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  • 300

    Saw it last night. Very good movie. Go see it.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

  • #2
    I wont be able to see it today, but I will see it sometimes this week. Love to see how a mere 300 fought against a million madmen. Must be truely the pinnacle of Western greatness crowned, spiced-up and adorned by Greek exageration.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by xerxes View Post
      ...Love to see how a mere 300 fought against a million madmen. Must be truely the pinnacle of Western greatness crowned, spiced-up and adorned by Greek exageration.
      Lol. Well, I read one of the problems with ancient historical sources is that, Greek sources in particular, tend to say 'a million' when they actually meant more like 'much larger numbers than us, not sure how many'. Given the logistics / technology of the time, most modern historians reduce those 'estimates' of a 'million' by a factor of 10 or so (i.e. 100,000). It's also interesting that the '300' Spartans have gone down in legend, but the 1,700 or so 'allies' who were also present seem to have been forgotten. Of course, it's also about how a relatively small number of 'elite' troops can hold off a much larger number of 'average' troops, given the limited frontage of the pass.

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      • #4
        There's no way in hell that there was a million man army at that time. It would be simply too unsustainable to support by sea. Persia just did not have the capacity to feed & clothe & arm a million man army by sea or even by land.

        A more believable number would be less than 100,000. Hell I think that's way too high if a 300 man force can hold that contigent for so long. I would say it was around 25000 to 35000 total with 10 000 facing against 300 and the rest supporting forces or diverted somewhere else.

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        • #5
          The fact that there were 100,000 in total hardly matters - even 10,000 would quickly overwhelm only 300 men (at least 'mortal' men - if they're superheroes then all bets are off ;) ). The key was that the fighting was in a narrow pass with frontage for only a few hundred at most. In any case, there weren't just 300 defenders, there were more like 2,000 - 300 of them were Spartans and the others were allies from elsewhere.

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          • #6
            I always go with the figure of 200,000 army for the Persians. Another misconception is that, it was not 200,000 Persians rather it was 200,000 Persian army, which had troops from India, Libya, Egypt, Assyria, Media, Babylon, Saracens, Scythians and Lydia, to say the least. Xerxes's navy was mostly an Egyptien squadron. So there were no 200,000 Persians persay. Also, I would think that of the 200,000 if we reduce the naval forces, the royal guards, the Immortals, the emperor's court lackies, princes and dukes and their bodyguard, the effective army is down to 120,000 men. Even, at that effective stregnth, I could be wrong (sense I have not read anything on the subject for a longtime) but I would assume, Xerxes would have divided his force in respective of the priority of the tasks athand and, therefore a passage that was manned by 300 Spartans and some thousend Greek allies, would have probably had recieved equal priority inrespective to its military strength. Therefore, it would quite probable that the better armed Spartans and allies fought against peacemeal forces, till Xerxes decided that they have to wiped out.

            I cannot believe that 300 better armed, better armoured and better discipline can defeat a force of 30,000. That a 100 man per each Spartan. Let alone, a force of 100,000 or a million.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
              There's no way in hell that there was a million man army at that time. It would be simply too unsustainable to support by sea. Persia just did not have the capacity to feed & clothe & arm a million man army by sea or even by land.

              A more believable number would be less than 100,000. Hell I think that's way too high if a 300 man force can hold that contigent for so long. I would say it was around 25000 to 35000 total with 10 000 facing against 300 and the rest supporting forces or diverted somewhere else.

              It is as Kenny said, the concept of a million man army was Greek of saying that it was very big. Arabs equally had the same ways, but they didnot use a million, rather used fourscore. So everything was four time bigger than theirs.

              As far as million-man army in general, back than it was impossible, only in 1812 did the barrier came close to be broken when Napoleon invaded Russia with 650,000-man Grand Armee. Even then his genuis could not transfered into physical world without the invention of wireless communication, which characterize the million-man armies of Franco-Prussian war and the Great War. It was the the mass-conscription of French Revolution followed with wirless radio some a century later that dawned the age of million-man armies.

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              • #8
                People have a tendency to exaggerate. This was especially true way back when there was no way to document anything. They had to go by hear-say. Most historians put the Persian forces at 200,000 to 250,000. A good portion of that force was loaded up on boats.

                Thermopylae is a natural bottleneck. It was chosen by the Greeks to negate or minimize Persian's numerical superiority. There was no doubt about that.

                Another thing about warfares back then was that it could be more ritualistic than warfare today. There could be people calling each other out and/or fighting on even numbers. Persians could have observed rules like this and fought the Spartans in small groups at a time or even individual duels.

                These factors COULD contribute to the legend of the 300 Spartans.

                Nevertheless, the movie was really close to the graphic novel, which was quite close to recorded and verifiable historical event.
                "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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                • #9
                  Gunut, the movie trailer states a million man against 300. That alone makes it far from the realm of reality. Though, I agree that it is perhapes closer to the graphic novel then the actual events.

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                  • #10
                    Don't forget people that it is a movie. :)


                    I am suppose to go see this Monday
                    "To dream of the person you would like to be is to waste the person you are."-Sholem Asch

                    "I always turn to the sports page first, which records people's accomplishments. The front page has nothing but man's failures."-Earl Warren

                    "I didn't intend for this to take on a political tone. I'm just here for the drugs."-Nancy Reagan, when asked a political question at a "Just Say No" rally

                    "He no play-a da game, he no make-a da rules."-Earl Butz, on the Pope's attitude toward birth control

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by xerxes View Post
                      Gunut, the movie trailer states a million man against 300. That alone makes it far from the realm of reality. Though, I agree that it is perhapes closer to the graphic novel then the actual events.
                      I thought about it after watching it. I found out why some things were exaggerated.

                      The entire story was told by a surviving Spartan, who was ordered by Leonidas to go back to Sparta and rally the Greeks. This man probably had never seen a Persian before. This man probably had never seen anything outside of Greece before. How would he describe the barbaric Persians, their flamboyant king (in his eyes), and a myriad of exotic creatures from Asia? He exaggerates.

                      If we can put ourselves in the shoes of this storyteller from 25 centuries ago, who had never seen anyone outside of Greece before, who didn't have the concept of what "a million" is, this is entirely plausible.

                      This is not an objective look at history. This is a subjective look at a battle told by a survivor of that battle who wants to rally his people.
                      "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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                      • #12
                        There were other survivors, 16,000 in fact.

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                        • #13
                          16,000 what?

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                          • #14
                            The original force was 17,000 strong. When Leonidas discovered the betrayal, he ordered the rest of the Greek armies home while the Spartens and Thespians stayed

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                            • #15
                              Actuall my mistake, I just checked, it's 7000 Greeks of which 6000 retreated.

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