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**FibrillatorD** · 18 Aug 07,, 10:26

Great links

**wkllaw** · 19 Aug 07,, 13:38

This story's pretty old and people think too much about a few hundred casualties. However it is a pity that people all over the world forget incidents where hundreds or thousands die and there's never something that comes close to the extravagance of tiananmen remembrance.

**Ucar** · 20 Aug 07,, 09:10

Originally posted by wkllaw View Post

This story's pretty old and people think too much about a few hundred casualties. However it is a pity that people all over the world forget incidents where hundreds or thousands die and there's never something that comes close to the extravagance of tiananmen remembrance.

The great reaction from worldwide public groups resulted not because of "a few hundred casualties" -although that alone is more than enough-, but because of the way military instruments were used to suppress public demonstrations. Rolling tanks over unarmed civilians to suppress their protests is likely to draw as much public protest for many monre years to comen.

World opinion is selective and limited by the events that are avaible to the general public. However, when tanks roll through civilan filled squares, the reaction is more or less the same. Do not try to diminish the significance, and the and the importance of the Tiananmen Square events. How many deaths does it take to make en event imporatant ? Deaths of a million or more ????

**~~Enzo Ferrari~~** · 20 Aug 07,, 12:10

Originally posted by wkllaw View Post

This story's pretty old and people think too much about a few hundred casualties. However it is a pity that people all over the world forget incidents where hundreds or thousands die and there's never something that comes close to the extravagance of tiananmen remembrance.

Some retard Chinese really think without the suppression, today China will not have such "Economic Miracle" too...

**wkllaw** · 20 Aug 07,, 13:49

Originally posted by Ucar View Post

The great reaction from worldwide public groups resulted not because of "a few hundred casualties" -although that alone is more than enough-, but because of the way military instruments were used to suppress public demonstrations. Rolling tanks over unarmed civilians to suppress their protests is likely to draw as much public protest for many monre years to comen.

World opinion is selective and limited by the events that are avaible to the general public. However, when tanks roll through civilan filled squares, the reaction is more or less the same. Do not try to diminish the significance, and the and the importance of the Tiananmen Square events. How many deaths does it take to make en event imporatant ? Deaths of a million or more ????

I agree it is a important event, however I'm just saying it is a shame world opinion is so selective that they forget so many incidences that deserve to be remembered for. If you compare the people related to tiananmen and the people related to other incidences then you can see that most incidents of people don't get anywhere near the level of attention they get.

**~~tony6623~~** · 20 Aug 07,, 15:29

as a participator, I was a college student in the third grade at that time.

in fact, I really do not know what students asked for including me when we walked on street to protest against government. we just expressed a kind of unsatisfied feeling to government.

now I have realized I was childish to do such thing at that time. almost all my college class mate have the same idea as me about the event.

we should never forget mistakes we had made in the event. but I think it is unnecessary for us to continue to cling tightly to the event.

**Officer of Engineers** · 20 Aug 07,, 15:33

Mark my words. The idea of Responsible Government was born at that terrible event. China is forever changed because of it.

**Zeng** · 22 Aug 07,, 01:29

^^^
Enzo Ferrari, Excellent links.

Officer of Engineers, Excellent observation.

I was also a participator as a college student in Beijing. From April 15, the first large scale demonstration to June 5 morning, we finally were forced to leave Tiananmen Square; I joined most of the demonstrations. After we left Tiananmen Square, there was a rumor that PLA will come into school to implement the Martial Law. We jumped on a train and escaped to a friend’s home in the countryside. But PLA never came into school and school sent letters to us later to ask us go back school in the new semester. So, we took train back my hometown. A little bit luck for me was that I got a girl friend at that time and she is my wife now.

Looking back the event today, we should realize that it was a tragedy and it was a dark period of our history. We, especially we Chinese should never forget it. It was/is/will be very important for Chinese to remember it and review it time and time again. It deserves a huge Monument in Beijing although the right time may have not come yet. I am 100% sure that there will be one in the future. We need to lean what led to that tragedy and how to avoid its repetition.

We need to thank those students and Beijing citizens who paid their lives or jail times for their dreams of pursuing a better China although their actions were immature and they might be misled by some people for their political gains. Those people presented their spirit of responsibility toward China. That is the Chinese spirit of pushing for everlasting changing and reforming. It was a tragedy but China learned lessons from it. The blood didn’t totally waste. Wish the desisted have peace in the heaven and those jailed people get back to their normal lives.

For those who escaped to other countries and started to sell their souls for the money, we should despise their later actions in abroad but still give them credits for what they did during that tragic period of time.

Gorbachev visited Beijing in the middle of the Beijing’s demonstrations. Trainman Square was occupied by students and he has to come into the great people’s hall from back door. What an embarrassment for Gorbachev and Deng XP?

Comparing to Soviet, we should feel lucky and deserve to be proud. Two years later, a powerful Soviet collapsed, while a much weaker China didn’t go back and didn’t rush to a sudden change even after such a dramatic and tragic event. China made improvements and continued its course. The results are that Russia experienced many years of decline and China experienced many years of growth. China changed from a country selling oil and natural resource for foreign currency to one buying oil and natural resource from allover the world. We might not get the best leaders we want but thank god, we didn’t get the worst leaders like Gorbachev and Yeltsin who tore their country apart.

Some past discussion on this tragic event:

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/cur...we-care-3.html

**TopHatter** · 22 Aug 07,, 02:00

Originally posted by tony6623 View Post

we should never forget mistakes we had made in the event. but I think it is unnecessary for us to continue to cling tightly to the event.

