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Thread: Bring Back The Iowa Class Discussion And Debate

  1. #406
    Defense Professional Dreadnought's Avatar
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    Does congress/USN think about reactivating the Iowa and Wisonsin for supporting this assault, both with their T-hawks, gunfire and mere presence?


    *Wont happen, for various reasons both political and economical. As Gun Grape mentioned before you go with what you have not what you wish for and to put any of the BB's back into service would require approximately 12 months for either Missouri and Wisconsin and more needed time for New Jersey and if need be the Iowa but doubtfull. You are comparing 1983-1990's tech with 2000-2010's tech not worth the money and the time unless you are going to do it right and that means painstaking time, effort and funding. In other words they would not be available under the amount of time and not up to USN standards for in theatre operations.

    That is not to state they are not worthy, but that they could not meet the military's stringent timeframe.
    Last edited by Dreadnought; 05 Aug 09, at 18:40.
    Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

  2. #407
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    Yeah - Even with the Iowa going straight from Suisun Bay to Bummertown and Wisconsin going to either the Portsmouth Navy Yard or Newport News straight away, the time and cost required to bring them up to speed would probably be the biggest obstacle. And even if they came back, they would have yet another 1, 2 maybe 3 years in commission before being sent back to museum or mothball duty.
    You know JJ, Him could do it....

  3. #408
    Defense Professional Dreadnought's Avatar
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    Seems funny though how the USN inspects them and still holds the pink slips on all of them. There are some very unique questions about their current status and future status to be asked but that is not for posting here on the WAB. I have a few I would like to ask just to hear the answers but it is not my place to ask and no doubt trouble would abound.
    Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

  4. #409
    Defense Professional RustyBattleship's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnought View Post
    Seems funny though how the USN inspects them and still holds the pink slips on all of them. There are some very unique questions about their current status and future status to be asked but that is not for posting here on the WAB. I have a few I would like to ask just to hear the answers but it is not my place to ask and no doubt trouble would abound.
    I thank all of you for not directing your questions and weapons concepts at me. I have most, if not all, the answers and am intimately familiar with the materiel conditions of all four ships. Perhaps too familiar and it would require me to write another book -- which I'm not ready to do yet (exhausted by the last one).

    I'll just tease at a couple such as Sabot rounds for the 16-inchers was considered way back in the 1940's and 1950's for Project Katy that would fire an 11-inch Army "Atomic Cannon" shell in a Sabot for extended range and maximum population reduction. The project got cancelled because the loading of the shells into the magazines below the turret did not meet AEC specifications.

    In the 1980's dummy Sabots were tested for loading procedures on the New Jersey. By that time nuclear shells were drastically reduced in size on down to an 8-inch Neutron warhead and the range from a full charge of 660 pounds of propellent would have sent it almost into sub-orbital flight. The problem was developing a propellent that was fast enough to burn up BEFORE the shell left the muzzle but not be so hot as to melt the barrel down.

    Rocket Assisted Projectiles for 5"/38's were tested in Viet Nam and gave some pretty good results such as maximum range of 18 miles instead of 12. But they still print pretty wide and it would be cheaper and faster to use a 16-inch shell at that range. In most cases only one or two would be needed whereas it would take one or two SALVOS of 5" RAP's.

    A 5"/54 ROCKET shell was also under development. (I used to have a cut-away plan of it but got left behind when I retired). The all up round looked like a standard 5" shell already set in the propellent casing. But the casing was actually only for the loading machine to touch and form a gas seal in the chamber upon firing. The rocket was to be laser guided which meant you still needed a Forward OP squad to shine a laser beam on the target.

    The 155mm shell with a super booster and GPS guided was very expensive and ground troops would be very pissed off if a ship had to deny a target because it cost less then the shell (like a simple log and sandbag bunker rather than a Major Battle Tank). Additionally, it still required Forward OP that was REAL good at plotting the latitude and longitude of the target so the GPS could aim the shell in its final few miles of trajectory. (My wife and another friend still can't tell if they are driving North or South even with a GPS system in their cars).

