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  • #61
    Originally posted by kato View Post
    Due to a little industry deal with Norway, the Navy will switch its Standard Anti-Ship/Land-Attack Missile programme from RBS-15 over to NSM - and like with RBS-15 not the current model but an upgraded version. Beginning with MKS180 will be retrofitted to all frigates.
    Requirements for NSM upgrade from German Navy side:
    • 300 km range (NSM: 185 km)
    • 3D waypoint navigation; full 3D terminal evasive maneuvering
    • scalable warhead and capability to set precision strike point within larger target
    • sea and land targets with all weather and reattack capability
    • ESM hardened

    Most of the above requirements (except range and warhead) are derived to mirror capabilities of RBS15 Mk3.
    • Deployment of the missile is planned on F124, F125 and MKS180 (i.e. 11-13 ships with it).
    • F123 is currently being switched over to Harpoon 1C (replacing Exocet MM38) and will retain these until decommissioning.
    • Second batch K130 will receive RBS15 Mk3 like the first batch (i.e. 10 ships with it).


    In other missile news:
    • F124 and MKS180 will also receive ESSM Block 2 from 2024, mostly because the current Block 1 on F124 will expire in 2025.
    • RAM is being upgraded to Block 2B, with a new stabilized FPA IR seeker and missile-to-missile datalinks. For the German Navy will replace Block 1A in 2023.
    • The Navy is currently looking into mounting some RAM launchers on AORs. The Berlin class is by design prepared for an installation in which two 21-cell RAM would replace two of the four MLG27 27mm guns, although i'm not sure whether it's also technically prepared for it.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by kato View Post
      Requirements for NSM upgrade from German Navy side:
      • 300 km range (NSM: 185 km)
      • 3D waypoint navigation; full 3D terminal evasive maneuvering
      • scalable warhead and capability to set precision strike point within larger target
      • sea and land targets with all weather and reattack capability
      • ESM hardened
      Sounds like requirements written to fit the Joint Strike Missile derived from the NSM. Particularly since it will be compatible with MK-41 VLS as well as aircraft.

      Although I'm a bit surprised Germany isn't going for the more capable LRASM. Without any requirement to fit internally on F-35s, a larger and more capable missile seems like it might be a good choice.
      Last edited by SteveDaPirate; 04 Apr 18,, 20:53.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
        Although I'm a bit surprised Germany isn't going for the more capable LRASM.
        As a missile in LRASM class the German Air Force already has some 600 Taurus missiles for use on its aircraft since a decade ago - which has virtually identical specs with a 1000 lbs warhead, high subsonic flight profile (up to Mach 0.95), a classified range that "exceeds 500 km" (and is probably higher than for - air-launched - LRASM as the missile also weighs 600 lbs more), terminal IIR seeker, anti-jamming measures etc. Taurus is actually probably rather better equipped for land targets compared to LRASM though, using GPS-independent image- and radar-based terrain recognition for navigation and having specific attack modes for such targets - which LRASM lacks.

        (Example for such an attack mode: when attacking a group of designated targets, e.g. vehicles or multiple buildings, on a Taurus the AI will on-site determine their positions and decide the optimum point for an airburst detonation to catch as many targets as possible).

        And lets just mark this bit in the datasheet, in particular the last two lines:
        Click image for larger version

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        ("anti-ship capability" in that sense mostly means evasion routines in contested airspace; the missile per se can attack both stationary and mobile ships, it's just not particularly good at it if they defend themselves)


        For the frigates, buying something NSM-derived is a tradeoff deal for Norway buying subs from... err, together with us. Realistically the Navy is also (mid- to long-term) looking to buy a "medium" anti-ship missile for helicopters again (and, possibly, the next generation ASW patrol aircraft), and NSM could be an option for that at the upper end.
        Last edited by kato; 04 Apr 18,, 22:17.

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        • #64
          What is meant by "Zero-launch capability"?

          I was thinking of LRASM as pulling shared duty for both MK-41 VLS cells as well as fixed wing aircraft, but I can see where the political considerations with regard to Norway and intent to equip helicopters makes the NSM/JSM more appealing.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
            What is meant by "Zero-launch capability"?
            Launch from a stationary launcher using a booster, i.e. from a ship or a ground launcher.

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            • #66
              SM-2 Block IIIA hangfire onboard F219 Sachsen last week:

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              • #67
                Originally posted by kato View Post
                SM-2 Block IIIA hangfire onboard F219 Sachsen last week
                Glad no one was seriously injured. Looks like it took the bast like a champ, maybe will even provide some damage control lessons learned.

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                • #68
                  Two "light stress related injuries", both back on duty immediately afterwards.

                  Compared to other VLS ships, the Mk41 on a Sachsen is relatively close to the bridge; a regular firing brings a 1-second flash of fire washing over the windows that people expect, this created a 20-second wall of fire just ahead of people. The windows as designed (for such firings; for high VLS usage there's armor plates that can be fitted over it) sustained that, the bridge crew of course still evacuated. The automatic firefighting system immediately flooded the whole VLS cell with freshwater as designed.

                  The ship is back at its homeport and will probably have to have at least the affected 8-cell unit replaced - according to the Navy the ship section with the VLS was "damaged" in the water deluge. Whole thing has a bigger impact though: Pending investigation of the cause all three F124 frigates may currently not use their Mk41.

                  Plus they'll need at least some paint, possibly some glass and probably some new antennas...

