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Thread: China; Land of poisoned Milk and Honey

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    China; Land of poisoned Milk and Honey

    Day after day reports air on the growing horror stories coming out of China with respect to virtually every product produced in that Country being so full of deadly contaminants the West should immediately close their borders to Chinese commerce. Whats to fear.Their products will incur far more deaths than any marching Chinese Army could muster. Hell, their boots would likely fall apart as they march. However, long before that happened the peoples army would collapse and die from Asama attacks, because of that wonderful Chinese air which is so full of pollutants on a windy day the air clicks and cracks as it to rushes by to a cleaner anywhere. The upcoming Olympics could actually produce the worlds first athletic deaths due to the massive air pollution around Beijing. What do we get in exchange for the poisonous products the Chinese are flooding the west with? Lost manufacturing jobs.Factories that are closed and dismantled permanently,and sick kids who did little more than play with cheap deadly toys that were a scant few years before produced safely somewhere in North America. We feed them,we buy their cheap deadly products,and we let them steal and copy almost everything that has a moving part with little or no challenges to this criminal behaviour. Scary thing is, this is just China. The multitudes of third world countries playing this deadly game are as numerous as they are a drain to the wests manufacturing capabilities. Thoughts folks?

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    exarecr,

    this is something that's occurred in every developing country, the US included. ironically the only way to solve this IS free trade- competition forces them to clean up their (literally) dirty work.

    you think what we receive here is bad- let me assure you, what they produce domestically is over ten times worse.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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    and i should know- i'll be in china in a day or two.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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    Day after day reports air on the growing horror stories coming out of China with respect to virtually every product produced in that Country being so full of deadly contaminants the West should immediately close their borders to Chinese commerce. Whats to fear.Their products will incur far more deaths than any marching Chinese Army could muster. Hell, their boots would likely fall apart as they march. However, long before that happened the peoples army would collapse and die from Asama attacks, because of that wonderful Chinese air which is so full of pollutants on a windy day the air clicks and cracks as it to rushes by to a cleaner anywhere. The upcoming Olympics could actually produce the worlds first athletic deaths due to the massive air pollution around Beijing. What do we get in exchange for the poisonous products the Chinese are flooding the west with? Lost manufacturing jobs.Factories that are closed and dismantled permanently,and sick kids who did little more than play with cheap deadly toys that were a scant few years before produced safely somewhere in North America. We feed them,we buy their cheap deadly products,and we let them steal and copy almost everything that has a moving part with little or no challenges to this criminal behaviour. Scary thing is, this is just China. The multitudes of third world countries playing this deadly game are as numerous as they are a drain to the wests manufacturing capabilities. Thoughts folks?
    Exarecr is online now Reply With Quote
    I agree.

    And of course our business elites are supporting an oppressive regime and enemy by giving it a life line.
    To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

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    There was a special on that that was broadcast. The chinese markets also sell fried cardboard and trick people into thinking its BREAD. Can you believe that? Imagine pasting your cardboard with poisonous margarine or butter, then eating it with a big glass of poisonous milk. And to top things off, throw a little transfat oil on it. I hope our athletes stick to minute noodles

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    Quote Originally Posted by troung View Post
    I agree.

    And of course our business elites are supporting an oppressive regime and enemy by giving it a life line.
    Oh come on now, you think if China had open elections they wouldn't elect some "progressive" government that would put China back 20 year economically and piss off the the entire world by "nationalizing" all those private factories.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobbme View Post
    There was a special on that that was broadcast. The chinese markets also sell fried cardboard and trick people into thinking its BREAD. Can you believe that? Imagine pasting your cardboard with poisonous margarine or butter, then eating it with a big glass of poisonous milk. And to top things off, throw a little transfat oil on it. I hope our athletes stick to minute noodles
    Trans fat, lol, you were actually logical until you went there. Honestly, you think if people are consuming items that are of a dubious toxicity trans fat would be their last worry. Moreover, if the food was not toxic, what are the harms of trans fat as compared to non-trans fat deep dried food? I am just waiting for the day when the health nuts denounce eating in general.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Exarecr View Post
    What do we get in exchange for the poisonous products the Chinese are flooding the west with? Lost manufacturing jobs.Factories that are closed and dismantled permanently,and sick kids who did little more than play with cheap deadly toys that were a scant few years before produced safely somewhere in North America.
    Let's save factory jobs! Don't let the Chinese do them! We should provide incentives for our kids not to study hard in high school and go to college because there's always a factory job waiting for them. You should want a job where you get the opportunity to stand on your feet all day. The job hones your skills at paying attention; otherwise, your fingers might get ripped off.

    Vote no thanks to high paying service jobs and yes to more factory jobs!

