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The illusion of the IDf dependence on America.

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  • #46
    Originally posted by lwarmonger View Post
    And Europe? Their culture has had a very similar influence on much of the Middle East (in addition to colonialism), and they haven't attracted the hostility that we have. What is the difference?
    The difference is that Europe is becoming more and more populated by Muslims by the minute, pretty soon, hating Europe is going to be hating other Muslims.

    Not to mention that France used to be Israel's big sponsor right up until '67, and they weren't being hated on at the time as the US was after we took over as Israel's main backer.
    In Iran people belive pepsi stands for pay each penny save israel. -urmomma158
    The Russian Navy is still a threat, but only to those unlucky enough to be Russian sailors.-highsea

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Stan187 View Post
      The difference is that Europe is becoming more and more populated by Muslims by the minute, pretty soon, hating Europe is going to be hating other Muslims.
      That argument is pretty weak... Muslims are discriminated against, and are nowhere near competing numbers yet.

      Not to mention that France used to be Israel's big sponsor right up until '67, and they weren't being hated on at the time as the US was after we took over as Israel's main backer.
      How much money was France giving Israel? How much support in the UN? I know the French sold some advanced weaponry to Israel... but so have many nations. South Africa and Israel worked together to acquire nuclear weapons... that doesn't mean that South Africa counts as a backer of Israel.

      The French never gave the Israeli's anywhere near the support that we have... ever. Aside from the abortive 1956 war (and even then), to describe the Franco-Israeli relationship as close would not be accurate.

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      • #48
        People really start flipping out when their children start singing Eminem and Britney Spears, even more so when they imitate Britney's dance moves and clothing styles. Detonate themselves over Coke? Sure not. But detonate themselves over what they see as an invading culture supplanting their cultural values and encouraging in the moral decay of their young? Don't underestimate it for even an instant.
        People also flip out when watching bombs falling on their fellow Muslims/Arabs while one nation breaks it neck to supply more because they start running out. Or when watching footage of bulldozers knocking over houses. And of course watching elected officials, from the nation taking money for its taxpayers, cheering it on. The list goes on.

        I think watching Israel bomb Lebanon back to the 1980s pissed off more people across the Arab world then Eminem. And the American taxpayer funded that much of that wonderful show.

        Now Celine Dion...
        Last edited by troung; 04 Feb 08,, 08:07. Reason: removing Israel-South African friendship
        To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

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        • #49
          Originally posted by troung View Post
          People also flip out when watching bombs falling on their fellow Muslims/Arabs while one nation breaks it neck to supply more because they start running out. Or when watching footage of bulldozers knocking over houses. And of course watching elected officials, from the nation taking money for its taxpayers, cheering it on. The list goes on.

          I think watching Israel bomb Lebanon back to the 1980s pissed off more people across the Arab world then Eminem. And the American taxpayer funded that much of that wonderful show.

          Now Celine Dion...
          If one is counting the wrongs, I'd say the honors are evenly divided... my objection is based on an evaluation of America's interests.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by troung View Post
            People also flip out when watching bombs falling on their fellow Muslims/Arabs while one nation breaks it neck to supply more because they start running out. Or when watching footage of bulldozers knocking over houses. And of course watching elected officials, from the nation taking money for its taxpayers, cheering it on. The list goes on.
            Aww, I bet they shed a tear for blown up Israeli civilians too, and urged their Arab/Muslim bretheren to not attack civilians intentionally. Dream on!
            In Iran people belive pepsi stands for pay each penny save israel. -urmomma158
            The Russian Navy is still a threat, but only to those unlucky enough to be Russian sailors.-highsea

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by lwarmonger View Post
              That argument is pretty weak... Muslims are discriminated against, and are nowhere near competing numbers yet.



              How much money was France giving Israel? How much support in the UN? I know the French sold some advanced weaponry to Israel... but so have many nations. South Africa and Israel worked together to acquire nuclear weapons... that doesn't mean that South Africa counts as a backer of Israel.

              The French never gave the Israeli's anywhere near the support that we have... ever. Aside from the abortive 1956 war (and even then), to describe the Franco-Israeli relationship as close would not be accurate.
              The Israeli-French alliance was quite strong actually. If you'd like I can recommend a book or two to read on that. Advanced weaponry was sold by France at a time that no one else was willing. South Africa doesn't count, they were the main sponsor of Israel, France was for a time. Support in the UN matters? Since when?

              I actually will have to look back at how much money they were giving and how that converts into today's dollars, that's an interesting question.
              In Iran people belive pepsi stands for pay each penny save israel. -urmomma158
              The Russian Navy is still a threat, but only to those unlucky enough to be Russian sailors.-highsea

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Stan187 View Post
                Interesting, I wonder if that is in the process of changing.
                According to friends on active duty, NO.