    Reactivating Iowa would be VERY expensive in the weapons department as its four Amidships ABLs have been removed and there are no spares (or even mock ups) around to replace them. So a midships VLS structure would be needed starting with cuttin down the superstructure to 01 level so the upper deck of the VLS would be up around the 04 level. Of the mods required of the main deckhous, all of the armor decking we put in on the overhead of the communications center would have to be ripped out so new decking and hefty reinforcement of girders could be installed.

    Sorry, getting carried away here. As much as I love the Battleships, my intimate knowledge of them forces me to concede that they will never be used in battle again.

    Well, maybe the Wisconsin --- oh, never mind. Brain cells are straining for a nap about now anyway and I have to be wide awake when our Air Conditioning repairman comes over. The Compressor totally pooped out yesterday and when the Long Beach Press-Telegram says the high will be 92 (in some mysterious and unidentified part of the city) you can be sure that North Long Beach will be 102.
    Able to leap tall tales in a single groan.

  5. #410
    Defense Professional Dreadnought's Avatar
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    This day Sept 2, 1945

    After finishing his introductory statement General MacArthur directed the representatives of Japan to sign the two Instruments of Surrender, one each for the Allied and Japanese governments. At 9:04 AM, Foreign Minister Shigemitsu signed, followed two minutes later by General Umezu. General MacArthur then led the Allied delegations in signing, first Fleet Admiral Nimitz as United States Representative, then the representatives of China, the United Kingdom, the Soviet Union, Australia, Canada, France, The Netherlands and New Zealand. All signatures were in place by 9:22. Following a few brief remarks by MacArthur, the ceremonies concluded at 9:25.

    Onboard USS Missouri BB63.
    Last edited by Dreadnought; 02 Sep 09, at 18:20.
    Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

  6. #411
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    Ships present in Tokyo Bay for formal surrender.

    Battleships (BB)

    USS Colorado (BB-45) USS Mississippi (BB-41)
    HMS Duke of York (17) USS Missouri (BB-63)
    USS Idaho (BB-42) USS New Mexico (BB-40)
    USS Iowa (BB-61) USS South Dakota (BB-57)
    HMS King George V (41) USS West Virginia (BB-48)

    Small Aircraft Carriers (CVL)

    USS Bataan (CVL-29) USS Cowpens (CVL-25)

    Escort Carriers (CVE)

    HMS Ruler (D.72) HMS Speaker (D.90)
    Salamaua

    Heavy Cruisers (CA)

    USS Boston (CA-69) USS St. Paul (CA-73)
    USS Chicago (CA-136) HMAS Shropshire (96)
    USS Quincy (CA-71)

    Light Cruisers (CL)

    USS Detroit (CL-8) USS Pasadena (CL-65)
    HMNZS Gambia (48) USS San Diego (CL-53)
    HMAS Hobart (I.63) USS San Juan (CL-54)
    HMS Newfoundland (59) USS Springfield (CL-66)
    USS Oakland (CL-95) USS Wilkes-Barre (CL-103)

    Destroyers (DD)

    USS Ault (DD-698) USS Mayo (DD-422)
    USS Benham (DD-796) HMAS Napier (G.97)
    USS Blue (DD-744) HMAS Nizam (G.38)
    USS Buchanon (DD-484) USS Nicholas (DD-449)
    USS Caperton (DD-650) USS Perkins (DD-877)
    USS Charles F. Hughes (DD-428)# HMS Quality (G.62)
    USS Clarence K. Bronson (DD-668) USS Robert K. Huntington (DD-781)
    USS Cogswell (DD-651) USS Southerland (DD-743)
    USS Colahan (DD-658) USS Stockham (DD-683)
    USS Cotten (DD-669) USS Taylor (DD-468)
    USS Cushing (DD-797) HMS Teazer (R.23)
    USS De Haven (DD-727) HMS Tenacious (R.45)
    USS Dortch (DD-670) HMS Terpsichore (R.33)
    USS Frank Knox (DD-742) USS Twining (DD-540)
    USS Gatling (DD-671) USS Uhlmann (DD-687)
    USS Halsey Powell (DD-686) USS Wadleigh (DD-689)
    USS Healy (DD-672) HMS Wager (R.98)
    USS Hilary P. Jones (DD-427) USS Wallace L. Lind (DD-703)
    USS Ingersoll (DD-652) HMAS Warramunga (I.44)
    USS Kalk (DD-611) USS Wedderburn (DD-684)
    USS Knapp (DD-653) HMS Whelp (R.37)
    USS Lansdowne (DD-468) HMS Wizard (R.72)
    USS Lardner (DD-487) USS Wren (DD-568)
    USS Madison (DD-425) USS Yarnell (DD-541)

