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  • #31
    Originally posted by Cactus View Post
    PLA surely wouldn't want to be manouvered into a position like it was in 1989, but once put in that position there is very little to prevent them from reacting in the same manner they did. No amount of education on legal and illegal orders is going to prevent that - there will always be a few pliable psychos to precipitate an escalation, after that it is all fear psychosis.

    To give you a small sample of how little effect such "education" has, look at the recent video of border guards (PAP?) shooting down those Tibetan civilians running away from the guards to Nepal. Now imagine if there were 1000 times more Tibetans and moving towards the guards?
    erm... PLA is quite a different case here, as OoE has pointed out. the other thing is that PLA is famed to be 'the people's army', and they stayed true to that until '89. b4 that there is seldom (probably none) incidents of PLA hurting chinese residents, unless u want to count the semi-militant forces in 'east turkistan' or tibet. but being semi-militant granted the PLA enough excuses to shoot.

    so its probably only one obvious case in the past and i dun think its fair to generalise that.

    as for the police, the chinese police force is at least a few grade lower in terms of discipline than the military (they take bribes, act like street bullies etc). except border guards or guarding important facilities, they are usually unarmed (as in firearm) and go around with either a baton or a stun gun. even in banks its like that. they had a special wing in the police system called 'wujing' or 'armed police', more like a SWAT team except its bigger, has much more personnel. they dealt with armed criminals or hostage situations. in other words the chinese govt wouldnt really trust the common police in a major crisis.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
      Last year there was a film released about Tibetans going hunting down poachers. What struck me about this film was that these were simple villagers with maybe one of them having any official connections. They were armed with AKs and off they went. Tibet is not as safe as people are lead to believe.It's already happened. Whenever the monks got enough nerve to march in protest but the PAP's weapon of choice is a 6 foot club, not AKs.
      different from what human rights group usually claimed, minority races in china enjoyed much privileges, and its written in the law. the minority races really made good use of that, to the extreme.

      they are usually allowed to carry knives or daggers. particularly in universities, if some han chinese(majority race) quarelled with a minority, say tibetian, mongolian or urgur, there is a high chance the han chinese would get stabbed or beaten up. and the school admin would just close one eye. even on the streets in beijing or shanghai, urgur thieves and pickpockets (they overwhelmed the major cities in the last 2 yrs) werent really punished when caught. if they were caught red-handed by the public and sent to the police stations, they would be released in a few days after some 'verbal education'. thanks to western pressure on chinese human rights, no legal action are taken against them (unless they murdered someone).

      white or dark westerners are of course, pretty safe in tibet or urgur, cos its obvious they are foreigners. foreigner-related crimes are usually severely punished in china cos the govt dont want to lose face, and minorities would like the westerners to continue their support to pressurize chinese govt, so they want to remain as 'the one being suppressed' in foreigners' eyes. they wouldnt want to hurt foreigners. asian foreigners like me, however, would sometimes be treated as local han chinese and given poor hospitability, and stand a higher chance of facing dangerous situations, unless i pretend to be a japanese or a korean, which i find absurb.

      about the film u said, it was a true story about 10yrs back. background is, the 'hunters' social class in china (usually minority races in tibet, xinjiang, inner mongolia and chinese-korean border) are allowed to carry rifles. the AK'ers are of cos illegal, but also prevail. the tibetian villagers portrayed in the film volunteered to safeguard their land from the AK wielding poachers, but had little financial support from the govt. so whenever they confiscated the hides from the poachers, they sold some of it to fund themselves. this led to contradicting views cos their identity was blurred. some would question whether they are just innocent villagers, or are they actually trying to kill off competition? so after a major retaliation from the poachers and some members lost, the team was disbanded.
      Last edited by Aniki; 01 Oct 07,, 03:20.

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      • #33
        Thanks for your posts Aniki, I found them informative and it's nice to read other views.
        Originally posted by GVChamp
        College students are very, very, very dumb. But that's what you get when the government subsidizes children to sit in the middle of a corn field to drink alcohol and fuck.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Tarek Morgen View Post
          But what will happen if you are surrounded, someone, or maybe a few person hiding in the oterhwise peaceful crowd are starting to throw rocks at you, bottles or even molotov-cocktails? What happens when you partner next to you gets hit and is wounded? Can really everyone be 100% sure not to react in a way he would regret later on?
          Thats a case for self defence , and if weapons were used to wound your partner then it is justifiable .. But what i really want to know is as has happened in Burma , the troops have been told to kill in a peacefull demo , would we / us / I , as civilsed soldiers have carried out them orders .

