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Is the US on the decline?

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  • Is the US on the decline?

    Well, I've been wondering this for awhile. The US seems to be on the decline as world superpower. Certainly, we still have the strongest military and one if not the strongest economies, but I can't help but think that the US isn't up to standards as we it once was. Here are a few of my points. If they are completely ridiculous, though I think some hold water, please point that out. I haven't exactly done a full research point on this.

    Economically, though we are still incredibly powerful, the US is leaning towards a reliance on foreign countries on many commodities. Most notably, oil. In a hypothetical, unlikely situation, that OPEC decides to stop shipping us petroleum, I figured that given other sources of petrol, our own production, and the Strategic Petroleum Reserve, we have about 100 days of adequate amounts of petrol to supply the daily demand. The point isn't that OPEC could stop sending oil, but rather how we shouldn't actually be so Dependant on foreign sources.

    This is sort of iffy, but I'm rather confused by the US military spending. It seems that a lot of money is being poured into aviation and naval projects, for example, the production of the USS George H. W. Bush (I think those initials are right...) In my opinion, another aircraft carrier or even more fighters are not needed so much anymore. Shouldn't the money going into those programs be diverted towards troop and vehicle protection and such? Projects that are focused on the warfare we are fighting today, in Iraq?

    Lastly, the American people seem to the on the decline as well. Many are incredibly spoiled, and the youth are falling behind in the world in academics. (Based off international test scores, we are ranked horribly, but I don't know specific numbers) The American people as a whole seem only concerned with their own welfare and want instant gratification. I can't speak much for the rest of the country, but at current, my classmates for the most part are completely uninterested in anything academic. I'll make other points later.

  • #2
    I'll give you this much: as long as a full half of the American people can be duped into supporting a political party as obviously anti-American as the Democrats are, then yes, we will be declining in the near future, and it will continue until it is seen by the majority of Americans to be as disreputable to support what they are, do and say as it actually is.
    Last edited by Bluesman; 04 Jan 08,, 08:00.

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    • #3
      No.
      I enjoy being wrong too much to change my mind.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Bluesman View Post
        I'll give you this much: as long as a full half of the American people can be duped into supporting a political party as obviously anti-American as the Democrats are, then yes, we will be declining in the near future, and it will continue until it is seen by the majority of Americans to be as disreputable to support what they are, do and say as it actually is.
        Buck up, me boyo.

        -dale

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Bluesman View Post
          I'll give you this much: as long as a full half of the American people can be duped into supporting a political party as obviously anti-American as the Democrats are, then yes, we will be declining in the near future, and it will continue until it is seen by the majority of Americans to be as disreputable to support what they are, do and say as it actually is.
          America needs more people like Bluesman. So it doesn't become so difficult for me to label it as an evil capitalist empire ;)

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Feanor View Post
            America needs more people like Bluesman. So it doesn't become so difficult for me to label it as an evil capitalist empire ;)
            Oh puh-leez, your only saying that cuz your on his ingore list !

            And in answer to the Question, America's days of complete hegemony are over, it doesn't mean that it'll stop being a superpower anytime soon (It'll just have company, though even this will take 30 years minimum).
            Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative.
            - John Stuart Mill.

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            • #7
              America has peaked and is now slowly coming down
              Just as an earlier emperor moaned
              "Quintilius Varus, give me back my legions"
              Future leaders of the US seeing the ruinous cost of America's wars will moan
              George Dubya Bush Give me back my billions
              For Gallifrey! For Victory! For the end of time itself!!

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              • #8
                Hi Ace,
                In regards to your example of American dependence on foreign sources of oil as an indicator of the decline of the U.S., I'd like to know the time period you had in mind in which the U.S. was at its peak and how it did not rely on cross-border trade. The oil crises of 1973 demonstrated that America had already been using foreign oil (read as "dependent on foreign sources") for some time before OPEC decided to exercise its ability to control prices. As for the 100 day reserve supply, I know that the Strategic Petroleum Reserve has a great deal of oil for a few weeks' worth of consumption but petroleum withdrawal rates were never high enough to meet normal use.

