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  • Females in combat units

    What nations currently allow this?

    I know Germany recently opened all military occupations except special forces to females. What about like Israel, Switzerland, etc?

  • #2
    I've heard a rumour that the South Koreans have a special forces unit made up entirely of women, for situations where women wouldn't draw suspicion.

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    • #3
      Israel has recently had a sort of re-opening of the discussion where a lot of people are for it. They can already be combat pilots, but they are still currently restricted from special forces, infantry & armored corps. There are some special forces units which are artillery for example, like spotter scouts, and I'm not sure if they're allowed there or not. There is one co-ed battalion sized called Caracal which does security in low-threat areas such as around the Jordanian and Egyptian borders.

      My personal opinion is, as long as they can qualify to the same exact standards, bring 'em in. As long as its not taboo for people in co-ed units to have relationships and what not, because its gonna happen regardless. If that will kill discipline, then make all-girl combat units instead.
      In Iran people belive pepsi stands for pay each penny save israel. -urmomma158
      The Russian Navy is still a threat, but only to those unlucky enough to be Russian sailors.-highsea

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      • #4
        The CF is the only force in the world that allows women to join all arms - whether they can meet the competition is another question. Thus far, the quota system is the only thing keeping most in the combat arms and mostly in the admin positions.

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        • #5
          Good topic. If someone is capable of doing any job, they should be allowed to do it IMO. The other side of the coin however is the effect on a military unit as a whole rather than an equality issue..

          Somebody correct me if I am wrong but I dimly recall the Israeli`s having women soldiers in front line positions years ago. If a women got injured, the male soldiers tended to put their own unit/mission in danger trying to protect them. The effect of a women getting a gunshot wound was more traumatic for the guys to witness and combat discipline broke down a little. This was some years ago, I don`t know Israel`s position today but this was the situation as explained to me by a former Israeli reservist.

          Of course, this is a reflection on male characteristics rather than the quality of female recruits. Would be interesting to hear from the girls on the forum for their perspective.

          OoE, does Canada allow women to fight in front-line combat units? Are there women squaddies in Afghanistan now?

          I know women don`t serve on submarines (SSNs) , something to do with the recirculated air and possible foetal damage, according to a recent thread here on WAB.
          "Liberty is a thing beyond all price.

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          • #6
            Due a decision from the European High court in 2001 Woman must have the right to join all branches (not sure about subs) Currently there are about 15.000 women serving. The draft still only affect men though...

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            • #7
              Originally posted by TIN MAN View Post
              Good topic. If someone is capable of doing any job, they should be allowed to do it IMO. The other side of the coin however is the effect on a military unit as a whole rather than an equality issue..

              Somebody correct me if I am wrong but I dimly recall the Israeli`s having women soldiers in front line positions years ago. If a women got injured, the male soldiers tended to put their own unit/mission in danger trying to protect them. The effect of a women getting a gunshot wound was more traumatic for the guys to witness and combat discipline broke down a little. This was some years ago, I don`t know Israel`s position today but this was the situation as explained to me by a former Israeli reservist.

              Of course, this is a reflection on male characteristics rather than the quality of female recruits. Would be interesting to hear from the girls on the forum for their perspective.

              OoE, does Canada allow women to fight in front-line combat units? Are there women squaddies in Afghanistan now?

              I know women don`t serve on submarines (SSNs) , something to do with the recirculated air and possible foetal damage, according to a recent thread here on WAB.
              The front line issue is moot, I think. A lot of war today is assymetrical. Remember Jessica Lynch? She wasn't on the front line. That didn't really end up mattering.

              I don't like the idea of quotas at all though.
              In Iran people belive pepsi stands for pay each penny save israel. -urmomma158
              The Russian Navy is still a threat, but only to those unlucky enough to be Russian sailors.-highsea

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              • #8
                Originally posted by TIN MAN View Post
                OoE, does Canada allow women to fight in front-line combat units? Are there women squaddies in Afghanistan now?
                Captain Nichola Goddard was killed when doing her FOO job.

                Originally posted by Stan187 View Post
                The front line issue is moot, I think. A lot of war today is assymetrical. Remember Jessica Lynch? She wasn't on the front line. That didn't really end up mattering.
                It is not a moot issue but very much a vital one. Capt Goddard was expected to sit still and direct fire and if need be to stand her ground. She was not expected nor was she able to do house-to-house sweeps or at worst, a bayonet charge to hand-to-hand fighting. No woman IN the world could have done what the SAS has done at Tora Bora - four hours of hand-to-hand fighting.

                Jessica Lynch was expected to drive a truck, at worst to defend her truck which was what she tried to do (and done it extremely badly). Had her convoy got the proper protection section, they would've repulsed the attack.

                That is quite different than having to do house-to-house sweeps in the middle of a firefight, wearing 75 pounds of gear and pretty well doing over 10 miles of running per day. While there are no doubt women who can do this, they can never be any better than the middle of the pack.

                There is another more important thing to consider and one that cannot be overlooked. The CF integrated during peacetime. As a result, we lost alot of good men who simply refused to serve alongside women. The PC crowd would say good riddance to cavemen. However, in my squadron, those good men represented over 60 years of experience. No woman, no matter how fit, no matter how educated, no matter how qualified is worth 60 years experience. Because we've done it in peacetime, we could have tolerated the lost. In fact, we had to. No soldier can ever countermand a command policy.

