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Thread: Those liberals

  1. #1

    Those liberals


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    Quote Originally Posted by Major_Armstrong
    Yea, The same ones that will have to save this country, again. Only After we get rid of this president who "spends money as responsibly as a pot head in an open-all-night grocery store."
    Last edited by nickshepAK; 13 Dec 04, at 22:05.

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    Staff Emeritus Confed999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nickshepAK
    that will have to save this country, again.
    I'll fight socialism.
    Quote Originally Posted by nickshepAK
    "spends money as responsibly as a pot head in an open-all-night grocery store."
    Kerry wanted to add spending, not remove it. The statement above, is the credo of Liberals, it's what they aspire to.
    No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack
    I agree completely with this Administrationís goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
    even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
    He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. Itís the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Confed999
    I'll fight socialism.

    Kerry wanted to add spending, not remove it. The statement above, is the credo of Liberals, it's what they aspire to.
    Not while slashing taxes.

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    Staff Emeritus Confed999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nickshepAK
    Not while slashing taxes.
    You're right, it's their money really. They'll let us have a little, but they can spend the rest much more efficiently than we can. Don't let a tiny tax cut, (Didn't it actually make a little money?) make you believe that a few extra bucks would have offset the current debt.
    No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack
    I agree completely with this Administrationís goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
    even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
    He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. Itís the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry

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    Contributor barrowaj's Avatar
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    I'll stand for socialism, in that the more people that we can provide education and give a chance at life, the more our country stands to benefit. I also believe that socialist democracy will provide a means to protect our environment for future generations.

    Here is my theory on why this is possible:
    Evolution favors survival of an individual based on advantageous traits. Single celled organisms that combined their work into a larger organism found that they could amplify their chances for survival. This process continues to the next stage as well. Since the family unit is integral to the passing on of genes to future generations, evolution also provided mechanisms to ensure the survival of the family (caring for one's family). But since human society is relatively new, it has not yet been able to be shaped by the hand of evolution. Socialism is an ideal society where each person puts in their own work for the good of the group. Since nature evolves to approximate the most desireable ideal, we can see the force of evolution changing mankind and society so that the socialist ideal is acheivable. By normal standards this process would take an excruciatingly long time to begin, at least several tens of thousands of years. However, with the advent of genetic engineering and transhuman technologies, we should be able to accelerate the process on our own.

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    "I'll stand for socialism, in that the more people that we can provide education and give a chance at life, the more our country stands to benefit. I also believe that socialist democracy will provide a means to protect our environment for future generations."

    Socialism is a fools dream. Those that try to implement it are engaged in a fools errand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Confed999
    Don't let a tiny tax cut, (Didn't it actually make a little money?) make you believe that a few extra bucks would have offset the current debt.
    Not so tiny.

    Total Receipts as percent of GDP: 17% (Bush 2004 Est) 19.4% (Clinton Ave)

    Total Outlays as percent of GDP: 19.7% (Bush 2004 Est) 19.6% (Clinton Ave)

    Actually the Bush deficit (2.7% from the above estimate) ended up being 4.7%.

    http://www.taxfoundation.org/2004budgetperspective.html
    Last edited by Broken; 14 Dec 04, at 08:45.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barrowaj
    I'll stand for socialism, in that the more people that we can provide education and give a chance at life, the more our country stands to benefit. I also believe that socialist democracy will provide a means to protect our environment for future generations.

    Here is my theory on why this is possible:

    But since human society is relatively new, it has not yet been able to be shaped by the hand of evolution. Socialism is an ideal society where each person puts in their own work for the good of the group. Since nature evolves to approximate the most desireable ideal, we can see the force of evolution changing mankind and society so that the socialist ideal is acheivable.
    Actually, human society has evolved quite a bit if you look at early civilizations versus current ones.

    I don't think you can look at the evolution of multicellular organisms as a guide to the ideal society for humans. For one thing, cells aren't conscious but humans are (at least we like to think we are). The cells of an organism have very few "rights", little equity, and no democracy.
    Last edited by Broken; 14 Dec 04, at 08:44.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barrowaj
    I'll stand for socialism, in that the more people that we can provide education and give a chance at life, the more our country stands to benefit. I also believe that socialist democracy will provide a means to protect our environment for future generations.