                My take on the appearance of a decline of the U.S. isn't that it is in decline, as much as it is the U.S. experiencing a time with many challenges whether they are real or perceived. The War on Terror is something that is new, which is unlike conflicts America has engaged in the last few times -- this is not ending quickly because it requires a commitment of time and effort. Posturing from other nations to assert their ability to stand up for themselves by challenging the U.S. is one example of what I think are perceived threats. Those nations such as Iran and China do this as much for their own political socialization of their citizenry if not more so than they do to challenge America.

                In terms of dependence on foreign sources for many commodities, I think that is a result of globalization and serves to increase the wealth of those working in the corporations providing goods and services created out of materials brought in from abroad. I don't think that's a necessarily negative activity, as it fosters greater cooperation abroad and serves to assist the economies of other nations as well. With commercial aircraft as being an example, the United States is still providing for a lot of the market and these planes are made with components made both within and outside of the United States.

                As for the apparent social decay I would agree that it appears that many of the younger generation are not taking life very seriously. I do have the hope though, that many will mature out of a pattern of self-aggrandizement.

                I'm sure though that there are many others in WAB who can correct or augment my worldview here though.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Bluesman View Post
                  I'll give you this much: as long as a full half of the American people can be duped into supporting a political party as obviously anti-American as the Democrats are, then yes, we will be declining in the near future, and it will continue until it is seen by the majority of Americans to be as disreputable to support what they are, do and say as it actually is.
                  America will definitely fall if more Americans begin thinking like you. America will remain strong if her people remain strong, but all this division pitting Americans against Americans depending on there political preferences does not make for a strong nation.

                  United we stand, divided we fall.

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                  • #10
                    I think we've been knocked down a few rungs on the ladder, no big deal, unless of course you're bounced back to the days of Jimmy Carter.....ugh.

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                    • #11
                      I don't see it as a decline right now, we'll see.

                      other parts of the 3rd world are modernizing quickly, more educated and are growing exponentially in all aspects. So relative to our growth, large parts of the world are closing the gap which may make it appear so.


                      A post-Iraq/Afgan war recession is gonna be interesting tho....I wouldn't call it a decline of civilization so to speak tho, but things could get real dicey.



                      Every generation gets harsh on the newer ones, They can't handle the social and economic changes of the folks who essentially are gonna replace them.....we all look at it with the *principal syndrome* we know and remember all the bad examples, hardly notice the good ones...........this country could be on the brink of a revolution in medicine, nanotechnology, the IT field is all generation x now........it's all young kids. So don't all you older fogies boo-hoo the fall of civilization yet.

                      The 20th century was the most violent century in history. It's important to understand that our economic prosperity is usually always directly related to warfare ............warfare is a form of economics in a sense and I think it's important how we define ourselves post-Cold war, Post-Iraq/Afgan/WOT.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Julie View Post
                        I think we've been knocked down a few rungs on the ladder, no big deal, unless of course you're bounced back to the days of Jimmy Carter.....ugh.
                        Exactly, yes America was the lone superpower after the cold war.. but honestly, did you think that was going to last forever? until the end of time? It happens, nations rise and nations fall.

                        America is still very strong Economically and Militarily. When the US economy so much as sneezes, Global Economies get blasted with a hurricane. When a US carrier parks itself anywhere in the world, it can alter the entire region..without even firing a shot!

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                        • #13
                          IMO The only thing wrong with America is its politicians (all of them) attempting to infuse the words "popular" and "unpopular" into "rite" or "wrong". We are diluting ourselves with political correctness and it certainly needs to stop before we loose our guidance altogether.
                          Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by crooks View Post
                            Oh puh-leez, your only saying that cuz your on his ingore list !

                            And in answer to the Question, America's days of complete hegemony are over, it doesn't mean that it'll stop being a superpower anytime soon (It'll just have company, though even this will take 30 years minimum).
                            I say that because of his gung-ho Republicanism. I personally can't stand a$$hole conservatives....... and he happened to be one so I was all too happy to oblige. Anyways I think the current problems are not necessarily dealing with foreign resource dependence, or with military spending on naval and aviation projects. I've identified a few different key spots for myself.

