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  • #76
    Originally posted by DonJasper
    Thanks. Programmer actually. So I likes military history, got a desk job and have a lethal combination of curiosity and a short attention span.
    the post didn't read like 'short attention span' to me ;)
    In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

    Leibniz

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by lemontree
      DonJasper,
      Nice discourse. Happy.
      But we (Indians) still believe that the war in Iraq needs to be won by the US. We have discussed the reasons in other threads, hence I sha'nt repeat them here.
      I trusted that the deep thinkers within the government to take Iraq seriously. Now when I mean serious (for a military operation) I mean planning for the worst, preparing for the worst, and if the worst doesn't happen - then you happily refund the difference to grateful taxpayers. I thought winning Iraq was important enough to do it right the first time. Period. If the public didn’t support the necessary measures – then reluctantly pass on the war.

      I've raged. And I've cried. Did everything but vomit in my trash can. That’s what I do when I want to win more than the neocons (or be more Catholic than the Pope??).

      I look forward to the day when the US government figures out a way to show the average Joe Arab something other than the pointy end of our spear. Instead of shooting they might be yelling: "I think your lifestyle is decadent, immoral and disgusting!" (whisper) "So how much do you want for your x-ray sunglasses?"

      I wish some ancestor of mine had bothered to write down their experiences whenever they lived through some historic event. Either they're the most boring people on the face of the earth, or the most illiterate. :)
      We're optimistic. They're p*ssed off. Another day in Iraq.

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by smilingassassin
        Canada has a governer general, does that make us a Colony?
        I've no idea, I know nothing about Canada's political status, every commonwealth country must make up their own minds about how much authority is vested in 'The Crown'
        In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

        Leibniz

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by DonJasper
          . Instead of shooting they might be yelling: "I think your lifestyle is decadent, immoral and disgusting!" (whisper) "So how much do you want for your x-ray sunglasses?" :)
          LOL
          In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

          Leibniz

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by lemontree
            DonJasper,
            Nice discourse. Happy.
            But we (Indians) still believe that the war in Iraq needs to be won by the US. We have discussed the reasons in other threads, hence I sha'nt repeat them here.
            Yea know I've been thinking about my response to your point. There's someone else who articulated where I'm coming from better than I can. I tried to find a transcript of it, but couldn't. So I had to do it myself. On 9/15/2004 Sen. John Luger, Chairman of the Senate Forgeign Relations Committee, read a letter he received from an unnamed Marine. A 2nd Lt. platoon leader In Iraq.

            “My guys never fail to step up to any challenged we are given as a platoon. It is pretty awe inspiring to roll up on what you suspect to be an IED, that’s an improvised explosive device, on the side of the road. Common here. And to hear one of your PFC’s say “No problem sir” when you say to him you need to take a closer look before the platoon can pass through the area. Then to watch him sling his rifle across his back crouch dangerously close to the suspected device with a set of binoculars in his hands to confirm whether or not it’s an explosive. Makes you feel very proud.

            This war one that cannot be won by Marines and Soldiers. The only thing we can do is to keep a lid on it and buy time. We chase the mujahideen around and in doing so catch and kill a few, or at least deter their actions. However in a society with no jobs, faltering economy and little or no infrastructure there is plenty of incentive to fight. The incentive needs to be removed. Marines and soldiers don’t remove it. Civil Affairs teams and NGO’s do. And there are not enough of these people in Iraq. And they are not organized in such a way that they can respond to specific needs. You are less likely to shoot the guy who is trying to building a school for your kids and turn on your water. These individuals need to take greater risks and be out there with us.

            That same PFC that who will run up dangerously close to what could be a command detonated explosive will less willingly and adeptly build a school or turn on the power for a village. It is not in his job description. However he will do a superior job providing security for the civilians who do perform these tasks.”

            You can find the video on CSpan.org

            If we had a chance to win this thing: Falluja would be buzzing with generators, circular saws, carpenters, tile setters, brick layers. Leave the bulldozer at home - hand out shovels and pay 100 Iraqi's to clear the streets. There would've been a construction forward observer - calling back the stuff that's going to be needed to fix whatever he sees being damaged. We’d leave the place in better shape than we found it.

            Professional soldiers know soldiering. They know prepare a firing position in a house. But they don't know how to turn a firing position into a house (at least one that I would want to live in! ) Carpet cleaners, Painters. (No need to repair the furniture is there ) Windows.

            Where's all the other government departments? Defense is well represented in Iraq - how about Transportation, Commerce, Agriculture, Energy. Iraq needs all that stuff - where are they? The Iraq war is a half-measure of the US Government, and I don't know why that is. < insert range of emotions here >

            So when I say I think that the military has been put in a no-win situation, and is making a d*mn fine attempt to make the best of it - I'm not faulting the military. "It is not in his job description." (Well not the Indians anyway - their bosses are another matter, but let's get the Indians home first.)
            Last edited by DonJasper; 02 Dec 04,, 22:03.
            We're optimistic. They're p*ssed off. Another day in Iraq.

