Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

New German Frigates

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • New German Frigates

    Any thoughts on this warship?

    Thoughts on comparison to the smaller Type 124?


    Budget Committee Approves Procurement of Four Frigates of the Class 125

    BERLIN --- The budget committee of the German Federal Parliament (Bundestag), in its current meeting, approved the conclusion of a contract for the construction, building and supply of four frigates of the class 125.

    The Type 125 frigate (F 125) differs substantially from the existing frigates and is intended as a substantial component for the new armed forces category of the stabilization forces.

    The F 125 is intended for multinational and joint military operations in the end of the spectrum of peace-stabilizing measures appropriate to middle intensity and long duration.

    Apart from maritime stabilization operations, the F125 is particularly suited for defense against asymmetrical threats, tactical fire support of troops ashore, the support of special forces and the support of evacuation operations. The F125 thus constitutes a substantial step in the transformation of the German Federal Armed Forces, and the navy’s reorientation.

    With a comparatively small crew of approximately 120 men, the F125 will be able to fulfill this broad mission spectrum thanks to consistent technical innovations and a design based on the intensive use concept.

    According to present plans, the four F 125 frigates will enter service in the middle of the next decade.

    The main contractor is the BAD F 125 consortium, consisting of the companies ThyssenKrupp Naval Systems and Friedrich Luerssen Werft shipyards. The participation of Peene-Werft shipyard in the manufacturing phase a been agreed.

    The F125 project contributes considerably to the maintaining military engineering core abilities in Germany and will secures approx. 500 jobs in direct manufacturing, as well as a further 300 jobs in supporting industry.

    The portion of the orders intended for German-based companies is 87 % of the complete order value.

    http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi...4&modele=jdc_1

    From:

    F125 class frigate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Preliminary Specifications
    (Note that the final design may differ.)

    Length: 150m
    Beam: 18 m
    Draft: 5 m
    Displacement: around 6800t
    Propulsion: CODLAG
    1 20MW gas turbine
    2 4.7MW electric motors
    4 2.9MW diesel generators
    3 gearboxes: 2 for each shaft and one to crossconnect the gasturbines to them.
    2 shafts, driving controllable pitch propellers
    Speed: 20kts on diesel only, 26—27kts max.
    Range: 4000nm
    1 1MW bow thruster
    Sensors:
    1 Phased array radar
    2(?) navigation radars
    IFF mode S
    Sonar
    Laser warning
    FL1800S ESM suite
    Communications: Link 11, Link 16, Link 22
    Countermeasures:
    4 Decoy launchers
    ECM
    Armament:
    8 anti-ship missiles, either RGM-84 Harpoon or RBS 15 Mk4
    VLS Mk.41 48-cell launcher (SM-2 and ESSM [Evolved Sea Sparrow Missile] or Tomahawk's)
    2 RAM surface-to-air missile launcher/CIWS, 21 cells each
    1 127 mm lightweight Otobreda naval gun
    4 27 mm MLG 27 autocannon
    5 12.7 mm Hitrole-NT remote-controlled machine gun turrets
    2 12.7 mm heavy machine guns (manually controlled)
    Water cannons
    Other equipment:
    2 search lights
    Submarine ROVs
    4 11 m dinghies, over 40kts fast
    Space for two 6.1 m container
    Hangar facility: 2 MH-90 helicopters
    Complement: 160 (including 50 KSK/commando)

    Type 124:

