Carrier group penetration?

[BMF12]

Hey guys...I'm not too sure about this thread, but I was just wondering how possible it would be for a modern day attack sub(of any type/nationality) to be able to penetrate a modern carrier group and make a kill, or maybe even just a 'shot at glory'. Is is even conceivable that that 'could' happen? If not, what is the best method to attack and eliminate a full carrier group if ever an impossiblity such as that arrose? Just my imagination rambling........but I could use some 'educated' responses.......Thanks.....BMF

[JA Boomer]

I will direct you here...

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/nav...u-s-fleet.html

and here...

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/nav...r-pacific.html

for proof that apparently it can be done, if you catch the escorts sleeping.

[Feanor]

Nuke it. Seriously. Tactical nuke. Problem solved.

[Dreadnought]

Nuke it. Seriously. Tactical nuke. Problem solved.

And what will you call HOME after that? Chances are HOME will recieve quite a few nukes shortly thereafter. A very large price to pay for one Carrier considering amount of people killed,infastructure collapsed and more death from the fall out and sickness.

That is to say that the Carrier dont survive. But read about the Bikini Atoll tests. The Americans tested their old carriers but no one else did so thats one thing they planned for with the future Carriers aka "now days";)

[Silent Hunter]

Get thirty or forty Tupolev Tu-22Ms and spam the group with "Kitchens".

[JCT]

Subs, they have the stealth to get in close...if they are lucky. The USN's ASW capabilities have attrophied over the last decade and it will take awhile to build it back up. If the S-3 Viking is not gone yet, it is on the way out, leaving only a few ASW helo's to provide organic air support. The early flight Arleigh Burkes do not even embark any helos.

The Navy has always been good at AAW.

[Feanor]

And what will you call HOME after that? Chances are HOME will recieve quite a few nukes shortly thereafter. A very large price to pay for one Carrier considering amount of people killed,infastructure collapsed and more death from the fall out and sickness.

That is to say that the Carrier dont survive. But read about the Bikini Atoll tests. The Americans tested their old carriers but no one else did so thats one thing they planned for with the future Carriers aka "now days";)

Well who's fighting the U.S. here? If it's Russia then we're pretty much screwed as is

Get thirty or forty Tupolev Tu-22Ms and spam the group with "Kitchens".

That was the plan ;)

EDIT: Dreadnought the question was what is the best way to attack, not ''Attack and come home to live happily ever after''. Most of the methods so far seems near-suicidal.

[Dreadnought]

Well who's fighting the U.S. here? If it's Russia then we're pretty much screwed as is



That was the plan ;)

EDIT: Dreadnought the question was what is the best way to attack, not ''Attack and come home to live happily ever after''. Most of the methods so far seems near-suicidal.

Agreed,
Most nations that can afford and float a carrier more then likely have the nuclear deterent to back the carrier group.;)

[Master Chief]

Well, use all of them. Have the subs move in for a attack, then have the SSGN's launch there cruise missiles. At the same time have the airstrike launch its cruise missiles. And if that don't work, signal the "DEATHSTAR" to fire! LOL

[gunnut]

Any defense can be overcome. The quesiton is how much are you willing to pay? :))

[Feanor]

Any defense can be overcome. The quesiton is how much are you willing to pay? :))

How much can you afford to pay is the real question. I'd pay 597 586 097 346 703 958 760 347 568 025 708 652 780 673 420 867 280 576 280 576 in USD for putting mother Russia on track towards successful recovery, but I don't have even 10 000$ :( Is there a country that has an AC but no nukes? France, GB, India, US, Russia . . . . .who else?

[JA Boomer]

Get thirty or forty Tupolev Tu-22Ms and spam the group with "Kitchens".

Subs, they have the stealth to get in close...if they are lucky. The USN's ASW capabilities have attrophied over the last decade and it will take awhile to build it back up. If the S-3 Viking is not gone yet, it is on the way out, leaving only a few ASW helo's to provide organic air support. The early flight Arleigh Burkes do not even embark any helos.

The Navy has always been good at AAW.

Agreed. I would say aside from the more advanced surface ships being fielded currently...the Navy had a better defensive shield back in the day. S-3's will be missed in the anti-submarine role and the F-14 was undoubtedly better suited to the fleet defense role than the current F/A-18 C/E/F combo.

[wabpilot]

Hey guys...I'm not too sure about this thread, but I was just wondering how possible it would be for a modern day attack sub(of any type/nationality) to be able to penetrate a modern carrier group and make a kill, or maybe even just a 'shot at glory'. Is is even conceivable that that 'could' happen? If not, what is the best method to attack and eliminate a full carrier group if ever an impossiblity such as that arrose? Just my imagination rambling........but I could use some 'educated' responses.......Thanks.....BMF

That depends on the carrier you want to sink.

If you are going after a US carrier battle group, you will need the entire Soviet AVMF. It's going to take a couple of regiments of Backfires, a regiment of Bears and it wouldn't hurt to have a couple of Charlies too. Here's how you do it. First, you fly your RORSAT over the ocean hoping to find the general position of the battle group, and its general course and speed. Let's say you can tie the CVBG down to a patch of ocean, perhaps protecting convoys headed from the US and Canada to Europe. Now with your RORSAT imagry in hand it's time to refine the position. For that, you need Bears, lots of Bears. Mr. Bear flies out over the Atlantic looking and listening for the CVBG. The surviving Bears should radio back the battle group's position and course. (The emphasis here is on surviving.)