    Here is my theory on why this is possible:
    Evolution favors survival of an individual based on advantageous traits. Single celled organisms that combined their work into a larger organism found that they could amplify their chances for survival. This process continues to the next stage as well. Since the family unit is integral to the passing on of genes to future generations, evolution also provided mechanisms to ensure the survival of the family (caring for one's family). But since human society is relatively new, it has not yet been able to be shaped by the hand of evolution. Socialism is an ideal society where each person puts in their own work for the good of the group. Since nature evolves to approximate the most desireable ideal, we can see the force of evolution changing mankind and society so that the socialist ideal is acheivable. By normal standards this process would take an excruciatingly long time to begin, at least several tens of thousands of years. However, with the advent of genetic engineering and transhuman technologies, we should be able to accelerate the process on our own.
    interesting speculation but it has problems least of which is that survival brings about desirable results?

    there is no obvious connectivity there as desirable is subjective.. if environmental factors including our influence favour survival by atomization of human cultural norms or society then that will occur in a competitive environment. the 'mistake" in your idea is that it infers evolution has some date with a destiny of some sort which is not at all clear... mind you there could be some principle a work but i doubt its socialism?

    Boris
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    Contributor barrowaj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Broken
    Actually, human society has evolved quite a bit if you look at early civilizations versus current ones.

    I don't think you can look at the evolution of multicellular organisms as a guide to the ideal society for humans. For one thing, cells aren't conscious but humans are (at least we like to think we are). The cells of an organism have very few "rights", little equity, and no democracy.
    Society has evolved, but humans have not. As time progresses, humanity will be better evolved to adapt to society.

    Humans and single celled organsims are governed by the same exact principals though. Rights and democracy are simply technologies that we have applied to ourselves in order to better facilitate our own survival. Religion was the original impetus for these rights and morality since it was the most basic societal survival mechanism realized by man. Similarly, single celled organisms continuously evolve on their own, even if they don't have a concious recognition of it.

    To make another parallel, the way modern society functions is much more like the way a complex organ system interoperates than our hunter-gatherer ancestry.
    Last edited by barrowaj; 14 Dec 04, at 13:05.

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    Contributor barrowaj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mididoctors
    interesting speculation but it has problems least of which is that survival brings about desirable results?

    there is no obvious connectivity there as desirable is subjective.. if environmental factors including our influence favour survival by atomization of human cultural norms or society then that will occur in a competitive environment. the 'mistake" in your idea is that it infers evolution has some date with a destiny of some sort which is not at all clear... mind you there could be some principle a work but i doubt its socialism?

    Boris
    london
    You have to assume that the animals that survived were equipped with the more desirable characteristics to withstand the evolutionary stress.

    You are right that if environmental factors influence survival by atomization of culture than we will evolve toward that. But I think that it is pretty easy to demonstrate that in theory, at least, a socialist society would be more productive, and hence have a better chance at survival. Just how single celled organisms combined to form multicellular ones, I see human society doing the same. However, humans up until this point have not evolved to do so, but since I see the latter as having better natural fitness, I think that we will evolve towards that.

    On the same note, I can't find any natural evidence that would demonstrate how the atomization of human society would improve chances for survival.

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    Dirty Kiwi Senior Contributor
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    Quote Originally Posted by barrowaj
    Socialism is an ideal society where each person puts in their own work for the good of the group. .
    the whole 'battle' between capitalism and socialism is finding the balance between working for yourself and working for the group. each is advantageous to the individual. working for the group promotes stability within society by providing health education defense etc. working for yourself promotes your individual wellbeing and that of your dependants and neither can exist without the other, it's finding the balance that is the key. and remember, a solution that works in one place and time may not work in another.

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    Military Professional Ray's Avatar
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    Parihaka,

    I don't understand economics or finance.

    Sweden is a high socialist state I believe. How come they are doing so well? I ask since I find that everyone here decries the same.

    And the citizens, I believe, are happy!

    What's the secret?

    Even UK is highly socialist and they are doing very well compared to the EU.

    I sure want to know what's up since we (India) are moving away from socialism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barrowaj
    You have to assume that the animals that survived were equipped with the more desirable characteristics to withstand the evolutionary stress.

    You are right that if environmental factors influence survival by atomization of culture than we will evolve toward that. But I think that it is pretty easy to demonstrate that in theory, at least, a socialist society would be more productive, and hence have a better chance at survival. Just how single celled organisms combined to form multicellular ones, I see human society doing the same. However, humans up until this point have not evolved to do so, but since I see the latter as having better natural fitness, I think that we will evolve towards that.

    On the same note, I can't find any natural evidence that would demonstrate how the atomization of human society would improve chances for survival.
    thats not the point i was making...


    the point is desirable has two meanings here...

    desirable to survival may not=pleasent in social terms but then there is nothing to say it may not not!


    warlord and gangster societies after a collapse of society require survival by anti social means... eg somalia post 30 yrs war etc etc ... it is interesting to note these are temporary in nature and society does tend to recover with-in a generation


    Boris
    london
    Last edited by mididoctors; 14 Dec 04, at 19:45.

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