What If Subhash Chandra Bose had marched upto Delhi?

[Adux]

Remember, the majority of the British Indian Army is 90% Indian. Now if we were to take snipers and shoot the majority of British officers, Slim if still alive would be running the army with such a paranoi and fear of the army turning against him that it would render the army practically useless like paralysis.

BM,

If at all we had a trait of that sorts, the brits wouldnt have ruled us for that long. When did it happen other than 1857. We were a set of people who were tailor made for divide and rule policy. Brits knew how to play their cards. You had more people going against Bose, like Gandhi, Nehru etc. They had more people-power than Bose.

[Blademaster]

Never thought of that. 1st thought was that the Japanese would have penetrated deeper and might have just held onto Burma until war's end. How much would that changed the strategic picture, I don't know. Remember the Japanese lost the war through the Pacific and in Northern China. Would that have given the INA a proper staging ground and rallying point, I don't know.

What I am arguing is that given the IJA's heavy committments in the Pacific and Northern China, IJA's ability to brownbeat INA into submission were highly limited and in exchange for a western front being friendly to Japanese interests, they were gonna have to let INA run the show in India.

I told you that, remember, but you've missed my point here. Battle momentum is vital if you are to achieve victory. The Chinese did not planned nor desired to push their momentum beyond their immediate objectives. But that does not mean that they were without options. Do recall in the Korean War that they even try to block 8th Army's retreat with a single company at the end of 8th Army's retreat ... and they suffered big time for their efforts ... but look at what their efforts bought them - a propaganda victory that overshadowed the military disaster they've just endured.

With respects to Slim in this case, the point was that Slim would not let a chance to destroy his enemy slip away.

Gotcha. That will only happen if he had the ability to do so. If INA was to launch a propoganda drive and assassinate only British officers and some British Indian Army showing some sympathy and condoning the actions of INA, I think that Slim and his senior British officers would be more paranoid and internally hamstring their capability by imposing a lot of limits on Indian soldiers. That would create a cause and effect cycle that the British would have no hope getting out. That's what I meant by politically, Netaji had an ace up his sleeves. That's what the British officers were so scared of. They rated Netaji as the number one threat to their success in the Burma theater and Southeast Asia theater because Netaji threatened the viability of the British Indian Army. They viewed Netaji as a greater threat than the Japanese forces because the Japanese forces were not capable of defeating the British Indian Army when as a whole but Netaji did.

Again, they were hamstrung by the Japanese. All the campaigns were devised by the IJA, not the INA, and the IJA took the main thrusts while leaving the subordinate, though important, actions to the INA. They were the force protection for the campaign, not the main thrust.

Gotcha. I would have to think on this one.

[Adux]

The Chinese army's reasons for not pressing forward with further invasion of Indian territory has nothing to do with the fact that it proved fortuitous for Indian Army HQ. If anything it shows how markedly deficient Indian army higher leadership was in operational art compared to their counterparts in China.

Indian Army had to fight with their both hands tied, while Chinese counterparts had almost a free-hand. kesava menon(sadly a malayalee) and Nehru went over-board with hindi-chini bhai bhai restricted IA actions and IAF help.

[Blademaster]

Would not happen that way. Remember what kind of man Slim was. He was a soldier's soldier. He got the best out of people, most notably his Indian soldiers. From everything I've read, he instilled pride, confidence, and loyalty.

True but if Netaji started the ball rolling, Slim would not be able to do much about it because the other British officers would take it out on the Indian soldiers and Indian soldiers would respond and it would spiral out of control easily.

I realize that there is a lot of ifs and maybes but at least it is plausible.

[Adux]

True but if Netaji started the ball rolling, Slim would not be able to do much about it because the other British officers would take it out on the Indian soldiers and Indian soldiers would respond and it would spiral out of control easily.

I rather doubt this?

I realize that there is a lot of ifs and maybes but at least it is plausible.

[Blademaster]

I rather doubt this?

Ever heard of alternative history or "what ifs" scenarios?

[Cactus]

Remember, the majority of the British Indian Army is 90% Indian. Now if we were to take snipers and shoot the majority of British officers, Slim if still alive would be running the army with such a paranoi and fear of the army turning against him that it would render the army practically useless like paralysis.

Blademaster,

In combat-arms the British Indian Army was only between 50-75% Indian. In peace-time infantry every 2 battalions of an Indians is brigaded with 1 battalion of British (ideal 66%); in peace-time Indians were not enrolled in light, medium or field artillery, only mountain regiments, so in 1945 BIA had just 15 med and field regiments; let us not even go near the mess that was the Indian cavalry/armoured forces. RIAF and RIN were even more plugged into British controlled life-support. Elementary BIA history.

[Adux]

Ever heard of alternative history or "what ifs" scenarios?

Yes, but lets keep our variable under the relam of possibility and have some kind of historic precedence or atleast character to back it up.

[Adux]

Blademaster,

In combat-arms the British Indian Army was only between 50-75% Indian. In peace-time infantry every 2 battalions of an Indians is brigaded with 1 battalion of British (ideal 66%); in peace-time Indians were not enrolled in light, medium or field artillery, only mountain regiments, so in 1945 BIA had just 15 med and field regiments; let us not even go near the mess that was the Indian cavalry/armoured forces. RIAF and RIN were even more plugged into British controlled life-support. Elementary BIA history.

Was nationalism propogated by Gandhi and all have a support base in the British Indian Army?

British Indian Army and Indian Army of today I believe is very classic, orthodox in nature. March were the politicans orders.