    Destroyer Escorts (DE)

    USS Goss (DE-444) USS Ulvert M. Moore (DE-442)
    USS Kendall C. Campbell (DE-443) USS Waterman (DE-740)
    USS Lyman (DE-302) USS Weaver (DE-741)
    USS Major (DE-796) USS William Seiverling (DE-441)
    USS Roberts (DE-749)

    Frigates

    HMS Derg (K.257) HMAS Gascoyne (K.354)

    Sloops

    HMS Crane (U.23) HMS Whimbrel (U.29)

    Light Mine layer (DM)

    USS Gwin (DM-33) USS Thomas E. Fraser (DM-24)

    Mine Sweeper, High Speed (DMS)

    USS Ellyson (DMS-19) USS Hopkins (DMS-13)
    USS Fitch (DMS-25) USS Jeffers (DMS-27)
    USS Gherardi (DMS-30) USS Macomb (DMS-23)
    USS Hambleton (DMS-20)

    Submarines (SS)

    USS Archerfish (SS-311) USS Pilotfish (SS-386)
    USS Cavalla (SS-244) USS Razorback (SS-394)
    USS Gato (SS-212) USS Runner (SS-476)
    USS Haddo (SS-255) USS Sea Cat (SS-399)
    USS Hake (SS-256) USS Segundo (SS-398)
    USS Muskallunge (SS-262) USS Tigrone (SS-419)

    Submarine Chasers (PC)
    *Numbered ships given names in 1956.

    PC-466 [USS Carmil]* PCE(R)-849 [USS Somersworth]*
    PCE-877 [USS Havre]* PCE(R)-850 [USS Fairview]*
    PCE(R)-848

    Motor Gunboat (PGM)

    PGM-16 PGM-32
    PGM-26

    Minesweeper (AM)

    HMAS Ballarat (K.34) USS Pochard (AM-375)
    HMAS Cessnock (J.175) USS Revenge (AM-110)
    HMAS Ipswich (J.186) USS Token (AM-126)
    USS Pheasant (AM-61) USS Tumult (AM-127)
    HMAS Pirie (J.189)

    Motor Mine Sweeper (YMS)
    *Numbered ships named and reclassified in 1947

    YMS-177 YMS-390
    YMS-268 YMS-415
    YMS-276 YMS-426
    YMS-343 YMS-441 [USS Pelican (AMS-32)]*
    YMS-362 [USS Hawk (AMS-17)]* YMS-461 [USS Swallow (AMS-36)]*
    YMS-371 [USS Hornbill (AMS-19)]* YMS-467

    Auxiliary Mine Layer (ACM)

    USS Picket (ACM-8)

    Amphibious Force Flagship (AGC)

    USS Ancon (AGC-4) USS Teton (AGC-14)
    USS Mount Olympus (AGC-8)

    High Speed Transport (APD)

    USS Barr (APD-39) USS Pavlic (APD-70)
    USS Begor (APD-127) USS Reeves (APD-52)

    USS Burke (APD-65) USS Runels (APD-85)
    USS Gosselin APD-126) USS Sims (APD-50)
    USS Hollis APD-86) USS Wantuck (APD-125)
    USS Horace A. Bass APD-124) USS William M. Pattison (APD-104)
    USS John Q. Roberts(APD-94)

    Tank Landing Ship (LST)
    *Numbered ships named in 1955.
    LST-567 LST-789
    LST-648 LST-846 [USS Jennings County]*
    LST-717 LST-1083 [USS Plumas County]*
    LST-718 LST-1139

    Landing Ship, Dock (LSD)

    USS Catamount (LSD-17) USS Shadwell (LSD-15)

    Landing Craft, Infantry (LCI)