                We're no longer at peace.

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                • #9
                  OoE, just looked up Captain Goddard and her sad loss in Afghanistan.

                  It seems that her death could have happened to anybody under the same circumstances, male or female, her vehicle took 2 RPG hits.

                  Your points on women actually doing a soldiers job in front line ops` is well taken and reinforces my view that it isn`t good practice to deploy women under certain conditions.
                  "Liberty is a thing beyond all price.

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                  • #10
                    Colonel,

                    I'm speaking theoretically of course, but if a woman can pass and hold her own as one of the guys, as per requirements of her job, why not let her?

                    I understand arguments that one will bring up discipline of troops and what not. But on a pure "can they do it" platform, if they can peform their duty as well as a man, I don't see why it should be problem.

                    I remember reading a story a year or so ago about a woman who was a medic. She was attached to a unit of paratroopers from the 82nd Airborne. She was 6'2'', 175 pounds, a big gal. And she defended herself when necesarry, pulled out soldiers under fire, and what not. She was pretty much part of the platoon, but because of US Army policy, she could only be specially attached to the unit and not be part of it, because she was a woman.
                    In Iran people belive pepsi stands for pay each penny save israel. -urmomma158
                    The Russian Navy is still a threat, but only to those unlucky enough to be Russian sailors.-highsea

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      She's the exception or rather one of the few but if you look through the old threads, for every one of the few, we have 15-20 who just were a waste of time, effort, heartaches, and headaches. USArmy Policy is not trying to prevent that one from succeeding, but rather to prevent that 15-20 from wasting resources.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                        She's the exception or rather one of the few but if you look through the old threads, for every one of the few, we have 15-20 who just were a waste of time, effort, heartaches, and headaches. USArmy Policy is not trying to prevent that one from succeeding, but rather to prevent that 15-20 from wasting resources.
                        I understand, it makes sense. I guess it would be more of an issue if we didn't have lots of qualified people already vying for those spots.

                        I'd be interested to see some empirical approach showing how women would affect group dynamics in combat units one way or the other. But I guess it's hard to make an empirical study due to such a lack of concerete cases as examples.
                        In Iran people belive pepsi stands for pay each penny save israel. -urmomma158
                        The Russian Navy is still a threat, but only to those unlucky enough to be Russian sailors.-highsea

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          It's my understanding that in the British Army, women can serve in Artillery, which puts some of them on the front lines as Observers (which I gather is pretty f-king dangerous but as the Colonel said, not a "hand-to-hand" role), however they're barred from all the Infantry Branches and the Regular units of the Armoured Corps (although they're supposed to be allowed in the TA MBT crews now I think). As for the Army Infantry units, they do a completely separate, all male training program at the Combat Infantryman's Centre, and I'm lead to believe this is to deliberately maintain the "boy's club" mentality that they've found is more effective in their branches.
                          Of course within some units female troops are simply an operational requirement, such as Provost roles, and there's really no arguing that they should be there. Supposedly (DO NOT HOLD ME TO THIS) there's a SOCOM unit called "funny platoon" that is composed of female Ops who do HUMINT work in places where they'd attract a lot less attention than their male counterparts.
                          In a broader sense, while I feel bad for the big tough girls who could indeed pass the reqs and step up on the line with male soldiers, as the Colonel pointed out there's just not enough of them around to justify the expense of filtering out the majority of girls who simply aren't big enough and will not be able to build up the muscle power required of the job. Then there's the fact that in Anglo-European cultures (and indeed most others) women are often as adverse to the idea of their serving in a Military role as men are, so would you even find enough volunteers to make it worthwhile? The other problem with their being rather few in percentage is that you could find entire companies with only a few women in them, which could prove akward and disruptive for both male and female troops in such a unit. At least, that's the case now, in my opinion, whether it will still be true in 50 years is another question entirely.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by ChrisF202 View Post
                            What nations currently allow this?

                            I know Germany recently opened all military occupations except special forces to females. What about like Israel, Switzerland, etc?
                            I believe all the Scandinavian nations have opened all their Military positions to female soldiers over the past few years as well. In their defence, we are talking about Nordic women here, so it's not like they're all small...
                            And France has Line Infantry, Marine, Artillery and Cavalry roles open to women, although I think they're still barred from SF, and of course the Legion.
                            According to the wiki article they only comprise about 2% of Infantry personnel, but I don't know how long they've been open to apply for such roles so I guess it's hard to rate how important that statistic is.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by -{SpoonmaN}- View Post
                              Supposedly (DO NOT HOLD ME TO THIS) there's a SOCOM unit called "funny platoon" that is composed of female Ops who do HUMINT work in places where they'd attract a lot less attention than their male counterparts.
                              Since when have womenfolk attracted LESS attention than their male counterparts?
                              In Iran people belive pepsi stands for pay each penny save israel. -urmomma158
                              The Russian Navy is still a threat, but only to those unlucky enough to be Russian sailors.-highsea

                              Comment

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