    If you're worried about the market's ability to react to substandard supply chains, check out this post: http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/pol...tml#post454417.
    "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

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    Egads!? You can't mean those min wage shoe shining, Walmart greeter service/retail jobs do you? I would much rather spend my life making quality things that I can show people what I do for a living and how I can make other people's lives better.
    Seriously Shek, The feeling of living in a home that you built, driving a car that you built, or watching a tv that you built,ect, brings unbelievable satisfaction that service workers will never know.

    One of our greatest strengths was the ability to retool our factories in a matter of weeks to producing war materials should the need arise. The labor pool of welders, machinists etc was already trained, skilled and ready to go. Now we have to build the factories before much can be done as many have closed down or are in disrepair. We would be hard pressed to keep up with the demands of basics such as steel. I have already had the displeasure of having a few of my jobs delayed while we wait for the steel to arrive and this is not even wartime.

    I was involved in toys for underprivileged kids last year (Christmas) I can assure you that the tainted toys fiasco was worse than the WSJ stated. Many kids did with out toys at all as replacements were not to be had in time. Some of the toys had to be "taken back" after the kids received them. Shek, have you ever had to separate a kid from the one present he may have had all year and telling the kid it was for is own good.? Buying for my own kids was much more of a pain as it should have been and i am still inspecting things the in-laws gave my children.
    In the states we have known for decades that lead paint ESPECIALLY ON A KIDS TOY is a very bad idea. Why do the Chinese not know this? How could they not know this? We also know better than to poison our food supply yet again the chinese seam to be ignorant or just do not care about the safety of the food supply. People may seam to think the Chinese route is the way to money, but I see it as a way to put my families' health at risk and that is in no way acceptable to me. A few problems here and there is one thing, but we have had problems with the Chinese pipeline on a regular basis and we both know there are other things that have slipped through that are yet to be found.

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    Ironically, the develped countries benefit greatly by consuming huge amount of Chinese cheap goods. The margins are mainly gained by their own importers who trade with Chinese factories. They get their inflation controlled at low level, they have a much cleaner air and land by moving those heavily polluting plants to China, they get their goods more affordable to all walks of the society. AND, they blame China for all the cost of their huge profit earned from China is the job opportunities in manufacture sect are reduced. They do so without a thought that ten more times of job opportunities in China are demolished because of the flooding of goods from developed counties. The free market is advocated by the developed countries, but when tides turn agaisnt themselvies, they forget it.

    And China is always the favourite scapegoat being critised by politicians. It is much safer to acuse of a country which miles away and wont counterattack in anyway than to touch the core of the problem itself. A cheap shot disturbing innocent people's emotion toward a stranger country. In fact, I m very skeptical that problems like such could be addressed coz the big winners of the trade with China have their agent at congress and administration. They wont do anything to detriment their own interest. SO, the topic relating to China will be always seen but never solved. That democracy sucks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonehead View Post
    Egads!? You can't mean those min wage shoe shining, Walmart greeter service/retail jobs do you?
    But these aren't the average service jobs that are being created. The fact that median wages (pay & benefits) are increases proves that this is a mischaracterization. Also, the typical greeter at the Walmarts I've been to are older folks working a retirement job. I'd be willing to bet that they are looking for something to do and not all that concerned about pay. Read this post for a potential analogy to this situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by bonehead
    I would much rather spend my life making quality things that I can show people what I do for a living and how I can make other people's lives better.
    Does the software engineer (not a programmer, since we outsource that with the result of creating more higher paying software engineering jobs) not have something to show people and how he/she makes other people's lives better? Does the consultant assisting small businesses formulate plans for growth not have something to show people?

    Quote Originally Posted by bonehead
    Seriously Shek, The feeling of living in a home that you built, driving a car that you built, or watching a tv that you built,ect, brings unbelievable satisfaction that service workers will never know.
    See the above. I don't doubt that there's a good feeling. Of course, I don't forsee a future where homes are built in China and shipped to the USA. Also, you'd be hard pressed to find a lot of TVs built in the USA these days, and I'm happy that I was able to only spend $750 on a 42" Sharp LCD TV, something that wouldn't have been possible if it had been built in the USA.

    Quote Originally Posted by bonehead
    One of our greatest strengths was the ability to retool our factories in a matter of weeks to producing war materials should the need arise. The labor pool of welders, machinists etc was already trained, skilled and ready to go. Now we have to build the factories before much can be done as many have closed down or are in disrepair.
    We can still do this with an even increased manufacturing capability. American factories that still exist dwarf production capabilities of decades prior. Anyways, the technology required to build defense products is much different than years past, and those firms that exist are capable of meeting these needs, especially compared to a world where we tried to keep dying factories that couldn't even keep pace with competition in business.