                Israel is in a unique position that it is the only place in the Med that has training areas large enough for a MEU to off load all its equipment and have maneuver space. You can fire tanks, arty and things like TOW missiles without having to worry about rounds skipping out of the impact area and hitting a house.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by lwarmonger View Post
                  And Europe? Their culture has had a very similar influence on much of the Middle East (in addition to colonialism), and they haven't attracted the hostility that we have. What is the difference?
                  A good topic for another thread, but let me just share one observation: European culture intrudes and influences a completely different class of Moslems than American culture. Broadly, we can say that the ruling elites will never let the mobs attack their Louis Vitton boutiques... but will gladly turn a blind eye to a couple of McDonalds' being torn down in name of protecting the culture. Of course there are a coupe of anomalies where the paradigm is challenged - like soccer and military power - but it generally holds true. Also don't forget that many of the elites are themselves in their positions as a result of colonialism; they are either beholden to its impact as collaborators and dare not dig it up, or still scared sh!tless about the invisible hand of the European colonizers. It is not that long, for example, when mention of "DGSE" woke many a leader shaking and sweating. Old fears die hard.

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                  • #54
                    If one is counting the wrongs, I'd say the honors are evenly divided... my objection is based on an evaluation of America's interests.
                    Same here, just saying our arming up one side and giving them diplomatic cover, hasn't gotten us much in return for the massive investment. Makes us look bad in the region and gives us a "client" state useful for nothing.

                    Aww, I bet they shed a tear for blown up Israeli civilians too, and urged their Arab/Muslim bretheren to not attack civilians intentionally. Dream on!
                    Doesn't matter at all.
                    To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
                      According to friends on active duty, NO.

                      Israel is in a unique position that it is the only place in the Med that has training areas large enough for a MEU to off load all its equipment and have maneuver space. You can fire tanks, arty and things like TOW missiles without having to worry about rounds skipping out of the impact area and hitting a house.
                      Did you do your training in the southern desert, the Negev?
                      In Iran people belive pepsi stands for pay each penny save israel. -urmomma158
                      The Russian Navy is still a threat, but only to those unlucky enough to be Russian sailors.-highsea

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by troung View Post
                        Doesn't matter at all.
                        An unfortunate opinion.
                        In Iran people belive pepsi stands for pay each penny save israel. -urmomma158
                        The Russian Navy is still a threat, but only to those unlucky enough to be Russian sailors.-highsea

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Stan187 View Post
                          The Israeli-French alliance was quite strong actually. If you'd like I can recommend a book or two to read on that. Advanced weaponry was sold by France at a time that no one else was willing. South Africa doesn't count, they were the main sponsor of Israel, France was for a time. Support in the UN matters? Since when?
                          Actually I would be interesting in reading up on that, so if you have some books in mind that would be great... however of one thing I am quite sure. France never gave the open-ended massive support to Israel that we have (that kind of charity would be unbecoming of a Frenchman!).

                          And South Africa was in a nuclear partnership with Israel.

                          I was saying that France wasn't supporting Israel in the UN... we are. The United States shoots down proposals and resolutions on a regular basis on the grounds that they are too hostile to Israel and not evenhanded.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Stan187 View Post
                            Did you do your training in the southern desert, the Negev?
                            Yes.

                            And a lot of libo in Haifi:) Goldstar beer mmmmmmm

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
                              According to friends on active duty, NO.

                              Israel is in a unique position that it is the only place in the Med that has training areas large enough for a MEU to off load all its equipment and have maneuver space. You can fire tanks, arty and things like TOW missiles without having to worry about rounds skipping out of the impact area and hitting a house.
                              Must be the East Coast MEU's hitting Israel. During the mid-90's the West Coast MEU's were going to Jordan and Kuwait (Udari range...) Libo in Aqaba, Jordan was NOT as nice as Haifa, although we did get to stare at the Haifa beaches and dream.

                              After having spent a few months in the region training and pulling gator squares, I figured that I had been there, done that, and that I never needed to go back again....

                              Silly me. Turn the clock forward a few years and I got to do two more tours in CENTCOM, one a guided tour of Iraq...

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
                                Yes.

                                And a lot of libo in Haifi:) Goldstar beer mmmmmmm
                                Hahahaha, Goldstar! The first time I read the name in Hebrew (I was really bad at reading it a couple of years ago), I kinda sounded out the different ways it could possibly sound and was like... "Gold..star?". Didn't sound very Hebrew, even though I'm pretty sure it's only made there.

                                Haifa is nice, too. That skyscraper building that looks like a football really amuses all of us Americans, at least it did when me and my friends saw it.
                                In Iran people belive pepsi stands for pay each penny save israel. -urmomma158
                                The Russian Navy is still a threat, but only to those unlucky enough to be Russian sailors.-highsea

                                Comment

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