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by DonJasper
              Defense is well represented in Iraq - how about Transportation, Commerce, Agriculture, Energy.
              Those other departments are domestic, they do not operate beyond our borders. Independant contractors and military engineers do the rest of the work, and there are billions of dollars worth of them in Iraq right now.
              No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack
              I agree completely with this Administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
              even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
              He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It’s the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Confed999
                Those other departments are domestic, they do not operate beyond our borders. Independant contractors and military engineers do the rest of the work, and there are billions of dollars worth of them in Iraq right now.
                Confed,
                You are referring to the PMCs. Their job is to suppliment the tasks of the US forces, they don't do development work. I think DonJasper, was talking about the civil servants who specialise in development work.

                Cheers!...on the rocks!!

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by lemontree
                  Their job is to suppliment the tasks of the US forces, they don't do development work. I think DonJasper, was talking about the civil servants who specialise in development work.
                  There are civilian contractors there from many trades, masons, carpenters, electricians, etc.. Our company was offered a place among them, but I won't go, nor will I send any of my guys, there without a rifle on my sholder and a pistol in my belt.
                  No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack
                  I agree completely with this Administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
                  even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
                  He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It’s the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    back on topic

                    Horowitzs piece is weird.. the main thrust of it appears aimed at those who are opposed to the war..

                    Which is odd as the reason we are in iraq appears to be a decision to fight some internal political battle with-in the US. The reason we are in iraq is because we want to prove you wrong.

                    this applies to many anti war positions as well..

                    Over time it is becoming increasing clear that the politics of the situation was dictated by a battle for the agenda in the US rather than embracing any reality outside it.

                    Boris
                    london

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Confed999
                      I stopped reading at this point. This never happened. Stop getting your information from left wing extremists and tabliods.
                      Yes it did, I even saw it on television and heard him saying it. (even heard him say something about 15 min weapon deployment....)
                      Where are you getting your news from ?
                      "It is a little knowledge of science that makes you an Atheist, and it is an in-depth study of science that makes you a believer in God Almighty". [Sir Francis]

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Confed999
                        I stopped reading at this point. This never happened. Stop getting your information from left wing extremists and tabliods.

                        BBC link


                        24 September 2003

                        The dossier is published with a foreword from Tony Blair, which says: "The document discloses that his military planning allows for some of the WMD to be ready within 45 minutes of an order to use them."

                        The prime minister tells MPs the intelligence concludes that Saddam Hussein "has existing and active military plans for the use of chemical and biological weapons, which could be activated within 45 minutes, including against his own Shia population".

                        London's Evening Standard carries the headline: "45 minutes from attack".


                        I can attest to validity of this item as i watched the debate live

                        the issue really boils down to why campbell didn't contact the standard to "clarfy" over the "claims" as opposed to his intervention over gillighan.. ie when the press overplayed and distorted the danger they allowed this to continue but when it was that they are liars they reacted..

                        there was no good faith to present a balanced assetment to the public


                        Boris
                        london
                        Last edited by mididoctors; 13 Dec 04,, 18:41.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          The Dodgy Dossier?


                          "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

                          I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

                          HAKUNA MATATA

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Nisaar
                            Yes it did, I even saw it on television and heard him saying it. (even heard him say something about 15 min weapon deployment....)
                            Where are you getting your news from ?
                            Please show me the quote/speach/whatever, where Blair said "that if saddam felt like it he could hit london with chemical or biological warhead 45 mins after he gave the order".
                            Originally posted by mididoctors
                            The dossier is published with a foreword from Tony Blair, which says: "The document discloses that his military planning allows for some of the WMD to be ready within 45 minutes of an order to use them."

                            The prime minister tells MPs the intelligence concludes that Saddam Hussein "has existing and active military plans for the use of chemical and biological weapons, which could be activated within 45 minutes, including against his own Shia population".
                            I still don't see where Blair said London was gone in 45 minutes if Saddam felt like it.
                            Originally posted by mididoctors
                            I can attest to validity of this item as i watched the debate live
                            I read the transcript. ;)
                            Originally posted by mididoctors
                            when the press overplayed and distorted the danger
                            That's what the press does.
                            Originally posted by mididoctors
                            they allowed this to continue but when it was that they are liars they reacted..
                            Yep, that's about how it works everywhere.
                            No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack
                            I agree completely with this Administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
                            even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
                            He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It’s the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Confed999

                              Yep, that's about how it works everywhere.
                              therefore its not lying?

                              Are you basically saying you support this misrepresentation as a necessary evil?


                              Boris
                              london

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Confed999

                                I still don't see where Blair said London was gone in 45 minutes if Saddam felt like it.
                                he didn't... deliberating creating speech that has a broad interpretation while specifically avoiding definitive claims is a highly skilled and premeditate form of lying.

                                the 'cover" built into Blair's speech is appalling inditement to the depths spin has brought the standard of public debate.

                                If you wish to defend this behavior I think it reflects badly on your integrity.

                                You wish to associate yourself with this crap?

                                Boris
                                london

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