Heck, we even had JN Dixit refusing to assassinate Prabhakaran because that is like shooting in the back according Indian Army. Something Israeli's would disagree and call a stupid move. Can such an Army mutiny against masters whoever they may be?

[Blademaster]

Yes, but lets keep our variable under the relam of possibility and have some kind of historic precedence or atleast character to back it up.

What do you think I have been doing? I have backed it up with historical precedence such as 1857 and the political picture back in the 1940s.

You know what? Instead of attacking my theories, why don't you provide an alternative theory and I will attack your theory along the same line you have been attacking me?

[Blademaster]

Blademaster,

In combat-arms the British Indian Army was only between 50-75% Indian. In peace-time infantry every 2 battalions of an Indians is brigaded with 1 battalion of British (ideal 66%); in peace-time Indians were not enrolled in light, medium or field artillery, only mountain regiments, so in 1945 BIA had just 15 med and field regiments; let us not even go near the mess that was the Indian cavalry/armoured forces. RIAF and RIN were even more plugged into British controlled life-support. Elementary BIA history.

Right, that was in peacetime. But now Britain is in WWII and she needed all the manpower she could get. If Indian soldiers could not be called on to defend Britain, British soldiers in the British Indian Army would have to leave India and join the British Army to protect their homeland. Now if INA was to be increased by twicefold, the BIA would find itself in a difficult position.

[Cactus]

Was nationalism propogated by Gandhi and all have a support base in the British Indian Army?

Yes, there was reserved respect for Gandhi's self-discipline among the young Indian officer corps, as well as worshipfulness among the ORs recruited from more open communities. However, there were larger followings of Nehru and Jinnah among the officer corps. The moderates, like Nehru, were convinced that British sun had set but Allies under Americans would prevail... so fighting for the Allies would win them the freedom. The radical Moslem fundamentalists hoped to prepare for the ineitable fight for dominance that would characterize the post-Independence period.

British Indian Army and Indian Army of today I believe is very classic, orthodox in nature. March were the politicans orders.

Not really. Indian Army, like many Indians, often falls back to ritualism rather than true orthodoxy; the orthodox core is a very small and probably irrelavent one. Indian Army, like many Indians, is also capable of remarkable insight and unorthodoxy on occassions.

Heck, we even had JN Dixit refusing to assassinate Prabhakaran because that is like shooting in the back according Indian Army. Something Israeli's would disagree and call a stupid move. Can such an Army mutiny against masters whoever they may be?

Yes, it is quite possible for an officer in modern military to decline such an order on basis of command responsibility (I believe you misquoted, JN Dixit was the ambassador... the order was relayed to a Div GOC who supposedly refused). If the exact circumstances checks out as reported (and there is some debate about it), is not mutiny. Egotistical leaders who construe it such way are traitors to the long-term health of the organization.

[Adux]

[QUOTE=Blademaster;436652]

What do you think I have been doing? I have backed it up with historical precedence such as 1857 and the political picture back in the 1940s.

1857 was against East India Company. British Army culture was far different. You can talk about the Royal Indian Navy Revolt in Bombay 1946 though

You know what? Instead of attacking my theories, why don't you provide an alternative theory and I will attack your theory along the same line you have been attacking me?

I rather love the way history as played out for us, we will have to bring in a lot of variabes in favour Bose and take out a lot of advantages off the brits , if we had to envisage a British Defeat. It was not a even playing field, Bose had a rather small manovering space, Heck he couldnt pick set piece battles. Its rather unrealistic IMHO

[Officer of Engineers]

True but if Netaji started the ball rolling, Slim would not be able to do much about it because the other British officers would take it out on the Indian soldiers and Indian soldiers would respond and it would spiral out of control easily.

I realize that there is a lot of ifs and maybes but at least it is plausible.

Hitesh,

You do know that there are times I really, really don't like you. I have a bottle of scotch waiting for you just so I can tell you how much I hate your guts ... and you better keep up. You've forced me to think this out ... while I was shoveling snow I might add.

However,

Bose was not a player in this game. He was a pawn. You could have quadrupled his Indian volunteers and it would not have made one single iota of difference. The Japanese would not and could not armed him to the level necessary for him to win. The Japanese were stretched beyond belief against the Americans and Chinese. They would not armed a puppet (in their view) in a minor theater.

If you are going to play the force of personality card with Bose, then you will have to play the same card with Slim. As I stated, Slim was a soldier's soldier and no matter how you might want to play up Bose, he ain't no soldier, He could recruit but he would be in no way capable of keeping soldiers as Slim could. I would submit that in a battle between Bose and Slim, it would be Bose who would see desertions.

It was not just the British the INA faced but the Chinese and Americans as well. The Chinese threw in 65,000 troops alone in Burma in addition to their other commitments. That is 15,000 more than than accepted final INA strengt5h. Now, mind you they were attacking the Japanese but in your scenario, the Japanese were to let the INA free reign in which case, they also had free reign to defend themselves ... which meant Chinese and American forces.

Militarily speaking, this was a lost cause.

[Blademaster]

OOE,

My deed is done for the day!

Anyway, I thank you for taking the time to think about it. I can certainly see where you are going and I am forced to agree with your conclusions. I have certainly thought about it and realized that even the majority of the population was very supportive of Bose, the fact is that there were other significant portions of the population that sided along with the British as Adux pointed out (I was forced to consider that angle which I hadn't consider before- there were some princely states that wanted to remain with the British to preserve their powers and wealth) and there was no really strong unity.

But supposed if the WWII ended and the British refused to leave India, how would INA play in that role? IIRC, they only surrendered once the Japanese forces signed the article of surrender.