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          • #35
            well, during my dad's time the govt just use mobsters to whack the crowd (nowadays people busing earning money and had no time messing around with govt, esp when things are still bearable). at that time the govt themselves stayed clean, until things when out of control, then they moved in to 'quell the crowd'. they recieve little repercussions this way.

            its no doubt a good tactic from the govt point of view. but its no way a fair play. during my time in the army there's no chance for such feats, and anyway i'm just a company quartermaster in a reservists' camp, so no chance for front line actions. :P

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Expat Canuck View Post
              Thanks for your posts Aniki, I found them informative and it's nice to read other views.
              always welcome. its nothing much actually, anyone with enough time in china could've known all these.

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              • #37
                It was so nice to see the Army Mjr who defected and disobeyed the orders to fire on the monks and civilians , a man with a consience .

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                • #38
                  So you guys are all saying it's ok to beat the crap out of a peaceful protest? Mow it down with watercannons, and rifle butts, as long as lethal force isn't used?

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                  • #39
                    depends what you define as peaceful protest , as you some time ago posted that you do not go nowhere in Russia without a chain or knife ....
                    If i only was so smart yesterday as my wife is today

                    Minding your own biz is great virtue, but situation awareness saves lives - Dok

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                    • #40
                      Peaceful means the protesters aren't beating the crap out of anyone, and aren't looting shops. About the knife and chain. Well that's Russia. Not to say I would use them if (when) the cops decide to break the protest up by force. But I wouldn't start first. Unless of course the order came from our partorg. But then it would probably have been decided on ahead of time, and we'd be there with real weapons. And it wouldn't just be us. It would be the AKM, RSKM, CPRF, NBP, RSSM, and probably some skinheads too. And it wouldn't just be Voronezh, it would be every AKM battalion and every NBP group in Russia.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Feanor View Post
                        Peaceful means the protesters aren't beating the crap out of anyone, and aren't looting shops. About the knife and chain. Well that's Russia. Not to say I would use them if (when) the cops decide to break the protest up by force. But I wouldn't start first. Unless of course the order came from our partorg. But then it would probably have been decided on ahead of time, and we'd be there with real weapons. And it wouldn't just be us. It would be the AKM, RSKM, CPRF, NBP, RSSM, and probably some skinheads too. And it wouldn't just be Voronezh, it would be every AKM battalion and every NBP group in Russia.
                        You posted me something about your opposition group, and you have made several claims about being a member of a well-armed oppositionary force. Can you tell me more?

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Feanor View Post
                          Peaceful means the protesters aren't beating the crap out of anyone, and aren't looting shops. About the knife and chain. Well that's Russia. Not to say I would use them if (when) the cops decide to break the protest up by force. But I wouldn't start first. Unless of course the order came from our partorg. But then it would probably have been decided on ahead of time, and we'd be there with real weapons. And it wouldn't just be us. It would be the AKM, RSKM, CPRF, NBP, RSSM, and probably some skinheads too. And it wouldn't just be Voronezh, it would be every AKM battalion and every NBP group in Russia.
                          - Sigh -
                          If i only was so smart yesterday as my wife is today

                          Minding your own biz is great virtue, but situation awareness saves lives - Dok

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by entropy View Post
                            You posted me something about your opposition group, and you have made several claims about being a member of a well-armed oppositionary force. Can you tell me more?
                            õÓÔÁ× áëí

                            Here's a link to the basic outline. Also we have a certain number of definetly illegal weapons stashes, that are supposedly going to be used when the time comes. Our kombat (partorg basically) told us that when we have enough support we will rise up and do something about all of this.

                            We protest along side various other opposition groups, including the RSKM, CPRF, NBP, SSM, and others. In some cases even along side with skins.

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                            • #44
                              "Scientific communism", huh? Dictature of the proletariate?

                              If I will ever return to Russia, and a civil war will break out, I will by no means hesitate to fight against you.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Feanor View Post
                                So you guys are all saying it's ok to beat the crap out of a peaceful protest? Mow it down with watercannons, and rifle butts, as long as lethal force isn't used?
                                If the order is legal and the situation warrants it, yeah, it's more than ok. It's required.

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