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Thread: German Navy Changes

  1. #16
    Senior Contributor blidgepump's Avatar
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    A ship for

    [QUOTE=kato;880065]Well, together with the F125 they're basically intended to fill the socalled Dauereinsatzaufgaben ("permanent missions") for the Navy. The Navy has a Level of Ambition that roughly keeps it with the current mission number and type, i.e. four missions which F125 and MKS180 can fill. That relieves the twelve high-intensity warfare ships of the navy (F124,F123,K130) from these "boring" missions.

    Currently, those four missions are:
    - OAE, passive surveillance
    - UNIFIL, active/armed surveillance
    - SNMG1, ASW taskforce
    - Atalanta, MIO w/boarding and escort

    With 4 F125 and 6 MKS180 in high-intensive use, four ships would be deployed on missions at any time. For the above set as an example distribution, that could be e.g. an F125 in Atalanta, a MKS180 configured for ASW in SNMG1, a MKS180 configured for SIGINT in OAE and UNIFIL having alternatingly a F125 (60% of the time) or MKS180 (40% of the time) deployed, depending on whether Germany is the lead nation for the taskforce.

    The MCM and diver functionality in my opinion is mostly a goody. The F125 will have the same functionality regarding MCM, simply by both being able to deploy mission-specific UUVs and USVs. Whoever thought up that module probably looked at what other low-intensity missions the Navy has done in the past twenty years - and the one that stands out there as a bigger deployment is Operation Southern Flank, the European MCM fleet clearing the Persian Gulf for the US Navy in 1991.

    To some extent, they're also shoveling additional roles on them just in case they don't get the money necessary for certain projects with the current cuts. Transocean MCM is also planned for the MZES future multi-purpose auxiliaries .....QUOTE]

    It would appear they are doing more than a little shoveling? Did the German leave anything off the plate for the F-125's to perform???

  2. #17
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    In comparison to MKS180? The F125 can act as taskgroup command ships, or be used as an offshore joint forces HQ at brigade level for deployed troops. Plus land-attack (nominally, when they get their midlife missile upgrade) and NGFS in support of onshore troops - Vulcano with the ASCA artillery interface they're putting on it means you've essentially got the almost exact equivalent firepower of a 120mm mortar platoon capable of firing up to 50 km deep onshore while the ship stays outside territorial waters. Also, the F125 carries two helos, making them more suitable for using the helo for patrols, ASW or the like.

    MZES is supposed to later augment this with a flexible transport/logistics capacity and support for a larger amount of helos (3+ per ship) as well as the possibility to host various support forces for the taskgroup on deployment.

  3. #18
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    MKS180 design proposals for current tender:

    Attachment 34380

    MTG Naval Design proposal - standard Meko Delta-hull, kinda looks like they took the F125 and switched some parts here and there. With I guess one hull section amidships removed.

    Attachment 34381

    P&S Shipyards proposal - with axe bow, stern gun, streamlined stealth hull. The P&S proposal actually looks a bit small to me when compared sizewise to that NH90 on the helicopter deck.

    Should be an interesting race for funds. P&S can pitch in that they don't want to go bankrupt again (and hence politicians from the GDR coast will run to secure votes by buttering them up), MTG can pitch in that they've had their fingers in every single frigate design of the German navy since the 1970s.

  4. #19
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    Germany is currently switching manning concepts for its submarines, moving to a set of eight crews for six submarines. The last two of those six will be commissioned in the next couple months.
    • U-31 (Type 212A Batch 1) took part in Northern Coasts in September, training among other things special forces delivery; she has since performed FOST training in the Northern Sea, also visiting U-35 in Norway.
    • U-32 (Type 212A Batch 1) continues to be used for long-term mission maneuvers. In April this year she pulled an 20-day dived Atlantic crossing, continued to coast the eastern seaboard for 8 days dived, then after a port visit - and hydrogen refueling - performed littoral reconnaissance in support of a US CBG as well as evasion of current/future US ASW assets (P-8, P-3 and MH-60R) for three months (first conventional submarine on blue side in WESTLANT). This included a rapid crew switchover in the US within ca 48 hours. Return was in September.
    • U-33 (Type 212A Batch 1) isn't being talked about, which means she's the one that's uh... on a strategic mission. Same one that Oker's on. You know what i'm talking about.
    • U-34 (Type 212A Batch 1) drydocked in yard overhaul until end of the month.
    • U-35 (Type 212A Batch 2) is planned to be commissioned this month. Was damaged in August in company trials in Norway before handover to the Navy though.
    • U-36 (Type 212A Batch 2) is planned to be commissioned in April 2014.