    Quote Originally Posted by bonehead
    We would be hard pressed to keep up with the demands of basics such as steel. I have already had the displeasure of having a few of my jobs delayed while we wait for the steel to arrive and this is not even wartime.
    A 2002 Department of Commerce study found otherwise. Besides, we don't use average steel that much anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by bonehead
    I was involved in toys for underprivileged kids last year (Christmas) I can assure you that the tainted toys fiasco was worse than the WSJ stated. Many kids did with out toys at all as replacements were not to be had in time. Some of the toys had to be "taken back" after the kids received them. Shek, have you ever had to separate a kid from the one present he may have had all year and telling the kid it was for is own good.? Buying for my own kids was much more of a pain as it should have been and i am still inspecting things the in-laws gave my children.
    In the states we have known for decades that lead paint ESPECIALLY ON A KIDS TOY is a very bad idea. Why do the Chinese not know this? How could they not know this? We also know better than to poison our food supply yet again the chinese seam to be ignorant or just do not care about the safety of the food supply. People may seam to think the Chinese route is the way to money, but I see it as a way to put my families' health at risk and that is in no way acceptable to me. A few problems here and there is one thing, but we have had problems with the Chinese pipeline on a regular basis and we both know there are other things that have slipped through that are yet to be found.
    We should stop importing beef from the Democratic Republic of Kalifornia, afterall, we know better than to poison our own food supply.
    "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangyiying View Post
    They get their inflation controlled at low level, they have a much cleaner air and land by moving those heavily polluting plants to China
    Not necessarily true. The industries that create some of the most pollution (e.g. chemical production) are found in the US and other developed nations. Globalization has led to increased production in the US/the West of chemicals and other goods, while low-intensity pollution industries like textiles, shoes, etc. have been offshored to SE Asia and China.
    "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

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    Don't worry about the athletes, these guys are the best athletes in the world so they're rather healthy. I'm definitely not as fit as them and I've been to these polluted areas, so these guys should have no problem.
    Those who can't change become extinct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shek View Post
    But these aren't the average service jobs that are being created. The fact that median wages (pay & benefits) are increases proves that this is a mischaracterization. Also, the typical greeter at the Walmarts I've been to are older folks working a retirement job. I'd be willing to bet that they are looking for something to do and not all that concerned about pay. Read this post for a potential analogy to this situation.



    Does the software engineer (not a programmer, since we outsource that with the result of creating more higher paying software engineering jobs) not have something to show people and how he/she makes other people's lives better? Does the consultant assisting small businesses formulate plans for growth not have something to show people?



    See the above. I don't doubt that there's a good feeling. Of course, I don't forsee a future where homes are built in China and shipped to the USA. Also, you'd be hard pressed to find a lot of TVs built in the USA these days, and I'm happy that I was able to only spend $750 on a 42" Sharp LCD TV, something that wouldn't have been possible if it had been built in the USA.



    We can still do this with an even increased manufacturing capability. American factories that still exist dwarf production capabilities of decades prior. Anyways, the technology required to build defense products is much different than years past, and those firms that exist are capable of meeting these needs, especially compared to a world where we tried to keep dying factories that couldn't even keep pace with competition in business.



    A 2002 Department of Commerce study found otherwise. Besides, we don't use average steel that much anymore.



    We should stop importing beef from the Democratic Republic of Kalifornia, afterall, we know better than to poison our own food supply.
    Finally. Something we agree on. The republic of California is another country. I have been boycotting food from there for years.

    2) The delays on my jobs were later than the study. 2004-2006. Until the building goes up I cant install the duct in it. There is a lot of steel in construction.
    3) My aunt inherited my grandparents magnavox circa 1960's TV. Still has a good screen. The Tv was spendy at first but longevity has its rewards. We will see if ANY of the newer TVs will last 10 years before going **** up.

    4) software engineers can also be outsourced at the drop of a hat, so can business consultants. Secondly, not everyone has the ability/money to attain the education to be one. There is not enough room in colleges if everyone had the ability to go that route. Additionally, there is no shame in working with your hands for a living. It was the combination of muscle and brain power that made this country strong.

    5) The sector you speak of is not universal. There are many depressed areas were the factories /mills shut down and the high paying jobs are somewhere else. Even if these jobs did exist locally, few of the locals would ever qualify.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonehead View Post
    Finally. Something we agree on. The republic of California is another country. I have been boycotting food from there for years.

    2) The delays on my jobs were later than the study. 2004-2006. Until the building goes up I cant install the duct in it. There is a lot of steel in construction.
    3) My aunt inherited my grandparents magnavox circa 1960's TV. Still has a good screen. The Tv was spendy at first but longevity has its rewards. We will see if ANY of the newer TVs will last 10 years before going **** up.