Now it's time to launch a Backfire raid. Send a couple of regiments, because you're going to lose lots of them. And, that carrier may have moved between the time your surviving Bears located it and when your Backfires get into position to launch. So, it's best to spread your launchers across a wide swath of ocean. (It also spreads the defense out too.) It's extra helpful if you have some SSGN's (Charlie class boats) too. It's tough to communicate with Charlie and not reveal his position to the ASW folks, but if you can maneuver a Charlie into a blocking position it will help your Backfire raid. So, now you've got your Charlie in position to block the CVBG and maybe even hoist a few SLCMs into the mix. Nothing better than an off threat axis attack to break up the defense.

The closer to the battle group your Backfires can get, the better. They will have better solution sets for their cruise missiles if they can actually get within radar range of the battle group. Of course, this will mean that most if not all your Backfires will get shot down by the F-18Es and Fs. But, hey bagging a CVN is worth losing your air force, isn't it? Launch lots and lots of missiles because the Ticonderogas and Burkes will be shooting down your missiles like it was target practice. Between their own radars, and the E-2, they'll have a good target solution on your missiles, so you need to overwhelm them. That's why I said bring as many regiments of Backfires as you can. Make sure you launch in close, so the F-18s won't attrit your missiles with their own AMRAAMs and Sidewinders. If you launch too far out, you won't have a good enough solution set to get all your missiles pointed at the Carrier and too many of them will be attrited before the SM-2s have at them. In the end, all you can really hope for is a few missiles will leak through and get hits on the carrier.

Now, you have to get really lucky with your hits on the carrier. Remember, the USN hasn't lost a carrier to enemy action since June 1942. Since then, damage control has become higly evolved. Our carriers are armored now and have excellent compartmentalization. I cannot discuss all the DC means and methods we employ. Just remember, no one does DC any better than we do.

Your Charlie will fare better than your Backfires. Mr. Charlie, if he launches at long range will be able to escape with his life. We don't have the S-3s to kill him anymore. Our Ocean Hawks lack the speed and range to run down a Charlie launching at long range. If he closes in, it's a different story. Our Sea Hawks will get him. Their dunking sonar along with the towed array sonars of our DDGs and FFGs are simply too good to let him escape. But, Mr. Charlie can definitely do some damage along the way.

If all this sounds like a suicide mission, well it is. The Sovs knew this. That's why they built the AVMF so large and concentrated it on hitting convoys and not carriers. Convoys were what threatened the Soviet Union, not carriers. At least not until we unveiled our maritime strategy.

There is another way to get a US carrier group. And, frankly this is probably the bigger threat. Use a very quiet submarine operating in a choke point. For example, the Straits of Hormuz if a CVBG is transiting them, or the Straits of Malacca, or Gibralter. Gibralter is a great place to hide a SSK. The currents and differing salinity of the various layers of water make for difficult sonar detection. And CVBGs make a lot of noise, even with their Prarie and Masker turned on. Also, the battle group has to move through the straits in a fairly confined manner. So, the SSK gets to pick his spot for attack. Still there are the Sea Hawks and Ocean Hawks. Also, Gibralter is a known choke point. So, the USN is likely to patrol it with P-3Cs too. We also have our LA class boats. They are no slouches when it comes to ASW. Still, it is my judgment that a SSK operating from at a choke point has a lot better chance of putting a torpedo in a CV than a regimental Backfire raid has of putting a missile in a CV.

Again there is the damage control issue. CVs are tough to sink. It's not as simple as popping the main seal and watching the ship go down. I cannot discuss all the DC means and methods involved, but we do it very well. Keep that in mind.

[ArmchairGeneral]

How much can you afford to pay is the real question. I'd pay 597 586 097 346 703 958 760 347 568 025 708 652 780 673 420 867 280 576 280 576 in USD for putting mother Russia on track towards successful recovery, but I don't have even 10 000$ :( Is there a country that has an AC but no nukes? France, GB, India, US, Russia . . . . .who else?

Spain, Italy, Thailand, Brazil, ROK in a few years.

[Feanor]

There is another way to get a US carrier group. And, frankly this is probably the bigger threat. Use a very quiet submarine operating in a choke point. For example, the Straits of Hormuz if a CVBG is transiting them, or the Straits of Malacca, or Gibralter. Gibralter is a great place to hide a SSK. The currents and differing salinity of the various layers of water make for difficult sonar detection. And CVBGs make a lot of noise, even with their Prarie and Masker turned on. Also, the battle group has to move through the straits in a fairly confined manner. So, the SSK gets to pick his spot for attack. Still there are the Sea Hawks and Ocean Hawks. Also, Gibralter is a known choke point. So, the USN is likely to patrol it with P-3Cs too. We also have our LA class boats. They are no slouches when it comes to ASW. Still, it is my judgment that a SSK operating from at a choke point has a lot better chance of putting a torpedo in a CV than a regimental Backfire raid has of putting a missile in a CV.

Again there is the damage control issue. CVs are tough to sink. It's not as simple as popping the main seal and watching the ship go down. I cannot discuss all the DC means and methods involved, but we do it very well. Keep that in mind.

Would it be viable to, instead of a torpedo attack, load a nuclear warhead onto the sub and simply suicide bomb the CVBG?