                            The education system of the United States is no longer adequate at preparing a population to meet the workforce needs. As a result educated immigrants find jobs while 3rd or 4th generation Americans are usually worse off. This is primarily due to the school system, which not only has a high drop out rate, but even those who do graduate are usually forced to take remedial classes in community colleges or universities. This is a serious problem, and may also have something to do with the next problem.

                            The middle class in America is getting larger and larger. But the overall buying power of the middle class is shrinking. The rich are getting even richer as always, and regular (sometimes even white collar) wages are not keeping up with even inflationary growth.

                            Hippies...... just kidding. But seriously the problem isn't so much that American people are becoming weakened and the younger generations take life less seriously, it's more that the presence of a distinct youth culture, based on completely false values (in fact values that are almost intentionally in direct opposition with traditional values) creates a certain rift, makes it difficult to deal with the education system, and creates a large mass of voters (yes young people 18-25 are a fairly sizeable chunk of voters) that are completely unable to make any educated decision.

                            This brings me to my final point. America is experiencing what I would identify as a crisis of democracy. The country has become so large that the individual person feels disconnected from the government or the political process. As a result voters simply choose not to vote, and when people do vote it's based on a biased and usually surface look across the issues of the campaign. This is not helped by the fact that the two major political parties, which (in my opinion differ very little) do all they can to keep the real issues out of the publics eye and replace them with insignificant ''moral'' questions such as the Terry Schiavo incident, gay marriage (honestly who cares if a few thousand gays get married??), and abortion.

                            I think these points are somewhat more tangible then dependence on foreign oil or shrinkage of the military size.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Feanor View Post
                              The education system of the United States is no longer adequate at preparing a population to meet the workforce needs. As a result educated immigrants find jobs while 3rd or 4th generation Americans are usually worse off. This is primarily due to the school system, which not only has a high drop out rate, but even those who do graduate are usually forced to take remedial classes in community colleges or universities. This is a serious problem, and may also have something to do with the next problem.
                              The very fact that you're studying in an American institution says you're wrong. There is nothing wrong with the American post-2ndary education system. Their graduates are in demand all over the world. Yes, you will find a lot of Chinese and Indian engineers at a lot of firms around the world. But look closely, how many them are still Americans? Over two thirds of all American firms still employ American trained engineers.

                              As much as the Chinese and Indians would like to believe otherwise, an MIT graduate still leads the pack as far as job choices are concerned.

                              Originally posted by Feanor View Post
                              The middle class in America is getting larger and larger. But the overall buying power of the middle class is shrinking. The rich are getting even richer as always, and regular (sometimes even white collar) wages are not keeping up with even inflationary growth.
                              Are you kidding me? When I was your age, a 20 inch colour TV was luxury. My home theatre consisted of a stereo system that can play AC3 tied to a stereo VCR.

                              Automobile air conditioning was an expensive option, not a standard item. Big ticket items will always remain big ticket items but the average price of everyday items? A brand new VHS release of ALIENS went for $325. You can get a HD of AVP-R for less than $30 when it comes out.

                              Originally posted by Feanor View Post
                              Hippies...... just kidding. But seriously the problem isn't so much that American people are becoming weakened and the younger generations take life less seriously, it's more that the presence of a distinct youth culture, based on completely false values (in fact values that are almost intentionally in direct opposition with traditional values) creates a certain rift, makes it difficult to deal with the education system, and creates a large mass of voters (yes young people 18-25 are a fairly sizeable chunk of voters) that are completely unable to make any educated decision.
                              Same crap, different bowl. The very fact that a volunteer army is fighting two wars tells you just how dedicated this generation is. This is not the Vietnam generation when the Army and kids were lost for direction.

                              I'm not familiar enough with the American political process to comment on their view of democracy but your generalization is off the mark. Way off the mark.

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