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  • The illusion of the IDf dependence on America.

    Hello, im new to the forum.
    I want to put on a subject about something that i have noticed lately, which is the illusion of many people (many of them Americans) about the dependence of the Israeli army on the USA, mentions weapons supplying and aid money.
    I don't know how many of them really know the IDF and about its equipment...
    The israeli army produce its own weapons so as many types of missiles, small arms(assault rifles), combat aircrafts like the 'kfir', 'Nesher' and the 'Lavi' that on its days was better than the F16, (the Chinese J10 based on the lavi) and mainly the high quality Merkava tank. the other equipment that is not israeli made had purchased and improved like the F16I and choppers.
    not mentioned that the israeli intelligences are good enough by their own (mossad etc...)
    about the aid money... i think that if USA prevents israel make its own money(weapons trade) like the Phalcon deal with the chinese that stopped, they should pay instead.

    well, so what do you think? do you think that the Israeli army is highly dependent on USA.
    Last edited by MK_4; 02 Feb 08,, 01:39.

  • #2
    That is really a loaded question. Just let me say that in Israels position I would want to have freinds.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by MK_4 View Post
      I don't know how many of them really know the IDF and about its equipment...
      Just cut the $3billion the US annually spends on Israel and see just how far the IDF can go in replacing that money.

      Originally posted by MK_4 View Post
      i think that if USA prevents israel make its own money(weapons trade) like the Phalcon deal with the chinese that stopped, they should pay instead.
      You're contradicting yourself. So American money is more important than the Chinese PHALCON deal.

      Comment


      • #4
        Hello, im new to the forum.
        I want to put on a subject about something that i have noticed lately, which is the illusion of many people (many of them Americans) about the dependence of the Israeli army on the USA, mentions weapons supplying and aid money.
        I don't know how many of them really know the IDF and about its equipment...
        The israeli army produce its own weapons so as many types of missiles, small arms(assault rifles), combat aircrafts like the 'kfir', 'Nesher' and the 'Lavi' that on its days was better than the F16, (the Chinese J10 based on the lavi) and mainly the high quality Merkava tank. the other equipment that is not israeli made had purchased and improved like the F16I and choppers.
        not mentioned that the israeli intelligences are good enough by their own (mossad etc...)
        about the aid money... i think that if USA prevents israel make its own money(weapons trade) like the Phalcon deal with the chinese that stopped, they should pay instead.
        Sort of nonsensical nationalistic ranting I guess .

        The Lavi was killed once America stopped paying for it, yes American taxpayers, American citizens were footing the bill for it. Once money from American tax payers stopped funding the project, it died. Then American tax money was used to buy other planes.

        The F-16I is simply an F-16C/D B-52+.

        If they didn't have the American aid money their wouldn't be the hundreds of F-16s and the like. Simple as that.

        And trying to sell the Phalcon/Haroy to China, was backstabbing as simple as that. So no way in ****ing hell should America pay a red cent to stop that. Cutting off aid if they sell anything else is a far better option.

        One can go on and on with TOWs, M-72s, M-47 Dragons, M-113s, M-60s, M-48s, M-16s, M-4s, CAR-15s, F-15s, AH-64s, AH-1s, Bell-212s, UH-60s, E-2s, CH-53s, M-2HBs, M-203s, M-109s, M-107s, M-110s, C-130s - I'm too tired to list all the crap we have given away at tax payer expense.

        It is a goddamn long list. So yes they are dependent on the American taxpayer to foot the bill for the IDF. Hell we are about to give away the JSF in the next decade - to a nation which sells our secrets to the Reds.
        To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

        Comment


        • #5
          Hello troung

          The F-16I is simply an F-16C/D B-52+
          no, its better.

          And trying to sell the Phalcon/Haroy to China, was backstabbing as simple as that
          you are not disturbs selling new weapons to saudia and egypt although thats against israel interests.

          the Phalcon deal with India supplied Israel more than billion dollar, and the deal with the Chinese probably could give the same or more. there was a F16 improvements deal with Venezuela that Israel been asked from USA to stop.
          all those deals could supply the same money as America supply, so USA subsidizing weapons instead.
          But the relations with America are more important, as its important for America to have a strong ally in the middle east.

