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  • pistol ballistics

    Does anyone know why they don't load lightweight pistol bullets into magnum calibers for ultimate expansion. A lightweight bullet, say 100 grain, in a large caliber say .44 magnum or higher would have very high energy and not terrible recoil. They always seem to load it for maximum penetration, ie big game hunting. Large caliber lightweight projectiles are more efficient in their absorbtion of energy than heavy ones. I guess it has to do with inertia and the work done in the cylinder. A copper jacket would be need to prevent fouling, but other than that I can't see why noones tried it.
    Cupofwrath.com, what the bible says...

  • #2
    Originally posted by bittercreek View Post
    Does anyone know why they don't load lightweight pistol bullets into magnum calibers for ultimate expansion. A lightweight bullet, say 100 grain, in a large caliber say .44 magnum or higher would have very high energy and not terrible recoil. They always seem to load it for maximum penetration, ie big game hunting. Large caliber lightweight projectiles are more efficient in their absorbtion of energy than heavy ones. I guess it has to do with inertia and the work done in the cylinder. A copper jacket would be need to prevent fouling, but other than that I can't see why noones tried it.
    You could use aluminum, but I wouldn't push this too far. Next thing you know the EPA will outlaw regular bullets because they may cause lead poisoning.

    No kidding. EPA already requires forced air ventilation on indoor firing ranges to push 500 cubic feet per minute on EACH firing line to keep airborne lead away from the shooters.

    Hmmm. I thought that was what a gun was supposed to do; send airborne lead downrange away from the shooters.

    Oh well. I'm not a politician so I don't think illogically.
    Able to leap tall tales in a single groan.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by bittercreek View Post
      Does anyone know why they don't load lightweight pistol bullets into magnum calibers for ultimate expansion. A lightweight bullet, say 100 grain, in a large caliber say .44 magnum or higher would have very high energy and not terrible recoil. They always seem to load it for maximum penetration, ie big game hunting. Large caliber lightweight projectiles are more efficient in their absorbtion of energy than heavy ones. I guess it has to do with inertia and the work done in the cylinder. A copper jacket would be need to prevent fouling, but other than that I can't see why noones tried it.
      The problem with that is the diameter of the bullet.

      Light weight + large diameter = low density, meaning it won't retain speed well.

      The lightest bullet I've ever seen on a 357 mag is 110 gr.

      If you want to use 100 gr. on a 44 caliber round, then it should be a sabot round to keep the bullet diameter down and hold the energy/momentum down range. Sabot round will be far more expensive than a regular cast/plated heavy bullet.

      In a way, your idea is practiced in the new FN 5.7mm round. It's a regular pistol caliber case necked down to 5.7mm to speed up a very light bullet to punch through body armor.
      "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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      • #4
        they did, many times, check this out
        TRÈS HAUTE VITESSE
        Attached Files
        "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" B. Franklin

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        • #5
          Thanks Oman

          Cool, so I guess the idea of high speed high energy pistol rounds is workable. Looking at the wound depth of haute vitesse they were all under 6" which is really inadequate. However the stats are also for the smaller cartridges, not the big ones. Doing some quick calculations from reloading charts I found that lightening a bullet can only be more efficient to a point, because if too little resistance is provided by the bullet it won't convert the force to kinetic energy but to heat, and you will just have a big flash and alot of heat. To achieve much higher velocities like those of rifle rounds you need to increase sectional density to provide more resistance to the expanding gasses, and increase barrel length. Also too heavy a round will not be efficient because of the enormous inertia. So there is a range of efficiency. That being said I think many big bore handguns would be more useful in a PD role with lighter loadings, because the loadings are all on the heavy side for efficiency.
          Cupofwrath.com, what the bible says...

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          • #6
            Originally posted by RustyBattleship View Post
            You could use aluminum, but I wouldn't push this too far. Next thing you know the EPA will outlaw regular bullets because they may cause lead poisoning.

            No kidding. EPA already requires forced air ventilation on indoor firing ranges to push 500 cubic feet per minute on EACH firing line to keep airborne lead away from the shooters.