  5. #20
    Senior Contributor surfgun's Avatar
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    Now, when will the Germans develop some sort of amphibious capability? This would give Europe's healthiest economy some sort of waterborne disaster relief/peacekeeping capability.

  6. #21
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    LHDs are planned for 2017+ but currently zero-funded. Stated requirement is for a pair of Mistral-sized LHDs or a trio of Enforcer-sized LPDs. Due to a MoU from this summer these ships are supposed to be jointly procured and manned together with Poland.

    Planning isn't so much for disaster relief/peacekeeping for these ships though but for armed extraction and special forces operations, "robust" military horizontal/vertical insertion of forces and limited seabasing. For peacekeeping sea transport needs we have the ARK sealift ships, for disaster relief the AORs with their modular MERZ hospitals and 1500-ton / 78-TEU cargo capacity that is just enough for smaller autonomous support operations.
    Last edited by kato; 01 Dec 13, at 22:24.

  7. #22
    Senior Contributor surfgun's Avatar
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    Hopefully, this plan comes to fruition. It would be nice to see more of a contribution by this NATO country. It would be a very welcome addition to the international community. The German perspective would be welcome. At times it appears at least to me that the German government tries to limit the exposure of its military to the outside World. Like I said I believe that many believe that the Germans possess a skill set that may be currently under utilized.

  8. #23
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    I doubt the LHD procurement will really get anywhere, especially now that we get yet another conservative (Grand Coalition) government. The government coalition treaty emphasizes pooling-and-sharing, which for Germany means "why should we buy something the US / UK / France / the Netherlands operate already".

    They already as-good-as-cancelled the planned MZES amphib/helo logistics ships that were supposed to replace our squadron tenders in the next decade and were considered a potential fallback option if the LHDs wouldn't be procured.

  9. #24
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    First F125, Baden-Württemberg, has been moved to the final outfitting quay. Second-of-class, Nordrhein-Westfalen, now occupies the dock for assembly of its hull modules. Baden-Württemberg is expected to enter extensive fully operational sea trials next year.

    Design studies on the first two modules for MKS180 have started. These are an ASW module (towed sonar, basically) and as the second module use as arrest housing for enemy combatants captured in MIO operations.

  10. #25
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    The MKS180 project has been modified, mostly because the procurement office didn't get enough/fitting design studies in their tender. The original concept was to compare the tendered design studies with three off-the-shelf solutions in order to find an optimal product. The selection will now instead be handled internally.

    In addition, three different procurement options are being outlined:

    1) A limited option in which only a selection of modules can be installed; probably smaller than earlier envisioned, and considerably cheaper. Minimum operational limits would be agreed upon with the Navy. Envisioned crew size is 100 + accomodation for 20 helo crew plus 45 additional (165 total). This is essentially a realization of the LCS model.

    2) A full option in which all modules can be mounted in parallel - modules are at least towed sonar, special accomodation blocks, ECM/EW package, possibly drone MCM package. Fitted for but not with system upgrades leading to option 3. Basically an underarmed frigate with ease of modification/replacement/upgrade through modular build. Envisioned crew size is 100 + accomodation for 20 helo crew plus 60 additional (180 total).

    3) A "robust" option realizing option 2) with full armament options: AAW Layer 2 (ESSM or comparable), anti-ship missiles, 127mm main gun.

