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Most decisive battle of World War 2

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  • #46
    You know, every one of these major battles were crucial to the outcome of the war. Alone and if the only battle ever fought, they would be almost insignificant. But each one is tied in with the others and the loss of any one of them would have altered the course of the war drastically.

    The old adage:

    For want of a nail, a horseshoe was lost.
    For want of a horseshoe, a horse was lost.
    For want of a horse, a messenger was lost.
    For want of a messenger, a message was lost.
    For want of a message, a battle was lost.
    For want of a battle, a war was lost.
    Able to leap tall tales in a single groan.

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    • #47
      It pains me to agree with Big K and the Office of Engineers but I have to agree -- Pearl Harbor. Once the US entered the war it was over for the Axis. They couldn't match our protection and we were immune to strategic bombing and attack. It became a war of attrition and the US had the means to frind it out in the long haul.

      The Russaians may have had the harder battles, but part of their succeses came from the destruction of Germany factories and their ability to replace lost war material by American (and British) strategic bombing.
      per ardua ad astra

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      • #48
        Originally posted by RustyBattleship View Post
        Norway and Greenland.

        The Germans took over Norway through Norway's fascist President Quisling. The Arctic Circle does project down into Norway and Tellamark isn't far from it. Tellamark was critical in producing Deuterium (Heavy Water) for Germany's atomic bomb research.

        Even after the US took posession of Greenland from Denmark, German units were still there and required resupply if not an evacuation dog sled. Most were hunted down and captured by US Coast Guard personnel.

        Oh, by the way. Though Polar Bears eat Seals, they don't eat Penguins.

        Reread your post and think about it.
        Notable chunks of Arctic front fought in Finland. And when I was talking about fighting penguins and polar bears, I was just being sarcastic. I know penguins are south pole.

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        • #49
          Feanor Reply

          "Notable chunks of Arctic front fought in Finland."

          I'm unsure about this. The front never really moved, did it? How many major operations or battles were fought in this area? I think that it quickly became apparant that the Germans, Finns, and Soviets were mutually incapable of militarily altering the arctic front. Hell, it hardly changed further south on the Karelian isthmus. The terrain, weather, and absence of road networks relegated this front to patrol actions intended to interdict the Murmansk-Moscow link-usually unsuccessfully and the axis defense of the Petsamos nickel production.

          More than anything would be the air-sea battle fought over lend-lease on the Norwegian approaches to Murmansk. Of course, the Soviets weren't much help in securing their own supply routes. Allied convoys became accustomed to fighting their way through without Soviet assistance to keep the Red Army from collapsing for lack of critical basic needs.;)
          Last edited by S2; 09 Nov 07,, 10:50.
          "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
          "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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          • #50
            Finns AFAIK refused to move beyond their 1939 border line . Mannerheim refused it because all they wanted was to get back their territories and not to be seen as agressors .
            But I could be wrong here . Could be ´lack of capability seen as virtue´.
            If i only was so smart yesterday as my wife is today

            Minding your own biz is great virtue, but situation awareness saves lives - Dok

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            • #51
              You're wrong on a different count. The finns did actually move into Karelia past the old border.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Feanor View Post
                You're wrong on a different count. The finns did actually move into Karelia past the old border.
                Yes , turns out You are right.
                If i only was so smart yesterday as my wife is today

                Minding your own biz is great virtue, but situation awareness saves lives - Dok

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                • #53
                  The Finns didn't press any attacks on Leningrad, however.

                  Siege of Leningrad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                  Continuation War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


                  Interesting to see how a minor power can attempt to wage its own limited war within a total war between great powers.

                  Also shows how wise it is for statesmen to always distrust good fortune.

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                  • #54
                    I chose Stalingrad, it humiliated Hitler. This is also where urban warfare created the mold of all future urban engagements.
                    Whoever is unjust let him be unjust still
                    Whoever is righteous let him be righteous still
                    Whoever is filthy let him be filthy still
                    Listen to the words long written down
                    When the man comes around- Johnny Cash

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by braindead View Post
                      Finns AFAIK refused to move beyond their 1939 border line . Mannerheim refused it because all they wanted was to get back their territories and not to be seen as agressors .
                      But I could be wrong here . Could be ´lack of capability seen as virtue´.
                      Originally posted by cape_royds View Post
                      Interesting to see how a minor power can attempt to wage its own limited war within a total war between great powers.

                      Also shows how wise it is for statesmen to always distrust good fortune.
                      I suppose the only reason why Finns refused to move beyond 1939-border line because they weren't assured which one of great powers will win.

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                      • #56
                        Modern Wars are decided by industrial power , no matter how many
                        battles could be won by the Axis. The end result could not be in their favor.
                        Just think about fighting against the power of USA+USSR+others, must
                        really have some doubts in believing the intelligence of the Axis leadership.

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                        • #57
                          yugoslvia/bombing of belgrade

                          o.k. I know compared to stalingrad..midway etc it dosen't figure too highly on most historans list BUT the german high command lamented the loss of precious time(1 month) spent on this minor distraction as they stood on the russian tundra within sight of Moscow as the winter snows ground their advance to a halt.;)

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                          • #58
                            Stalingrad was a monumental battle but how much of the Soviet victory is attributable to the weather? If this had been summer would the same result have occurred?

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                            • #59
                              Elbmek Reply

                              My thoughts. First, there were, IMHO, two elements to the Soviet victory, 1.) denying Stalingrad as a coup de main by German forces in late August, 1942 and, 2.) enveloping the 6th Army during Operation Uranus.

                              To the German advantage would an open Volga River throughout the battle. However, it should be noted that the Volga remained open, I believe, until shortly before Uranus was conducted. As such, Soviet re-supply/reinforcement of Chulikov's Stalingrad garrison was conducted across open water throughout the most critical days of the battle- before the Soviet counter-offensive.

                              The days would have been longer. This works both ways. Longer days means greater flying time for the Luftwaffe resupply of Stalingrad after the encirclement. Longer days means more time per day for the less-operationally skilled Soviet mobile forces to press their encirclement under conditions of visibility. Soviet mechanized offensive operations had not yet developed the nuanced command & control skills necessary to press an assault with coherance in conditions of darkness.

                              Terrain would be dusty and dry instead of frozen and snowy. Uranus began on the southern wing of 6th Army against the Romanians in conditions of icy fog and low visibility. While these conditions would not have impeded mechanized forces, summer weather would possibly improve the mobility of the infantry forces for both the Soviet and German/Hungarian, and Romanian forces most immediately affected. Too, the Italians along the Voronezh front further north would have a slight improvement in their mobility.

                              Aerial reconnaissance of Soviet assembly areas both north and south of Stalingrad may have been improved by flying time and visibility, or not. Certainly, wooded copses would have afforded concealment for Soviet assembly of assault forces along the flanks. Covered crossings of the Volga, however, would have few hours of darkness to facilitate Soviet movement into forward assembly areas and would require the ferrying of all armored elements to the west bank. I don't know how assembly of these forces were handled by the Soviet General Staff in actuality, however. When, specifically, did the Volga freeze? Was it's thickness sufficient to sustain the weight of T-34s and KV1s moving into assembly areas just prior to the offensive? If not, then ferry operations would have been required to reach west bank assembly areas.

                              Elbmek, I'm uncertain how all that shakes out, but those would be the mitigating factors that I foresee offhand.
                              "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                              "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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                              • #60
                                I chose stalingrad.. Hitler became fixated on this one city, he could have avoided the entire quagmire and still achieve his goals..but instead, in his madness he sent thousands of Germans into a giant meat grinder.

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