          The Lavi died because USA didn't want Israel to have its own produce aircraft(and the ability to sell it).

          Comment


          • #6
            Its no Illusion. Israel is like naughty teenager to America. Mom might scold every now and then but in the end she gives him his allowance.

            http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/17/wo.../17israel.html
            For Gallifrey! For Victory! For the end of time itself!!

            Comment


            • #7
              no, its better.
              It is practically the same model Greece flies. Same airframe, same radar, same BVR missiles, same CFTs; a couple of different sub systems.

              there was a F16 improvements deal with Venezuela that Israel been asked from USA to stop.
              all those deals could supply the same money as America supply, so USA subsidizing weapons instead.
              Those deals would never reach the 3 billion a year, every year. Much less the tech transfers and cascaded down weapons. Had American tax payers never become liable for funding the IDF they wouldn't have anywhere near the amount of equipment they have.

              Plus Venezuela is another ****ing enemy....

              But the relations with America are more important, as its important for America to have a strong ally in the middle east.
              **** on a boar. And that doesn't make sense in light with your saying arms sales to Egypt and Saudi Arabia are against Israel's interest, despite that making them stronger allies.

              you are not disturbs selling new weapons to saudia and egypt although thats against israel interests.
              At least the Saudis can pay. Plus you above mentioned the need for strong allies.

              The Lavi died because USA didn't want Israel to have its own produce aircraft(and the ability to sell it).
              We stopped funding it. Israel could have kept it going, they had no money and killed it on their own.

              The United States and the LAVI
              The United States and the LAVI

              Lt Col James P. DeLoughry, USAF
              Airpower Journal Vol. IV, No. 3, (Fall 1990): 34-44
              By 1983 the estimated research and development (R&D) costs for the Lavi had increased to approximately $1.5 billion, and the cost per aircraft had jumped to $15.5 million.15 At this time, the US began a unique involvement with the Lavi program. Before the project was terminated, the US would set far-reaching precedents in the areas of FMS and technology transfer and would finance over 90 percent of the Lavi's development costs. In 1987, because of the massive outlay of US money on the Lavi, both the GAO and the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) were commissioned to study the program. GAO estimated the cost per aircraft at $17.8 million and OMB at $22.1 million.16

              At the time the Lavi program was terminated, US contractors were building approximately 40 percent of the aircraft's systems. According to Defense Minister Rabin, 730 US firms were either subcontractors or vendors on the program.28 The issue of technology transfer was a prime point of contention, and Israel initially found itself at odds with the US State Department and Department of Defense.29 To resolve this roadblock, Israel played on the personal relationship between Israeli minister of defense Arens and US secretary of state George P. Shultz.
              Having been repeatedly blocked by the Pentagon in their quest to use FMS credits in Israel for the Lavi, Israeli officials in the fall of 1983 took their case directly to Congress. According to a Washington Post study of the Lavi, Rep Charles Wilson of Texas, a friend of Moshe Arens and a key member of the subcommittee responsible for appropriating foreign aid, advocated congressional funding of the Lavi.41 The chronology of events included a meeting between Representative Wilson, an Israeli business lobbyist, and a staff member of the Senate Appropriations Subcommittee controlling foreign aid. Reportedly, this meeting produced a plan for an amendment allowing a major exception to US policy so that FMS could be spent in Israel for the Lavi.42 Congressman Wilson acknowledged that he asked the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), the influential pro-Israel lobbying group in Washington, to draft the language for the amendments.43 AIPAC has repeatedly played a major role in shaping US policy regarding Israel and the Arab world. The extent of AIPAC's influence is such that it has on at least two occasions been directly involved in negotiations with the US State Department concerning foreign policy issues: the proposed sale of Stinger antiaircraft missiles to Jordan and the location of the US Embassy in Israel.44 The funding request, an amendment to the fiscal year 1984 Continuing Budget Resolution, asked for $150 million more than IAI required and committed US financing to the Lavi.45 Further, the amendment allowed Israel to spend $300 million of US FMS funds for the Lavi in the United States and $250 million in Israel.46