    Sachsen class frigate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Specifications
    Length: 143.0 m
    Beam: 17.44 m
    Draft: 5.0 m
    Tonnage: 5,690 tons
    Propulsion: combined diesel and gas system
    2 propeller shafts, controllable pitch propellers
    2 MTU V20 diesel engines, 7.4MW each
    1 General Electric LM2500 gas turbine,
    2 Renk ASM 195 F gearboxes (for the diesel engines)
    1 Renk AS 2/290 gearbox (gas turbine and cross connection)
    4 1000kW Deutz 16/628 diesel-generators
    Range: 4000+ nautical miles at 18kts, 21 days endurance
    Maximum Speed: 29kts (18kts on diesels alone)
    Sensors:
    2 STN Atlas 9600-M multi-function I/J band ARPA radars
    1 Thales Nederland SMART-L long-range air and surface surveillance radar
    1 Thales Nederlands APAR air and surface search, tracking and guidance radar (I band)
    1 Thales Sirius IRST long-range infrared surveillance and tracking system (fitted for but not with)
    1 STN Atlas MSP 500 electro-optical fire control system
    1 STN Atlas DSQS-24B bow sonar
    Countermeasures:
    1 FL 1800 S II ECM suite
    6 Sippican Hycor SRBOC launcher
    Communication: Link 16 and Link 11
    Armament:
    1 vertical launch system with 32 cells for 32 ESSM (4 per cell) and 24 SM-2 IIIA surface-to-air missiles
    2 RAM launchers with 21 surface-to-air/CIWS-missiles each
    2 quadruple Harpoon anti-ship missile launcher
    1 OTO-Melara 76 mm dual-purpose gun
    2 Mauser MLG 27 27 mm autocannons (replacing Rheinmetall Rh-202 cannons)
    2 triple torpedo launchers with EuroTorp MU90 Impact torpedo
    Hangar for 2 Sea Lynx Mk.88A or 2 NH90 helicopters
    Endurance: 3 weeks
    Complement: 230+13

  • #2
    That's an awfully big frigate!!!
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

    Comment


    • #3
      almost as big as a type 45, thats not a frigate, perhaps the germans classify destroyers as frigates? I know the French do that
      ROAD WARRIOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
      sigpic

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by rickusn View Post
        Any thoughts on this warship?
        Thoughts on comparison to the smaller Type 124?
        Oh, where to begin...

        First off: Yes, Germany doesn't designate any ships as destroyers anymore - for political reasons mostly i figure. If we'd go by Italian or Indian standards (or the French Escorteur d'Esquadre frigate/destroyer designation), all ships of the (4900 ton) F123, (5700 ton) F124 and (6800 ton) F125 classes would be Destroyers. However, since the F123 fills a primary frigate role (general-purpose with ASW leaning), it's correct to call it a frigate. The F124 however already fills a classic destroyer role (AAW).

        The F125, now, don't really have the weapons outfit necessary for a destroyer. The information on wikipedia there is... blotchy. I should check that article a bit more often, i remember that i still had it in good order two weeks ago.
        Size, endurance and powerpack are confirmed, due to a TKMS press release (btw, length is down to 143 meters). Add 30 for the helos to the crew btw, planned complement is 100-120 crew + 30 aircrew + 50 infantry.

        Weapons, not confirmed. Out of that list from wikipedia, the following two things are rumours only: VLS (and anything that goes in it) and sonar. Yes, seriously, it's yet to be decided if it gets a sonar at all, or a AAW capability.

        SSM is decided - it's both of them . The ships will first re-use the Harpoons from the F122 (two quad launchers). Later on, they will be replaced by the "new standard missile" (which currently is planned to be RBS-15 Mk3/Mk4; F124 will probably be refitted at some point too, especially since Harpoon Block 1C will no longer be supported sometime around the end of next decade). The RAM launchers, MLG27 and MASS decoy launchers will all be transferred from the F122, so these are pretty much fixed as well. 127mm/64 Vulcano and Hitrole-NT are already bought, so those too.

        The F125 will fill a completely different role from the F124 or any other ship in the German Navy. If at all, we're finally seeing a defined specialization:
        - 5x K130 for general patrol
        - 4x F123 for ASW + taskforce leader
        - 3x F124 for AAW + taskforce leader
        - 4x F125 for peacekeeping (see below)

        the 8x F122 that the 4x F125 replace fitted both general (ocean) patrol and ASW, and are used as "workhorses" for taskforces.