            Hmmm. I thought that was what a gun was supposed to do; send airborne lead downrange away from the shooters.

            Oh well. I'm not a politician so I don't think illogically.
            REALLY? Is that what that system is for? I thought it was just a nice, well thinking thing of my range to lessen the chance of me breathing in powder components when each round is fired.

            When I first started shooting, I would shut the vents on that because I would get cold but now I keep it open, always, and bring something more to wear at the range. Of course, that may be just "habit" in addition to thinking more about my health these days. In Texas, just about every place is over air conditioned and one learns to take a sweater with them everywhere.

            On Sunday, I was a the range, assigned a lane and guess what? The previous person had shut down the vents. Needless to say, I opened them up again before starting.

            Whether lead poisoning, powder poisoning, or whatever, there are risks to this 'sport' that will probably eventually catch up with me ...... assuming that that the recoil doesn't shake apart the body first ....... assuming that I don't have a DCS accident first ...... assuming that I don't buy it some first when some punk tries to rob my castle ..... assuming ..........
            ------------------------------------------------------
            (After watching an old woman go by with her voodoo doll. "Just look at that hate. Boy, when I am old, I hope I'm kind and just darning socks."--Gabrielle
            "I wouldn't worry about it that much ........ people in our line of work usually don't live long enough to be that old."--Xena
            "That's comforting.", (w,stte), Xena "The Prodigal")

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            • #7
              Originally posted by RustyBattleship View Post
              You could use aluminum, but I wouldn't push this too far. Next thing you know the EPA will outlaw regular bullets because they may cause lead poisoning.

              No kidding. EPA already requires forced air ventilation on indoor firing ranges to push 500 cubic feet per minute on EACH firing line to keep airborne lead away from the shooters.

              Hmmm. I thought that was what a gun was supposed to do; send airborne lead downrange away from the shooters.

              Oh well. I'm not a politician so I don't think illogically.
              Too late. Lead has already been banned for duck and goose hunting in many areas. lead is a nasty metal that takes decades to get out of your system so don't sweat the vents.
              Removing a single turd from the cesspool doesn't make any difference.

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              • #8
                I handle firearms and ammunition pretty much every day, so I'm kinda worried about lead building up in my system.
                "The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world. So wake up, Mr. Freeman. Wake up and smell the ashes." G-Man

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by leib10 View Post
                  I handle firearms and ammunition pretty much every day, so I'm kinda worried about lead building up in my system.
                  I got a temporary reaction to lead poisoning once way back in the 1960's when I was a ship fitter on swing shift. It wasn't from a shooting range either. It was on board a Submarine Tender and we had to line a compartment with lead that would stow containers of atomic waste. There was lead in the air at all times in the form of fumes escaping along the eges of where steel cover plates were being welded over the lead to dust from lead wool that was being packed in with small air hammers to close up the gaps around the edges of the lead panels.

                  The welders had special air masks to wear, the air hammer operators had special dust masks, gloves and coveralls to wear but us ship fitters were only issued fresh coveralls each night. No gloves and no dust masks. I went out to a five and dime store and bought a box full of large red and blue bandanas. Before going down in the "hole" we would soak the bandanas in water and wear them like cowboy stage coach robbers.

                  I was the lead ship fitter on the job and handled most of the lead panels in one way or the other. One of our air hammer operators thought he was too tough to need a filter mask. He was a big burly guy and it took four of us to push and pull him up the ladder where we had a Stokes litter waiting for a crane to lift him out of the ship and get him to a hospital.
                  Able to leap tall tales in a single groan.

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                  • #10
                    leib10,I also handle firearms and ammo regularly and do some bullet and fishing sinker casting.I also worked on lead sheath telephone cables for years.The worst danger from lead is ingesting it or breathing airborne particules.I have been tested and have a "normal" amount of lead for a person my age.(43)Your best defense is to wash your hands after each session and do not eat,drink or smoke while handling lead.On a strange side note,beware when buying Christmas lights from the large chain stores.Many of them sell cheap sets from China which have a relatively high lead content on the wire coating.
                    "Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves, therefore, are its only safe depositories." Thomas Jefferson

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