                  Bridge afterwards:
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                  VLS afterwards:
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                  The hangfire occured during a larger live missile firing series involving Sachsen and Lübeck. Sachsen immediately before fired one SM-2 and at least two RAM successfully.
                  Last edited by kato; 28 Jun 18,, 17:46.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by kato View Post
                    Whole thing has a bigger impact though: Pending investigation of the cause all three F124 frigates may currently not use their Mk41.
                    I don't have the US Navy accidents in front of me, but it's not the first time a SM-2 has hang-fired from a Mk 41.

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                    • #70
                      There was one a couple years ago in the USN where the booster of a SM-2 exploded after the missile cleared the VLS, creating a quite similar fireball - except at about mast height.

                      Problem is that the missile in the hangfire here was checked over and declared fine just before firing. So they'll need to look into that.

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                      • #71
                        I've read a number of articles and I'm not able to determine if it was truly a hang-fire or a failure of the booster, similar to what happened on USS The Sullivans, where the missile left the cannister before the motor blew up.

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                        • #72
                          From the one video i've seen of the explosion on The Sullivans, that one only was a 4-5 second fire (which was barely longer than a regular booster fire upon the deck) followed by an immediate burst that took the missile itself apart without any further fire onboard.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by JRT View Post
                            I'm sure they have their reasons, but I find it curious. Is that only small arms, or does that also include light weapons ( eg .50 BMG / 12.7x99mm )?
                            Somewhat interestingly the Interior Ministry has decided to arm the three new 86m OPVs - as one of the last acts of the previous minister before the new government in April. They were also considering a containerized MLG27 solution, but have apparently now decided on a 57mm Bofors.

                            The Federal Police is also getting three new, additional H215 Super Puma for the three ships.

                            Planned look (without 57mm):

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                            They're being built in Lithuania at Western Baltija Shipbuilding and then transferred to Fassmer in Germany for final outfitting. First finished hull was towed over in April.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by kato View Post
                              They already as-good-as-cancelled the planned MZES amphib/helo logistics ships that were supposed to replace our squadron tenders in the next decade and were considered a potential fallback option if the LHDs wouldn't be procured.
                              Originally posted by kato View Post
                              MZES is supposed to later augment this with a flexible transport/logistics capacity and support for a larger amount of helos (3+ per ship) as well as the possibility to host various support forces for the taskgroup on deployment.
                              Since we still need a replacement for the A404 tenders by the end of this decade MZES is back on in modified form as MUsE - "Medium Support Unit for Floating Units".

                              Requirements are to basically just replace the tenders with an updated design that addresses shortcomings in the current tenders with regard to "supporting all boat classes in the Navy".

                              That, for reference, mostly refers to support for K130 corvettes, which at their size pretty much require a full RAS-gear-equipped auxiliary with considerable stores. Second shortcoming is that - unified within a separate squadron - the tenders are currently also increasingly used for "solo runs" e.g. in patrols in the Mediterranean or for more general logistics in the Baltic Sea. The deficiency to address there is low armament - the A404 only carry two 27mm guns. Minor increases in general capacity are sought after, accomodate a couple more people for squadron staff or special forces, put 30 containers on it instead of 24 and so on. They'd also be used as training ships hosting full classrooms of naval academies for short terms, and anticipated future use includes hosting higher-level command staff than now for NATO purposes.

                              Constraints are that the crew numbers should not exceed current units (45 men per ship) and, realistically, they shouldn't be that much bigger to still slot in with existing infrastructure for the Baltic Sea - quay space in ports is quite relevant there, they already have to restation ships in order to make room for the five new K130. Numbers would stay the same, i.e. six ships still in their own separate squadron.



                              Now, this week, Fassmer Defence released a press statement that they're kinda reconsolidating their naval shipyard business, and along that line, that they're seeing themselves well-positioned for near-future contracts by the German Navy too - mentioning new small auxiliaries like the ELINT ships that will probably be tendered out next year and also new tugs for the German Navy. In the same press release, as an offside, they mention that "oh, did you know, we've also enlarged that MPV 70 Mk II design that we sold to Ecuador". It's now usable as a logistics ship, as a hospital ship, oh, and also as a tender. It looks like this:


                              (nevermind that they slapdashed their FPV90 design instead of MPV70 there, adding what they thought would be relevant)

                              Salient points:
                              • 40 crew + 200 additional accomodation
                              • 120m length, only 15% longer than A404 tenders - places it in the 5000-7000 ton displacement zone btw
                              • tender support systems with heavy crane, container space and full RAS boom
                              • three helo spots and hangar accomodating two CH-53K (!) - you know, just in case other things from MZES become relevant
                              • default frigate-level self-defense armament with two 21-cell RAM and a medium-caliber gun
                              Last edited by kato; 23 Jul 20,, 09:47.

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                              • #75
                                Effective Corona Stimulus Package for smaller German shipyards, with the government planning to buy:
                                • three new multi-purpose boats for the Navy "Technical Center for Ships and Naval Weapons", i.e. weapons research, replacing current 500-ton vessels.
                                • a new small coastal patrol boat for the Coastguard, specifically for Frontex deployments (similar deployments ongoing since 2016 in the Aegaean Sea).
                                • exercising an option to fully replace the three current 3,000-ton multipurpose ships used for the North Sea by the Coast Guard's Central Command for Maritime Emergencies with three new 5,000-ton ships.
                                • replacing the two current Navy-operated oil recovery ships with additional Coast Guard medium-sized multi-purpose ships.
                                • a new 10,000-ton dredger to keep German seaports free for the Federal Waterways Administration, co-stationed with the 2nd Flotilla of the Navy.


                                That's around 500 million Euro. Most of that will go in contracts to medium-sized shipyards such as Fassmer, Abeking & Rasmussen and Pella Sietas.
                                Last edited by kato; 27 Jul 20,, 20:17.

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