        Now, to say a bit about the role of the F125:

        The F125 will be used on peacekeeping missions (like, say, UNIFIL, or OEF). For this, they will be specially built to perform continuous 2-year missions, meaning they can stay in theater 4 times as long as any other German ship regularly (this is accomplished by high automation, low maintenance cycles, and a concept that exchanges the entire crew for a fresh fully trained one every 6 months).

        The F125 are built to:

        - perform independent patrols of a certain ZoC (including with helicopters)
        - escort civilian shipping against pirates and similar light-armed/-equipped groups
        - act as a mothership/baseship for commando groups that perform checks on civilian shipping
        - provide naval gunfire support (this role has gone down a lot from initial planning)
        - intercept civilian shipping (including with non-lethal effectors)
        - surface strike action (continuous role for all German capital ships)
        - keep full-spectrum self-defence during the above (except for ASW)

        Anything else, not in the books.

        Comment


        • #5
          aah, didnt know the VLS wasnt confirmed, sry, if it does have VLS, it will be more of a general purpose ship, which is the direction destroyers seem to be going
          ROAD WARRIOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
          sigpic

          Comment


          • #6
            Thanks Kato.

            Its interesting that four ships will replace eight.

            And no sonar, ala Frances Lafayette class, on a ship earmarked for independent ops is very risky IMHO.

            And a ship this size, again IMHO, should have an AREA AIR DEFENSE SYSTEM but that would make the ship very costly no doubt.

            Both a top-line sonar suite and AAW suite would be expensive to maintain and operate(ie would drive up crewing requirements) in addition to being expensive to outfit the ships with.

            Still.....

            I havent seen much about this new ship.

            Kato please keep us informed on developments.
            Last edited by rickusn; 30 Jun 07,, 11:35.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by rickusn View Post
              Its interesting that four ships will replace eight.
              Yeah, a lot of ppl tend to... well, ***** about that. Seriously though, there were originally only six F122 planned as well, replacing six old escort frigates (which replaced six destroyer escorts). The other two were built with leftover money, and never really were part of the intended navy line-up. Hence it's really only a reduction of planning in ship numbers by a third, not that bad.
              If the F125 actually holds true to its promises (2 years continuous mission time in-theater), we pretty much need a third less hulls for the same job, roughly. Currently, each unit spends roughly 30-40% of her time on missions. For the F125, this is intended to go to 60-80%. The auxiliaries already go above 40% mission time, which is rather stressful on the crews.
              For the F125, therefore, in addition to high automation and low maintenance cycles, this is aided by new crew concepts, a rather important part in extending mission time. One of these concepts is to switch out the crew while on a mission, while not bringing the ship back. This is currently being tested on two FACs in UNIFIL, and so far they seem to be holding up. The second concept is to train the intended crews "dry", that is partly on land, in simulators and on real equipment (that's why they bought a complete fifth 127mm Vulcano turret).

              Originally posted by rickusn View Post
              And no sonar, ala Frances Lafayette class, on a ship earmarked for independent ops is very risky IMHO.
              They won't operate independently. Their primary operational use will be within taskforces, on missions similar to UNIFIL, OEF, or the Gibraltar Straits Escort missions. Since the F125 aren't outfitted with staff/command facilities however, in a German-only taskforce they'll always have a F123 or F124 along (well, or a suitable ship from an Allied nation). Say a OEF-style mission with one F124 and two F125 in the taskforce, like that.
              The F123 will receive a variable-depth sonar with their MLU (one is already outfitted, for testing) plus 32 ESSM, and will take over the primary ASW role in the navy. Hence you would pair a F125 with a F123 if you have a ASW thread in the area. Or, if you have a primary air thread, pair the F125 with a F124. By themselves, they would probably only operate in very fixed scenarios, like the Straits of Gibraltar (where several FACs, along with a few allied corvettes and FPVs controlled and escorted civilian shipping through the straits for awhile). In that case, they had the necessary support from the shoreside.

