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Fidel Castro Resigns Cuban Presidency

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  • #61
    Originally posted by chankya View Post
    Too, doctors in the US routinely recommend a battery of tests which are not recommended elsewhere.(I base this on conversations with cousins who are doctors in US, India and the UK. So I can't really back this up with hard evidence. I'll go look for papers on this. Meanwhile I'd be interested to see if any other foreigners working/living in the US have a similar experience) Why? Some of it comes down to fear of malpractice suits. The cost of medical care in the US is exorbitant. It doesn't necessarily reflect the quality of the care.
    I will agree that the United States gets substantially less bang for our buck when it comes to health care, and that is a problem that both major parties agree on, although they differ sharply as to how to resolve it... however we are not comparable to Cuba. Plenty of Cubans living here in the US can go back to Cuba occasionally to visit family, and see the quality of healthcare available to the average citizen (this is important, because the average Cuban doesn't go to the same facilities that they show foriegners). They don't tend to be impressed.

    I don't really know where this argument started, but comparing availability of revolutionary new drugs in the US to anywhere else in the world is unfair. The US has a larger pharmaceutical industry than anywhere else. Access to basic medicine is way more important in the overall scheme of things. How much(relatively) do pills to cure stomache cost? Diarrhea? How about contraceptives? That kind of thing in my opinion is way more important.
    Why isn't it fair? Part of what enabled that pharmaceutical industry to develop is the encouragement of free enterprise that makes the US so wealthy. If we were communist we wouldn't have the base of wealth to go on in the first place.

    And the cost of basic medicine for basic things isn't something I ever really thought about. It isn't something that I have ever had a hard time purchasing, nor anyone I know. The vast majority of Americans have sufficient disposable income to purchase any of these "minor" medicines... now whether or not they choose to purchase something else and do without the medicine is up to them.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by lwarmonger View Post
      I will agree that the United States gets substantially less bang for our buck when it comes to health care, and that is a problem that both major parties agree on, although they differ sharply as to how to resolve it... however we are not comparable to Cuba. Plenty of Cubans living here in the US can go back to Cuba occasionally to visit family, and see the quality of healthcare available to the average citizen (this is important, because the average Cuban doesn't go to the same facilities that they show foriegners). They don't tend to be impressed.
      I remember you bringing up a similar argument about Vietnam in this or another thread. My experience has been that people who leave a country always tend to have reservations about it. My aunt who is a naturalized US citizen for instance refuses to believe that India has a better communications infrastructure than the US. No amount of trips to India and evidence to the contrary will convince her otherwise.(I only bring up communications because I'm a commn. Enggr.) I've seen a lot of people of different nationalities like that. People who need a reason to convince themselves that they're better off now than they were before. They don't really realize that they are doing it either. So you'll forgive me if I don't consider that a valid argument.


      Why isn't it fair? Part of what enabled that pharmaceutical industry to develop is the encouragement of free enterprise that makes the US so wealthy. If we were communist we wouldn't have the base of wealth to go on in the first place.
      Okay, "Unfair" was a poor choice. Let me put it this way. The original reply was to a point Shek made about access to cutting edge stuff. Developing nations have a far more limited pool of money to spend. So if $100 will help keep a hundred people healthy but this brand new kick-ass killer drug that costs another $100 will keep an additional individual healthy then you can understand why that addnl. $100 will likely be spent on something else. In fact it's true of America too. The question is about the level at which the cost outweighs the benefit. If at 1/30th the cost they can provide care for 100 as opposed to the 105 that would have been treated in the US, I'd say the citizens are doing okay.

      I don't know what this has to do with capitalism. My friend in Canada complains of long waiting lists for visits to the doctor. She nipped across the border to see a doctor instead. I'd say her access the medicine is pretty stunted.