              The amendment was introduced in November 1983, just prior to the Christmas recess,47 and involved lobbyists from all quarters. AIPAC mounted a major effort to get the legislation passed, sending written memoranda to every member of the House and Senate and calling upon key members of the appropriate committees.48 Pro-Arab lobbies worked the other side of the issue, as did representatives from US aerospace firms such as Northrop Corporation and General Electric, which objected to US funds being used to finance all aircraft that might compete with their own.49

              However, four days after its introduction in the House (and with no committee hearings and little debate), the Lavi package was approved.50 According to Representative Wilson, the only controversary concerning the Lavi had to do with which congreeman would get credit for the amendment when it passed.51

              Nevertheless, DOD and the State Department still vigorously opposed the Lavi, especially the related FMS issue. In fact, in early 1984 DOD was able to delay the release of funds by interpreting the amendment to mean that Israel's $250 million were for production rather than R&D.52 Again, heavy lobbying succeeded in affirming that the funding was indeed to be used for R&D.53 Thus, Israel cleared the final hurdle, opening the way for further funding with FMS monies (see table).

              By 1987 rising costs, as evidenced by the GAO and OMB estimates, had put the Lavi program in serious trouble in Israel and the United States. Consequently, the US raised the procurement amount in Israel for fiscal year 1988 to $400 million to pay Lavi cancellation costs and to substitute the purchase of 75 to 100 F-16Cs over the next three to four years (see table). 54 Over the course of the Lavi project, the US government invested over $2 billion of taxpayers' money, established foreign policy precedents, and transferred sensitive technology. Feelings are still raw in many quarters of the US government over the way the Lavi issue was handled, and many people question whether the program was in the best interests of the United States.
              Last edited by troung; 02 Feb 08,, 04:48.
              To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

              Comment


              • #8
                It is the ISRAELIS who have delusions of grandeur. They believe themselves to the best military force on earth when in truth, they chickened out against the USSR and it became necessary for true WWIII armies to come to their rescue. Both Troung and I have provided more than enough examples where the Israelis came up short, including the 73 War where they backed down (and real fast) against the Soviet threat of intervention. It took the Americans, and by extension NATO, who went on DEFCON 3 (and while NATO did not go on similar alert, we nevertheless up the ante to force the Soviets down).

                None of this is to say that Israeli soldiers would chicken out against a Soviet Army Group BUT it does say that the Israeli cabinet has no confidence against a single Soviet Army Group wheras NATO was facing 6 Soviet Army Groups.

                I respect the Israelis for what they are (that of a competent 1st world army) but I will not respect the IDF to be superior to us in what they clearly are not - a WWIII army and we were a WWIII army.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by MK_4 View Post
                  Hello troung


                  no, its better.


                  you are not disturbs selling new weapons to saudia and egypt although thats against israel interests.

                  the Phalcon deal with India supplied Israel more than billion dollar, and the deal with the Chinese probably could give the same or more. there was a F16 improvements deal with Venezuela that Israel been asked from USA to stop.
                  all those deals could supply the same money as America supply, so USA subsidizing weapons instead.
                  But the relations with America are more important, as its important for America to have a strong ally in the middle east.

                  The Lavi died because USA didn't want Israel to have its own produce aircraft(and the ability to sell it).
                  Ok so suppose Israel did do the deal with India and China. Next time there is a war and bunker busters are starting to run out, who you gonna call? Ghostbusters? The Chinese or the Indians?

                  I'm not really sure what your problem is. American-Israeli cooperation is a good thing, most Israelis that I know are not too quick to give that away, I'm not sure why you are so incessant on it. Who is Israel's top trading partner? Hmm..