"The nail that sticks up gets hammered down"?

**wkllaw** · 22 Aug 07,, 02:38

Looking back the event today, we should realize that it was a tragedy and it was a dark period of our history. We, especially we Chinese should never forget it. It was/is/will be very important for Chinese to remember it and review it time and time again. It deserves a huge Monument in Beijing although the right time may have not come yet. I am 100% sure that there will be one in the future. We need to lean what led to that tragedy and how to avoid its repetition.

First I have to say I admire your high quality posts and the time you spend on it, what you say is generally knowledgeable and I sometimes learn something from your posts.

Sir, while I believe it is a time chinese people shouldn't forget, but do you think the hold on information the CCP has will distance the youth and next generation more and more from the event and when the event is finally revealed will it have little to no impact on the chinese people?

**Officer of Engineers** · 22 Aug 07,, 04:41

Originally posted by Zeng_xinren View Post

Officer of Engineers, Excellent observation.

Don't make too much of the observation. Only the idea is born, not the practice which is a whole different thing. Responsible government at times mean doing things the people do not like - crushing the student movement is one of them.

It does not mean the CCP has it right - the corruption is an indication that they have it wrong. It also does not mean the People have it right - the blatant robber baron attitude is all wrong.

But what it does mean is that both the government and the people realize that they depend on each other. How does that work will take at least 100 years to work out and some of those years will be extremely bloody.

**Zeng** · 23 Aug 07,, 01:47

Originally posted by wkllaw View Post

First I have to say I admire your high quality posts and the time you spend on it, what you say is generally knowledgeable and I sometimes learn something from your posts.

Sir, while I believe it is a time chinese people shouldn't forget, but do you think the hold on information the CCP has will distance the youth and next generation more and more from the event and when the event is finally revealed will it have little to no impact on the chinese people?

First, thanks for your compliment. These are some of the topics of our weekend beer talk among the friends. I got lot valuable inputs from them.

In fact, I found that all our Chinese here made some high quality knowledgeable posts. Besides mainland Chinese, astralis constantly make high quality knowledgeable posts on China’s social issues. Ray frequently makes very intelligent comments on Chinese issues but once a while with a little bit of bias. Many others also made high quality knowledgeable posts about China.

CCP holds the information on this event from public is because they know exactly how important it is. It is really not the good time to open that scar while most people who were deeply involved in that event are still around. In that tragic event, no one behaved perfectly, both people and government made mistakes. Open that scar today will only create public prosecution on the government to make an already not so stable situation even more unstable. Will the people or government benefit from the unstable situation? Probably not.

The crushing of the student demonstration was necessary at that time after nearly two months of occupation of Tiananmen Square. But the legitimacy of the Martial Law as well as the using of deadly military force in that situation is questionable. If that scar is opened today, no one can defend shooting students. Some people have to take the responsibility.

Can we prosecute those people today without a chaotic fight? Probably not because there are many of them can be linked to that event and can be prosecuted while some of them are still powerful.

Do we want to prosecute those people today while iron fist may still be necessary for our unstable immature society? Probably not for the near future.

Therefore, the best we can do today is to conciliate. Keep that event in our heart. The world was never a fair one. Those who dead and jailed in that event will not get their deserved official honor in the near future.

But we don’t need to worry that people will forget that event. In fact, only time will tell the true importance of that event. 1 year after that event, we only think about revenging and prosecuting those who ordered shooting, 10 years later, we start thinking about the causes that led to that event. 20 years later, we will think about how China escaped the fate of Soviet in 1991. 50 years later, when all people directly involved in that event pass away, we may look at that event in a different way. 100 years later, we may start to learn the true value of this historic event on the Chinese history.

We didn’t forget the value of “54 movement” that is much older and we will not forget the lesson of “64 event”.

**Zeng** · 23 Aug 07,, 02:00

Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post

Don't make too much of the observation. Only the idea is born, not the practice which is a whole different thing. Responsible government at times mean doing things the people do not like - crushing the student movement is one of them.

It does not mean the CCP has it right - the corruption is an indication that they have it wrong. It also does not mean the People have it right - the blatant robber baron attitude is all wrong.

But what it does mean is that both the government and the people realize that they depend on each other. How does that work will take at least 100 years to work out and some of those years will be extremely bloody.

Never thought and claimed that China was/is/will be achieving progress easily and shortly.

We treasure every our step, right or wrong. That was one of the huge historic events in our recent history and we can learn more from it. That is why I said that we should remember and review it time and time again to give our own understanding and interpretations on that fateful event as the time goes along.

The blatant robber baron attitude and the incompetent government (corruption, chaos) will not devalue the event just like it didn’t devalue the French revolution although these two events may not be a good comparison.

China learned an idea of Responsible Government through that tragedy. In my opinion, it was a huge progress no matter how you look at it.

I don’t expect China improves in short time for anything, not economy, not politics, not corruption, not pollution, not poor-rich cleavage, not social network.

I don’t even expect China always progresses in the right direction. It is totally possible for us to have more bloody events waiting ahead, which makes the past bloody events even more precious lessons.

**Ray** · 23 Aug 07,, 02:47

Zeng,

Here is another interesting development in China.

Because I presume foreign telecasts can be seen in China, I saw a BBC report where the relatives of the miners in the mine disaster going on a rampage smashing billboards glasspanes etc.

The spokesman was very angry that while the mine authorities and the govt were not informing them about the situation, they were learning of the same from foreign TV channels.

I wonder if this could have been feasible in Mao's time?

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