      And the cost of basic medicine for basic things isn't something I ever really thought about. It isn't something that I have ever had a hard time purchasing, nor anyone I know. The vast majority of Americans have sufficient disposable income to purchase any of these "minor" medicines... now whether or not they choose to purchase something else and do without the medicine is up to them.
      I don't really know how it compares with Cuba. Either way my point is that it would be a better metric of easy access to health care.

      My point all along has never been that I think Cuba has great healthcare. Fact is I don't know what their system is like. What I'm pointing out is that amount of money spent in raw terms is a bad statistic(when used as a measure of access to health care) especially for the US.
      "Of all the manifestations of power, restraint impresses men the most." - Thucydides

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      • #63
        Originally posted by chankya View Post
        I remember you bringing up a similar argument about Vietnam in this or another thread. My experience has been that people who leave a country always tend to have reservations about it. My aunt who is a naturalized US citizen for instance refuses to believe that India has a better communications infrastructure than the US. No amount of trips to India and evidence to the contrary will convince her otherwise.(I only bring up communications because I'm a commn. Enggr.) I've seen a lot of people of different nationalities like that. People who need a reason to convince themselves that they're better off now than they were before. They don't really realize that they are doing it either. So you'll forgive me if I don't consider that a valid argument.
        Well, one of them is a self-proclaimed socialist (much to the dismay of his parents) and none of the ones that I know actually left Cuba... they've been born and raised here in the states. I wouldn't consider their thinking to be biased in that respect... in fact I think it is some of the least biased opinion I can find, since they don't have anything to prove to me (and they get to see what things are like for Cubans, not for visitors to Cuba).

        And so who provides reliable information on this if people who haven't seen it first hand can't? Outsiders getting tours of Cuba only get shown the best facilities. The Cuban government is naturally going to say "life is great!" After that what do we have to go on, except the number of people (Cubans even) who have, and continue, to come to the United States and the information given to us by Cubans who go back to visit?

        Okay, "Unfair" was a poor choice. Let me put it this way. The original reply was to a point Shek made about access to cutting edge stuff. Developing nations have a far more limited pool of money to spend. So if $100 will help keep a hundred people healthy but this brand new kick-ass killer drug that costs another $100 will keep an additional individual healthy then you can understand why that addnl. $100 will likely be spent on something else. In fact it's true of America too. The question is about the level at which the cost outweighs the benefit. If at 1/30th the cost they can provide care for 100 as opposed to the 105 that would have been treated in the US, I'd say the citizens are doing okay.
        This argument ignores the quality of health care, and merely focuses on the numbers (something Communism is fantastic at). I for one, would much rather seek treatment with an American doctor with American facilities than a Cuban one. Health care may be more universal in Cuba (I honestly don't know... that would require two very different systems to be compared, because anyone can seek emergency medical treatment at a hospital here in the states), but it is very far below American standards.

        I don't know what this has to do with capitalism. My friend in Canada complains of long waiting lists for visits to the doctor. She nipped across the border to see a doctor instead. I'd say her access the medicine is pretty stunted.
        So Canada has stunted access to health care and she went to the United States to get it faster? I would argue that this is an argument in favor of the US and private health care more than anything else.


        I don't really know how it compares with Cuba. Either way my point is that it would be a better metric of easy access to health care.

        My point all along has never been that I think Cuba has great healthcare. Fact is I don't know what their system is like. What I'm pointing out is that amount of money spent in raw terms is a bad statistic(when used as a measure of access to health care) especially for the US.
        Only in some respects. It would be a good metric of determining easy access to basic healthcare, but say you have a problem that your family doctor can't do anything about or even diagnose. You are going to want to be able to get a specialist of some kind to help... which is why basic healthcare only goes so far.

        Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of problems with our system... however the constant comparisons between the US and Cuba that are made by so many lefties and socialists are completely rediculous.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by gamercube View Post
          Revision: A CT scan probably costs $0 in Cuba, because they have free, universal health care. So who is spending more?



          No.
          OK, whatever floats your boat.

          Do you live in Cuba? Do you want to move there if you don't live there already?
          "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by gunnut View Post
            OK, whatever floats your boat.