    LCI(L)-438 LCI(L)-469
    LCI(L)-441 LCI(L)-726
    LCI(L)-450 LCI(L)-752
    LCI(L)-457 LCI(L)-798
    LCI(L)-458

    Medium Landing Ship (LSM)

    LSM-13 LSM-290
    LSM-15 LSM-362
    LSM-71 LSM-368
    LSM-101 LSM-371
    LSM-208 LSM-419
    LSM-252 LSM-488
    LSM-284

    Landing Ship, Vehicle (LSV)

    USS Monitor (LSV-5) USS Ozark (LSV-2)

    Attack Transport (APA)

    USS Bosque (APA-135) USS Highlands (APA-119)
    USS Botetourt (APA-136) USS Lavaca (APA 180)
    USS Briscoe (APA-65) USS Lenawee (APA-195)
    USS Cecil (APA-96) USS Mellette (APA-156)
    USS Clearfield (APA-142) USS Missoula (APA-211)
    USS Cullman (APA-78) USS Rutland (APA-192)
    USS Darke (APA-159) USS St. Mary's (APA-126)
    USS Dauphin (APA-97) USS Sherburne (APA-205)
    USS Deuel (APA-160) USS Sheridan (APA-51)
    USS Dickens (APA-161) USS Talladega (APA-208)
    USS Hansford (APA-106)

    Transport (AP)

    USS General Sturgis (AP-137)

    Attack Cargo Ship (AKA)

    USS Libra (AKA-12) USS Todd (AKA-71)
    USS Medea (AKA-31) USS Tolland (AKA-64)
    USS Pamina (AKA-34) USS Whiteside (AKA-90)
    USS Sirona (AKA-43) USS Yancy (AKA-93)
    USS Skagit (AKA-105)

    Cargo Ship (AK)

    USS Lesuth (AK-125)

    Civilian Cargo Ships

    St. Lawrence Victory (US) Winthrop Victory (US)

    Stores Issue Ship (AKS)

    USS Cybele (AKS-10)

    Repair Ship (AR)

    USS Delta (AR-9)

    Landing Craft Repair Ship (ARL)

    USS Patroclus (ARL-19)

    Oiler (AO)

    USS Chiwawa (AO-68) USS Niobrara (AO-72)
    USS Mascoma (AO-83) USS Tamalpais (AO-96)
    USS Neches (AO-47)

    Civilian Oilers

    Carelia (British) Fort Wrangell (British)
    City of Dieppe (British) Wave King (British)
    Dingledale (British)

    Gasoline Tanker (AOG)

    USS Genesee (AOG-8)

    Destroyer Tender (AD)

    USS Piedmont (AD-17)

    Hospital Ship (AH)

    USS Benevolence (AH-13) HMHS Tjitjalengka (Dutch)
    Marigold (U.S. Army)

    Seaplane Tender (AV)

    USS Cumberland Sound (AV-17) USS Hamlin (AV-15)

    Small Seaplane Tender (AVP)

    USS Gardiners Bay (AVP-39) USS Suisun (AVP-53)
    USS Mackinac (AVP-13)

    Submarine Tender (AS)

    USS Proteus (AS-19)

    Submarine Rescue Ship (ASR)

    USS Greenlet (ASR-10)

    Fleet Ocean Tug (ATF)

    USS Moctobi (ATF-105) USS Wenatchee (ATF-118)

    Auxiliary Ocean Tug (ATA)
    *Numbered ship named in 1955

    ATA-205 [USS Sciota]*

    Ocean Tug, Old (ATO)

    USS Woodcock (ATO-145)



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    NOTE: USS Hughes was listed in the original report, but according to the ship's deck log was crossing the international date line enroute to Japan. USS Charles F. Hughes was sweeping mines outside the bay; at 10:27 the ship passed Ashika Light, at 10:30 the war ended, at 10:44 the ship made preparations for entering the port and anchored at 12:21 in Tokyo Bay. USS Begor conducted a beach reconaissance at Tateyama Wan on 31 August before returning to Yokosuka in time for the surrender ceremony.
    Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

  7. #412
    Defense Professional Dreadnought's Avatar
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    With the world finally at peace for a time, I have often wondered just how many children were concieved that night or in the few days to follow.
    Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

