings that this movie may have caused. to let you know, normal muslims (normal people of the muslim world) never wants to behead you as a result of Iraqi war. number of peaceful muslims outnumbers the extremists.
to tell the truth, we have been managed by our fears. and those,who know our fears are really expert in using our fears.sigpicaction speaks louder than words
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I will tell you what,
what if another extremist from so called muslims would produce a movie against "Fıtna" that shıows Christians' massacres committed against Muslims.
unfortunately, it would be worse than Chernobyl calamity. :(sigpicaction speaks louder than words
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Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
Lets multiply that by ten years, which gives us 111,110 terrorist attacks. Obviously some years,especially in Iraq, may have had more attacks, but most would have had less. So what percentage is that of the roughly 1.5 billion (estimates vary). You do the math.
Previously you claimed less than .00001% of muslims would ever be inclined to acts of terrorism.
0.00001% of 1,500,000,000 is 15,000 but leave that figure for the moment.
To use the number of terrorist attacks Vs the total population of muslims is mathematical dishonesty, so much so that a junior high school kid would spot it straight away.
Those two sets are exclusive.
eg. At the moment there is a terrorism trial going on in Melbourne where the accused planned to blow up a sporting stadium with the intent of causing a minimum of 1,000 deaths.
If the sheikh and his band of jihadists had succeeded then your total of terrorist attacks would have been increased by one even though there are currently 12 of them facing the charge for the same terrorism plot.
Back to the 15,000 figure.
Last year a poll was conducted in Britaian amoungst the muslim population.
What that poll found was that 7%, IIRC, of Britain's 1.8 million muslims supported OBL and would be prepared to wage violent jihad.
Lets be fair and remove from that population, 60% who are those less than say 15 years of age and those over 55 years of age.
40% of 1.8 million is 720,000 and lets also remove half of that sample because they are female and would never do such things so we are left with 360,000 and 7% of that is 25,200.
It appears your 15,000 figure is looking a bit underdone because Britain has all of the potential terrorists plus some.
Good news for the rest of the world including Germany, Spain, France, The Netherlands, Austria, Belgium, Canada, the US and of course Australia because Brittain is hanging on to more than their share.
A set of statistics that has a little more credability is available from the following link;
Pew Global Attitudes Project: Introduction and Summary: The Great Divide: How Westerners and Muslims View Each Other
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Originally posted by Parihaka View PostWell certainly Wilders counted them all. He counted every single muslim without exception, from the smallest baby to the oldest matriarch and everyone in between, because after all, Koran = terrorism = muslim = terrorist.
No exceptions, no grey areas, no 'supporters but not terrorists', no 'sympathy but not support' and no 'I don't support terrorism', just Muslim = Terrorist.
I have never seen anything from him that makes a claim like that but I would be prepared to read, watch or listen to anything where that claim is clearly and unambiguously made.
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Originally posted by Parihaka View PostSo tell me, you and all those others who think this is a good movie, what does this movie say? What quotes can you give me, and what time did they happen in the film? Anything will do, all the points regarding Islam that people have raised in relation to this discussion, where in this film, at what time on the timeline does it discuss these issues?
Just one each will do.
"For it is not up to me, but to Muslims themselves to tear out the hateful verses from the Quran"
Wilders is just one more of a great many who have expressed that desire.
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