    4) software engineers can also be outsourced at the drop of a hat, so can business consultants. Secondly, not everyone has the ability/money to attain the education to be one. There is not enough room in colleges if everyone had the ability to go that route. Additionally, there is no shame in working with your hands for a living. It was the combination of muscle and brain power that made this country strong.

    5) The sector you speak of is not universal. There are many depressed areas were the factories /mills shut down and the high paying jobs are somewhere else. Even if these jobs did exist locally, few of the locals would ever qualify.
    Bonehead,

    1. Creating jobs for blacksmiths. There is no shame in working with one's hands for a living. However, to fawn over lost factory jobs that have been replaced by higher paying jobs that tend to be in the service sector is dangerous. With this type of thinking, we should argue that we want to ban cars so that horse groomers and blacksmiths can be the high income occupations they were when we had a horse-driven economy.

    2. What is seen and unseen. Another thing to think about when we look at the shifts in the sectoral economics is that which is unseen. When a factory shuts down because it is not competitive, it unleashes the creativity of the youth that are no longer destined to find a company job in the company town. Instead, these youth can now strike out on their own and find their own destiny. The death of a factory job can be the birth of another doctor, or an architect, or custom chopper builder, etc., etc. However, discussion of the shut down factory tends to be myopic, ignoring the benefits to consumers and the new opportunities opened up to the next generation. For example, Motorola no longer makes TVs, but was that bad for the American economy?

    3. Steel. Steel shortages that you see reflect a non-prioritized, market based allocation. If there were a national defense emergency, then there would be a national security need based allocation, and given the following from my earlier link,

    The investigation revealed that the United States produces approximately three times the maximum amounts of iron ore and semi-finished steel that might be required for national security purposes. The report also finds, based on the analysis of the Department of Defense, that national defense needs for iron ore and semi-finished steel have declined in recent years and are likely to remain flat for at least the next five years.
    the US is in no danger. Anyways, if there were less slack, then the most efficient economic solution would be to create a stockpile, i.e., a national reserve a la the strategic petroleum reserve.

    4. Job locations. This is a bit of a red herring. Why did "factory" towns grow? Because people moved to where the best opportunities were at the time. As opportunities changed, people moved away from dying or dead opportunities and where new ones existed. There is nothing different today, and so to bemoan that opportunities change locations is more akin to crying over spilt milk.

    Here is a great article that looks at both sides of the coin when an industry dies when it is no longer competitive. There are losers, but there are winners, and the article doesn't even explore what is unseen, which are even more winners. I'm not against some forms of transition assistance, but I am against trade protectionism that would impose an implicit tax on me.

    5. TVs. My 42" LCD HDTV costs $107 in 1960 dollars. At the time, the cheapest 21" color TV that could receive both UHF and VHF was $191. If you wanted a remote control to go with that, then you need to shell out $380 (prices based on 1960 Sears catalog). The LCD is rated at a lamp life of 60K hours (based on continuous use), which is nearly 7 years if it is never turned off. I doubt that many people watch TV 24/7, so we're really looking at decades of use. In other words, the actual lifespan will exceed the technology half-life of its usefulness.

    6. The limitations of outsourcing. Outsourcing, and specifically, offshoring, continues to be the big bogeyman. Sure, software engineers can be outsourced, but there are diminishing marginal returns to levels of outsourcing that make this unlikely.

    You can read the story of Boeing's Dreamliner to see the limitations of outsourcing and why the topic is more a political scare tactic over American jobs than one grounded in reality. You can also try a more intuitive approach in this article, "Bosses Don't Wear Bunny Slippers: If Markets Are So Great, Why Are There Firms?".

    The bottomline is that a firm still needs to make sure that its core competency isn't outsourced, and for software firms, you need someone internal to the company determining the software modules and how to fit them together to make a workable product. If you start outsourcing more than just the programming of the modules, then you start ramping up your coordination costs to the point that they are greater than the benefit of reduced costs. Besides, there's also the technical detail that as Indian software programmers have seen higher demand (increasing their wages) and American software programmers have seen lower demand (decreasing their wages), the wages paid are equalizing. This factor price equalization has resulted in plans for WiPro to insource some software programmer to the United States.

    7. DRK. My DRK example was tongue-in-cheek, albeit about a serious topic. The market will punish China in general over the failure of a few specific firms outside the direct supply chain, just as the California meat packing company will be sent packing. Increased safety inspections will reduce their profit margins or make them uncompetitive compared to other countries, and domestic firms who are the end product suppliers will make sure that they take action to repair their damaged reputations. We should react, but not in ways that harms ourselves. Protectionism (i.e., trade barriers against China) is essentially a self-induced trade embargo/blockade (if you're curious how greater self-sufficiency impacts an economy, see Cuba and/or North Korea as the poster children of this).
    "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

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