    Target for the project is to complete studies for all options by November, finalize Analysis Phase 2 by 2015, then tender the selected option out aiming towards a signed contract by 2017. First-of-class would be introduced by end of 2023.
    Last edited by kato; 29 Oct 14, at 09:05.

  11. #26
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    F125 design has apparently been revised to allow embarkment of two 15-ton helicopters (in hangar), although the ships will initially carry Sea Lynxes until we buy new helos. The Bundeswehr tested using ships as FARPs for army CH-53G a couple years ago (AORs in that case).

  12. #27
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    MKS180 project has been upgraded to frigates. They're still supposed to be as flexible as LCS though.

    Current target is a ship in the 7000-8000 ton range (i.e. same as F125) carrying:
    - 127mm main gun
    - Layer 2 AAW with minimum 32 ESSM (in "two Mk41")
    - eight heavy anti-ship missiles
    - default frigate self-defense suite
    - at least one ASW helicopter

    The ship will have two spaces for modules, each about 4 TEU size-wise: one underneath the flight deck, the other midships. The rear flexdeck will carry ASW (towed sonar), MCM (minehunting drones) or diver support (pressure chamber) modules; default is ASW. The midships flexdeck will carry MIO (arrest cells) or future modules; concepts possible for this position are e.g. command, intelligence or humanitarian support. Midships flexdeck can be loaded by onboard crane, rear flexdeck requires port facilities. Module change is touted as 48 hours like originally for LCS.
    Onboard subsystem support will be for one 15t helo plus UAVs (or two 15t helos instead) and two RHIBs (for boarding operations) or if required also larger combat boats. F125 supports the same number of helicopters plus four RHIBs, but not larger boats.

    Base properties otherwise pretty much match F125, with the addition of Level E1/1C ice class. Budget is 975 million per ship, with four to be procured (plus two options after 2030). F125 was 650 million each in 2007.

    MKS180 will be the first German Navy project to be tendered European-Union-wide. By current rumour mill four yards will be bidding for the contract: DCNS, Navantia, GNY and a TKMS/Lürssen consortium. DCNS and Navantia are seen as having no chances. The TKMS/Lürssen consortium will likely bid with the previous MTG design (they own MTG) at full "robust option". GNY is currently rumoured to possibly partner with BAe and bid an adapted Type 26 design, which closely matches the above in most points.

  13. #28
    Senior Contributor SteveDaPirate's Avatar
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    Sounds like a destroyer to me

    I'm assuming that it is intended to be operated more like a (huge) Frigate with less emphasis on maximizing VLS loads than something like a Burke class, but more focused on flexibility with helos/RHIBS/mine hunting and fleet defense with those healthy ESSM numbers.

  14. #29
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    Yeah, i've seen people saying "holy..., it's the size of a Burke" for the F125 too (the F125 is about 2m shorter than an AB DDG, a bit wider and with half the draught).

    Officially the intended mission spectrum is the same as for F125. I.e. mostly maritime interdiction operations including embargo operations and anti-piracy, support of special forces and support of on-shore land forces operations. Within this spectrum, F125 is apparently more intended for the command/oversight/long-range support centerpiece role, while MKS180 provides the escort 3D firepower in such operations. Both are meant to be forward-deployed for up to two years with crew changes in theater, and are supposed to last without a yard visit for 68 months.

    Long-range AAW would be added on-demand by the three F124 frigates. There's currently - preparing for midlife upgrade - a study underway on whether and how to possibly add ballistic missile defense capacity to those, at least sensor-wise - mostly focused on replacing their SMART-L long-range radar due to obsolescence at that time. Study should be finished end of this year.

  15. #30
    Senior Contributor SteveDaPirate's Avatar
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    Is the idea for the F124s to give up some SM-2s and ESSMs in favor of SM-3s for ballistic missile defense, or just to upgrade the radar to be able to provide tracking and guidance for SM-3s launched from a Burke or Tico?

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