                  You are embarassing every single Israeli supporter on this forum. Please, stop it.
                  Last edited by Stan187; 02 Feb 08,, 08:07.
                  In Iran people belive pepsi stands for pay each penny save israel. -urmomma158
                  The Russian Navy is still a threat, but only to those unlucky enough to be Russian sailors.-highsea

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Not to mention that we have no idea who the hell you are, because you've yet to actually introduce yourself. But you sound like a little kid.
                    In Iran people belive pepsi stands for pay each penny save israel. -urmomma158
                    The Russian Navy is still a threat, but only to those unlucky enough to be Russian sailors.-highsea

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      They believe themselves to the best military force on earth
                      Did you hear me saying that?
                      i don't even considered the IDF as one of the 5st strongest armies...

                      you all missing the main point- the illusion that israel won't be exist without the USA, which is NOT true. i know israel would find the way to arrange oneself without american support.

                      Not to mention that we have no idea who the hell you are, because you've yet to actually introduce yourself
                      well, im 19.5. i was a combat soldier in the israeli artillery force, and now im a programmer(in the army).

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by MK_4 View Post
                        Did you hear me saying that?
                        i don't even considered the IDF as one of the 5st strongest armies...

                        you all missing the main point- the illusion that israel won't be exist without the USA, which is NOT true. i know israel would find the way to arrange oneself without american support.
                        And what would happened to Israel if the US did not goto DEFCON 3 during the 73 War?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          you all missing the main point- the illusion that israel won't be exist without the USA, which is NOT true. i know israel would find the way to arrange oneself without american support.
                          The IDF would be a shell without money from the American taxpayer. The American taxpayer has supplied artillery, tanks, APCs, fighters, attack helicopters, anti armor missiles, trucks, money for Israeli projects, air to air missiles, surface to air missiles - hell the occupation would more then likely be too much without our aid if one looks at the cost over 20 years. Much less that Israel ran out of American tax payer supplied bombs, and we thus had to send more - at American taxpayer expense during Lebanon.

                          Without money taken from the American taxpayer, within a few years most of their planes would be grounded, for lack of money. And sure as hell no F-16C/D B-52+s much less JSF would have been thought about. The list goes on.

                          FYI the "Nesher" was actually "merely" a Mirage 5, supplied in kits from France and delivered by the USAF - at American taxpayer expense.
                          To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by MK_4 View Post
                            Hello, im new to the forum.
                            I want to put on a subject about something that i have noticed lately, which is the illusion of many people (many of them Americans) about the dependence of the Israeli army on the USA, mentions weapons supplying and aid money.
                            I don't know how many of them really know the IDF and about its equipment...
                            The israeli army produce its own weapons so as many types of missiles, small arms(assault rifles), combat aircrafts like the 'kfir', 'Nesher' and the 'Lavi' that on its days was better than the F16, (the Chinese J10 based on the lavi) and mainly the high quality Merkava tank. the other equipment that is not israeli made had purchased and improved like the F16I and choppers.
                            not mentioned that the israeli intelligences are good enough by their own (mossad etc...)
                            about the aid money... i think that if USA prevents israel make its own money(weapons trade) like the Phalcon deal with the chinese that stopped, they should pay instead.

                            well, so what do you think? do you think that the Israeli army is highly dependent on USA.
                            Ok, first, they used American technology as the basis for the vast majority of what they have now... that is why we don't want them trading it to China (and we have that right). Almost all of Israel's military technology originates with donations from the United States (the specific designs are usually Israeli)... and Israel is the single largest recipient of American foreign aid (and we give a lot). If it weren't for the powerful Israeli lobby here in the states we would have punished them more for it.

                            I personally am against us considering Israel trustworthy enough for any further technology transfers... ever. They showed that they couldn't be trusted to keep that secret, and so they lost the privilege. If the Israeli response is to sell more, then we cut them off altogether (stop foreign aid, all technology transfers, defending them in the UN, ect). It would go a long ways towards building relationships with Muslim nations, who quite frankly are of more use to us than Israel because they have oil. It isn't like we would be losing a dependable ally anyways.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by lwarmonger View Post
                              It isn't like we would be losing a dependable ally anyways.
                              I'd say that sentiment is pretty extreme.
                              In Iran people belive pepsi stands for pay each penny save israel. -urmomma158
                              The Russian Navy is still a threat, but only to those unlucky enough to be Russian sailors.-highsea

                              Comment

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