              Originally posted by rickusn View Post
              And a ship this size, again IMHO, should have an AREA AIR DEFENSE SYSTEM but that would make the ship very costly no doubt.
              Both a top-line sonar suite and AAW suite would be expensive to maintain and operate(ie would drive up crewing requirements) in addition to being expensive to outfit the ships with.
              It is already costly. $900 million earmarked per unit, with the current exchange rate. Pretty much everyone who sees that price says "well, they better come with the VLS, all missiles, sonar and some hidden goodies installed then".

              The final outfit of the ship is undecided, because they managed to pull a different contract this time: Instead of during the concept/design phase, outfit is being decided during the follow-up construction phase pretty much. So they pretty much only have a requirement set (CODLAG propulsion, rough size, non-lethal effectors, primary roles), and a set of available-to-be-used equipment (anything they can pull off the F122 plus the 127mm guns and Hitrole-NT remote-controlled guns already bought).

              Most people doubt that they'll get VLS. Sonar, most likely yeah, but the VLS would be a big cost decision (for the builders, since they now pretty much have a fixed-cost contract!). Could go into the requirements still, but i doubt that. Presumably fitted-for-but-not-with. Or, my preference, a 8- or 16-cell VLS with "growth potential" to 32-48, and only fitted with ESSM for now.

              Comment


              • #8
                India should definitely look in to these frigates as they were looking to buy 7-8 latest tech frigates for $ 8-9 billion dollars. German ships are worldclass. The price for which these frigates were procured it seems it would fit in Indian budget. What do you think guys.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Dunno that they wont do independent ops particualrly if they are as you say going to be deployed fpr two years using crew swap-outs.:

                  Heres some quotes from you.:

                  "perform independent patrols of a certain ZoC (including with helicopters)"

                  "they will be specially built to perform continuous 2-year missions, meaning they can stay in theater 4 times as long as any other German ship regularly ..."

                  Yes and did forget to take in account of the crew swap-outs regarding force levels.

                  Interestlingly the USN appears to have rejected, for the time being anyway, further crew swaps.

                  Its because, Im lead to understand, more costly than first envisioned, maintenace suffered(although you wont hear that officially) and in the long run regardelss of how many crews you have a ship can only be in one place at a time, that may be fine for peace-time or for SSBNs but any war scenario would quicly show the inherent riskiness/fallacies of the concept.

                  At nearly 7000 tons full load I still cant see the purpose of building such a large surface combatant type vessel w/o VLS and a state of the art sonar and AAW suite.

                  Except again because of cost constraints.

                  Although the size may derive from the original thought of putting a 6" gun on the vessel.

                  Or does my memory fail me?

                  This strikes me as very strange.:

                  "The final outfit of the ship is undecided, because they managed to pull a different contract this time: Instead of during the concept/design phase, outfit is being decided during the follow-up construction phase pretty much."

                  And I cant really imagine that there could be much useful equipment from the older frigates.:

                  "...and a set of available-to-be-used equipment (anything they can pull off the F122 ..."

                  Cant wait to find out more specifics on this new German offering and how they actually intend to use it.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by rickusn View Post
                    Dunno that they wont do independent ops particualrly if they are as you say going to be deployed fpr two years using crew swap-outs.:
                    All recent missions of the type that the F125 might get involved in used taskforces, mostly with at least 3-5+ larger ships with varied capabilities.
                    Even in those missions were the naval side only consisted of two or three FACs and a tender (specifically: escort duty and sea control in straits of Gibraltar), these were missions where there was backup from shoreside. Fighter jets for the AAW angle, MPAs for the ASW angle.
                    In UNIFIL, Germany regular deploys a F122 together with a F123. In OEF, German F122s and F123s were backed up by USN Arleigh Burkes and French and British destroyers.