  8. #413
    Defense Professional RustyBattleship's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnought View Post
    After finishing his introductory statement General MacArthur directed the representatives of Japan to sign the two Instruments of Surrender, one each for the Allied and Japanese governments. At 9:04 AM, Foreign Minister Shigemitsu signed, followed two minutes later by General Umezu. General MacArthur then led the Allied delegations in signing, first Fleet Admiral Nimitz as United States Representative, then the representatives of China, the United Kingdom, the Soviet Union, Australia, Canada, France, The Netherlands and New Zealand. All signatures were in place by 9:22. Following a few brief remarks by MacArthur, the ceremonies concluded at 9:25.

    Onboard USS Missouri BB63.
    A full transcription copied directly from another copy of the Missouri's deck log (found aboard the ship when she arrived in Long Beach for modernization) of that day is Appenix H in my book.

    I felt that the efforts of LBNSY, Roosevelt Base and Reeves N.A.S. contributed much to have that day happen.
    Able to leap tall tales in a single groan.

  9. #414
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    Quote Originally Posted by RustyBattleship View Post
    A full transcription copied directly from another copy of the Missouri's deck log (found aboard the ship when she arrived in Long Beach for modernization) of that day is Appenix H in my book.
    I found a couple of 8x10 nitrate negatives of the "Instrument of Surrender" in my collection. Since they're nitrate negatives they have to be at least 60 years old.

  10. #415
    Defense Professional RustyBattleship's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ytlas View Post
    I found a couple of 8x10 nitrate negatives of the "Instrument of Surrender" in my collection. Since they're nitrate negatives they have to be at least 60 years old.
    This is a good time to scan them and print them on this board before the day is out.
    Able to leap tall tales in a single groan.

  11. #416
    Military Professional dundonrl's Avatar
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    just looking at that list, why no fleet carriers in Tokyo Bay, guessing they were holding them outside the harbor just "in case" the Japanese didn't surrender?

  12. #417
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    Quote Originally Posted by dundonrl View Post
    just looking at that list, why no fleet carriers in Tokyo Bay, guessing they were holding them outside the harbor just "in case" the Japanese didn't surrender?
    Correct, Spruance was standing by with the big fleet carriers for just that reason.

    Also the fleet carriers would've been much more vulnerable to attack, whether organized by the Japanese high commands or a few die-hards like Ugaki who decided they had no interest in surrendering.

    Whereas the heavily armed and armored battlewagons and cruisers would've been able to instantly and far more effectively fight back, in addition to absorbing pretty much whatever was thrown at them.

    Hence there was just a handful of the small carriers to represent naval aviation at the surrender.

    Interesting anecdote about using battleships for that role: As USS Missouri entered the harbor, Japanese destroyer Hatsuzakura was standing by to escort them in past the Japanese minefields.

    CO Murrary ordered the destroyer to lead the way, figuring that out of sheer self-preservation, the DD would well and truly avoid the mines. The Japanese captain signaled back that he preferred to stand close by Missouri instead.

    Murray repeated the order and the DD moved a little further ahead, but still kept beside the battleship.

    Murray then ordered one of the quad-40mm mounts, along with the entire starboard 5-inch battery (all 10 guns!) to train on the Hatsuzakura, which immediately shot ahead of the Missouri as originally instructed.

    Murray then ordered the Hatsuzakura to ping with her active sonar, which would reveal any submerged Japanese subs waiting in ambush.

    Once again, it took a repeat of the message and finally the 2 forward 16-inch turrets being pointed in her direction for the Hatsuzakura to comply with gusto.
    TwentyFiveFortyFive

  13. #418
    Patron Michigan_Guy's Avatar
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    TopHatter that has to be one of the funnies thing's I've ever read, I bet they were crapping their pants when those guns trained on them!!!
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  14. #419
    Defense ProfessionalSenior Contributor tbm3fan's Avatar
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    Just read the long list above and saw a ship on the list that still is afloat to this day. Not the BB museums that we know of but another ship. Anybody have an idea which ship on the list it is?

  15. #420
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    I wonder where the Massachusetts BB59 was? I know she was credited with firing the last 16" projectiles in War2.

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