            Do you live in Cuba? Do you want to move there if you don't live there already?
            Already asked him that GN ages ago....avoids the question
            sigpicFEAR NAUGHT

            Should raw analytical data ever be passed to policy makers?

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            • #66
              Originally posted by T_igger_cs_30 View Post
              Must be awesome.................what part of Cuba do you live in? I am thinking of a holiday there .....
              sigpicFEAR NAUGHT

              Should raw analytical data ever be passed to policy makers?

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by gunnut View Post
                OK, whatever floats your boat.

                Do you live in Cuba? Do you want to move there if you don't live there already?
                Ad hominem.(cleverly disguised though)
                Attack his premise instead.

                As a logical extension (or progression if you will) of your style of reasoning (in this instance)I have a question:

                If the "Democratik People's Republik of Kalifornia" is so bad and the style of government so distasteful (as it obviously must be) why have you not left?


                I would love to live there.
                :))

                Bodie (A South African Irishman living in Cape Town)


                My *new sig*

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by lwarmonger View Post
                  And so who provides reliable information on this if people who haven't seen it first hand can't?
                  Then we'll have to agree to disagree. I still believe that a lot of people who emigrate have a prejudiced opinion of wherever they emigrated from.

                  Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of problems with our system... however the constant comparisons between the US and Cuba that are made by so many lefties and socialists are completely rediculous.
                  I don't think you could really compare the US system with any other in the world. For all its flaws the range of care available especially for children is truly amazing. (While in school I had friends who were in the dept of commn. disorders. I'm quite in awe of the amount of research and treatment that is put into kids with ASD in the states. )
                  "Of all the manifestations of power, restraint impresses men the most." - Thucydides

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by chankya View Post
                    I still believe that a lot of people who emigrate have a prejudiced opinion of wherever they emigrated from.
                    Absolutely. I wish I could afford to leave the UK, its dying fast.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by bodie View Post
                      Ad hominem.(cleverly disguised though)
                      Attack his premise instead.
                      Did you read my previous posts to him?

                      Originally posted by bodie View Post
                      As a logical extension (or progression if you will) of your style of reasoning (in this instance)I have a question:

                      If the "Democratik People's Republik of Kalifornia" is so bad and the style of government so distasteful (as it obviously must be) why have you not left?


                      I would love to live there.
                      :))

                      Bodie (A South African Irishman living in Cape Town)


                      My *new sig*
                      I plan to leave as soon as I save up enough money to move, preferably to Las Vegas.
                      "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by T_igger_cs_30 View Post
                        Already asked him that GN ages ago....avoids the question
                        Just want to ask him again, in case he missed your question ealier. :)
                        "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by chankya View Post
                          Then we'll have to agree to disagree. I still believe that a lot of people who emigrate have a prejudiced opinion of wherever they emigrated from.
                          Alright, fair enough... however keep in mind that none of the Cubans I know personally were born in Cuba. They have lived their lives in the US, and go back to Cuba to see family that is still there. They didn't emigrate at all.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by lwarmonger View Post
                            Alright, fair enough... however keep in mind that none of the Cubans I know personally were born in Cuba. They have lived their lives in the US, and go back to Cuba to see family that is still there. They didn't emigrate at all.
                            You're probably right. I might just be projecting certain personal prejudices about Indian-Americans onto your cuban friends.
                            "Of all the manifestations of power, restraint impresses men the most." - Thucydides

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Cuba has some excellent policies for its population and some dreadful ones too!

                              Health care and education are two important aspects that requires universal attention.

                              So does the freedom of thought, speech and lifestyle.


                              "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

                              I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

                              HAKUNA MATATA

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Tarek Morgen View Post
                                According to Skyn new Castros retirement has just been announced
                                I can imagine Intelligence agencies around the world must be working like crazy to find out what will happen in Cuba now!
                                Will his son keep power in the family or will the US or Russians try to influence the country more now?
                                It is very interesting times.

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