                    The main problem for German ships in these taskforces wasn't a lack of protection or anything like that, but mostly:
                    - crowded accomodations (pretty much all ships)
                    - bad seakeeping (for the smaller units)
                    - bad keeping in warm, salty water (since German ships were primarily constructed for the North Sea)
                    - lack of usable equipment for sea control (existing ships can't carry anything larger than a small RIB, and the FACs as the next-smallest unit are too big for boarding ops)
                    - some supposed problems in communications, mostly to create a complete theater overview (hence the MLU for the F122 and F123 involving new C3 systems with Link 16).

                    Originally posted by rickusn View Post
                    Although the size may derive from the original thought of putting a 6" gun on the vessel.
                    Not really; the initial numbers were "around 5000 tons" (in line with F123), then it rapidly grew to 5600 tons (in line with F124), then 6000 tons, and now 6800 tons.

                    Originally posted by rickusn View Post
                    And I cant really imagine that there could be much useful equipment from the older frigates.:
                    "...and a set of available-to-be-used equipment (anything they can pull off the F122 ..."
                    Cant wait to find out more specifics on this new German offering and how they actually intend to use it.
                    Mostly the weapons. Potentially the FL-1800S ESM system of the F122 could also be reused, as that's still the same system pretty much. Doubt that though somewhat.

                    Under current speculation, the F125 class will re-use from F122:
                    - Harpoon (Block 1C) quad launchers, with missiles
                    - MLG27 27mm remote-controlled guns
                    - MASS decoy launchers (some transferred, some new)
                    - RAM 21-cell launchers, with missiles
                    plus the electronics associated with these systems and the helicopters of course. And the two manual M2HB in the outline will presumably also be the same units that are currently mounted on the F122, but that's hardly worth it.
                    There's also some speculation that only the four oldest F122 will be decommissioned at first btw. The only F122 weapons (4 F122 -> 4 F125) that will not be transferred will be the Mk29 SeaSparrow launchers and the Mk32 (iirc) torpedo tubes.

                    The reuse of the above systems has always been "decided" to some extent. The only other weapons in the original proposal were Naval GMLRS and MONARC, plus the 12.7mm remote-controlled guns. No VLS or any AAW either.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Thanks Kato.

                      However I still remain sceptical that they wont be used independently for the reasons mentioned in your own quotes which you appear to have ignored in your explanation.:

                      ""perform independent patrols of a certain ZoC (including with helicopters)""

                      ""they will be specially built to perform continuous 2-year missions, meaning they can stay in theater 4 times as long as any other German ship regularly ..."

                      The below makes perfect sense if they are going to reuse items off of the older frigates and then the other four newest retired as the new ships are commissioned.:

                      "There's also some speculation that only the four oldest F122 will be decommissioned at first btw."

                      And I still dont see where the size growth is justified by an logical reasoning.

                      "Not really; the initial numbers were "around 5000 tons" (in line with F123),then it rapidly grew to 5600 tons (in line with F124), then 6000 tons, and now 6800 tons."

                      Why? If no VLS or state-of-the-art AAW sensor suite?

                      I could see the justification if the design had been drafted to accomadate the 155mm gum as 5000tons would be far too small to provide a useful 6" shell magazine.

                      Or even to have a comparable AAW weapon/sensor suite like the F124.

                      I dont think the ability to house 50 infantry would drive the size that much but maybe.

                      Like I said I havent read much about this ship.

                      Hopefully I will come across more info soon to answer my questions.

                      Thats not to mention to disparage your helpful information and insights.

                      As they are much appreciated.

                      I just remain somewhat confused on the role and mission of these ships as it regards their size, sensor and weapon fit.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by rickusn View Post
                        I dont think the ability to house 50 infantry would drive the size that much but maybe.
                        I think the size in this case is mostly mandated by what they're trying to fit topside (behind each other!).

                        From stern to bow, that is, behind each other on the same deck:
                        - stern bulwark with helo deck for heavy helo above
                        - hangar for heavy helos
                        - bay for 33ft-RHIB (#1) or similar on davits
                        - a few meters for equipment inbetween
                        - bay for 33ft-RHIB (#2) or similar on davits
                        - main superstructure (bridge etc)
                        - deckhouse for RAM
                        - forward weapon "deckhouse"
                        - 127mm gun
                        - bow
                        That forward weapon "deckhouse" was originally a placeholder for GMLRS (which would have put a 8-meter-long launcher plus it's cleared movement space there!), and is also the primary source for the VLS rumours, since four to six 8-cell Mk41 would fit in that place.
                        Above the #1 bays, the rear mast starts and the SSMs are placed, Between/Above the #2 bays on either side is also the space for the the two planned containers, which would contain equipment for the embarked troops.

                        Gotta have a certain length to even fit the above. The RHIB bays take up a lot of "extra" length. One B+V CG also shows only one bay on each side, for that reason probably. The ship also has to have a certain overall beam, just to fit the two-spot helo deck and the hangar for two helos side-by-side. And then, you need a certain draft for general seakeeping/stability really, and to avoid excessive rolling.

                        With the full four RHIB bays and the above equipment placed that way, you can't really put the length below 130-140 meters. The beam of 18 meters is about minimum for two 10-ton helo spots on the flight deck. And 4.5 to 5 meters should be the minimum for a halfway stable ocean-going ship (plus, you still need to fit the propulsion in there height-wise!). Meaning you need to go with a minimum around 5600-5800 tons with that desired equipment, and you'll probably get a ship with topweight problems and poor stability.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Thanks again Kato.

                          Here is what I was talking about.:

                          MONARC

                          German 155 mm/52 MONARC

                          "There was some possibility that the F125 class of frigates currently being designed would use MONARC. However, an article in the April 2007 issue of MarineForum MarineForum - Zeitschrift für maritime Fragen said that adapting all of the equipment in the PzH 2000 turret for the corrosive naval environment proved more difficult than expected and that it appears that MONARC has been dropped from the F125 plans. A press release by Finmeccanica dated 04 April 2007 announced that OTO Melara had been awarded a contract to arm the F125 class with the more conventional OTO-Melara 127 mm LW mounting. This announcement would seem to signal the end of the MONARC program."

                          "The beam of 18 meters is about minimum for two 10-ton helo spots on the flight deck."

                          The 20m beam of the Burke IIA doesnt have two side by side helo spots. I cant imagine this ship does.

                          And you do say this:

                          "stern bulwark with helo deck for heavy helo above" Note: singular

                          But the Burke IIA do have dual hangers as do the 14m beamed OHP frigates.

                          And the SH 60 B a 10 ton class helo has rotor diameter of over 16m.

                          So Im guessing you meant the "about minimum" beam relates to the dual- hanger.

                          But all of your other points are well taken as to length.

                          Still in all the full load displacement seems quite high but maybe Im just not envisioning the ship correctly.

                          By chance you got a link to a drawing or some such ? Or even a link to the parameters you are quoting?

                          It would be most helpful and appreciative.

                          Thanks again.

                          Rick
                          Last edited by rickusn; 01 Jul 07,, 14:23.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by rickusn View Post
                            By chance you got a link to a drawing or some such ? Or even a link to the parameters you are quoting?
                            The official pic on TKMS website, still with MONARC:


                            The CG that TKMS released with the official press release of the order:


                            A version by TKMS/B+V that only has one RHIB bay on each side, and 127mm Vulcano mounted (commonly seen as the export version):

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Thanks Kato I had forgotten all about the PIC I saw with the ordering article.

                              Silly me.

                              And then so I was close when I thought the design might in part be influenced by the addition of a 155mm gun.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X